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billvon

Security risk from foreign terrorists

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normiss

Why then is a christian neighbor stockpiling an arsenal and praising his Allah ok?

There is ZERO difference.



I understand your position. For me, there is a major difference.

As a Christian I desire others accept Christ. Therefore, I witness for Him and share the good news of what He has done in my life.

Radical Islamists demand that others accept Allah or die. They have a stated manifesto to take over America, see Brigitte Gabriel for more info.

How do I tell the difference? I can't because they are instructed to lie and remain in sleeper cells until such time to act. Therefore, I would notify the authorities to seek allied help.

One of the first things I would do while waiting is to invite them to my church and observe and evaluate their behavior.

I remain prepared for the worst case scenario.

There remains the good, the bad and the ugly.

Fortunately, I live in an area surrounded by the good. We have some bad and the ugly are way out in the fringe, mostly the Atlanta area.

The Holy Spirit guided my wife and me to this area as a reward for a hard life well fought. This is an area of a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit in 1906. For reasons known to God we have a huge influx of Christian Floridians up here as well. It is as hard to find a GA cracker up here as it is to find a FL cracker down there.

We believe God is separating the sheep from the goats. That is why I proclaim the warnings to prepare for prejudicial hard times, what I call SHTF. A phrase borrowed from Selco.

President Trump is bringing things to a head. It is going to be a battle of good vs evil. Jonathan Cahn has stated that 9-11 was the harbinger of approaching catastrophe.

Christ is the only true life assurance.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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airdvr

This question is for all of you who don't want the wall built. Why? Honestly...why do you care whether or not there is a wall on our southern border?



For me, 100% environmental. I care far more about wildlife than people. Because, people suck...

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THIS!!! P.S., I love you! ;)


TriGirl

***


In 2000, the Department of Homeland Security built a wall in the Tucson, Arizona, sector. Over 15 years, border apprehensions from CBP dropped by 90 percent. In 2005, DHS built a wall in Yuma, Arizona. There, border apprehensions dropped 95 percent over nine years, according to CBP data. These are just a couple of places where we’ve built a wall and the wall has worked.

I was stationed at Yuma for a few years. The guys working security of the base fence line to the south said they sometimes would get border crossers come up to the ammo depot at night and ask if it was the gate to America (lights were bright in the dark desert). So, a reason to put something at Yuma (maybe 15 miles worth) and Tucson (another 20-ish miles?) is that it is pretty obvious there is civilization there. Even the very tiny towns between the two along the border are not obvious enough to attract someone from several miles away. And once you've been stumbling through unforgiving desert for a week or more, you tend to gravitate toward the first sign of life you notice.


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To my way of thinking that's alot of people. I'm thinking between ports of entry is other than a border checkpoint. Would a wall stop it? Probably not. Would it slow it down? Probably. Do I have a problem with almost 400,000 people crossing the border illegally each year? I don't know. Tell me why I shouldn't.


Between those towns at the extreme west and the easternmost areas of Arizona, you also have preserve land. My first few weeks on the job at Yuma I had to deal with the discovery of 26 corpses in the Cabeza Prieta national wildlife refuge. They were people trying to cross unnoticed through the desert. Not many at all make it through there alive,* and those who do, as you cited, are pretty easily apprehended. This protected area and others like it in the southwest are another reason not to destroy the land with a redundant wall.

*Story tangent: We (military) have aerial training rights in the airspace above the preserve, so when news got out about the deaths, I got a call from a news producer in NY who wanted to know "what kind of military range is it? Is it a bombing range?" When I told her it was a wildlife refuge, home to dozens of endangered species of critters and plants, that we not only could not violate but were committed to protecting, she sounded almost disappointed, and said if they had any more questions, I'd get a call from the LA office. She was hoping she had the next Vieques story.:S

*second tangent: the desert is so very unforgiving that even experienced sportsmen who know the area and the land fall victim. A colleague just lost his son to the Arizona desert. Former SF, spent years camping and hiking in this area. He made one (at the time) minor mistake, and it cost him the ability to get back to his vehicle and water in time. His body was found about a quarter mile from his truck as he tried to get back.

Bottom line: it is not as easy as it might sound to get across the south Arizona desert to sneak into the U.S. We do have physical barriers in places it has been shown to help, but a wall from the Pacific Ocean to the Gulf of Mexico is wasteful, expensive, destructive and more than overkill for any it may possibly stop from coming. We spend much less on the salaries and equipment of those who apprehend anyone who does make it through.

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RonD1120

***

Quote

Benghazi 9:11-12



Like your president says: they knew what they signed up for.



They did not expect to be abandoned and sacrificed as a political cover-up.

I HATE to even acknowledge you exist, however I feel I need to point out that those people who died in Benghazi knew the risks involved. Kinda like when a soldier dies in the line of... Yeah, the difference between the two?
Pay rate/uniform.

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timski

******

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Benghazi 9:11-12



Like your president says: they knew what they signed up for.



They did not expect to be abandoned and sacrificed as a political cover-up.

I HATE to even acknowledge you exist, however I feel I need to point out that those people who died in Benghazi knew the risks involved. Kinda like when a soldier dies in the line of... Yeah, the difference between the two?
Pay rate/uniform.

When you call for help you expect help will come. They did not contract for a suicide mission.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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Then the republican leadership in place at the time should have provided funding for the proper protection. As requested by Hillary Clinton.

To your response to me, you were talking about islam in your post that I responded to, I forgot you think it's the same as radical islamists. It's not.
That would be like me equating your beliefs with radical christians that murder more Americans than their radical islamist counterparts.
Sound fair to you to do that?
I'm not much of a defender of the insanity of all the varying flavors of religion, but I do recognize the blatant differences in some at least.

I'm no religious expert by any means, but you don't show the type of christianity I was raised with.
I think you're doing it wrong. Intentionally.

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Truthfully, I don't know how to tell the difference between a peaceful Muslim and a radical Islamist. Prior to 9-11 we were all fooled.

Billvon oriented his question to me personally in my present environment. I do not live in a metropolitan area of any sort. This is not only rural America, but this is also rural mountain America.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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RonD1120

Truthfully, I don't know how to tell the difference between a peaceful Muslim and a radical Islamist.



Do you know how to tell the difference between a peaceful person and a criminal?

(Hint: the answer is no.)
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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As a Christian I desire others accept Christ. Therefore, I witness for Him and share the good news of what He has done in my life.

Radical Islamists demand that others accept Allah or die. They have a stated manifesto to take over America, see Brigitte Gabriel for more info.



In the US, over the past 15 years or so there have been 23 violent attacks by islamic extremists and 62 violent attacks by right wing extremists. In 2017, extremists killed 34 people. 20 of those people were killed by right wing extremists.

So someone like yourself is far more likely to go on a killing rampage than your heavily armed, devout Muslim neighbor, going purely by the stats.
Quote

Christ is the only true life assurance.


Then why do you work so hard to ignore his teachings?

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billvon

Quote

As a Christian I desire others accept Christ. Therefore, I witness for Him and share the good news of what He has done in my life.

Radical Islamists demand that others accept Allah or die. They have a stated manifesto to take over America, see Brigitte Gabriel for more info.



In the US, over the past 15 years or so there have been 23 violent attacks by islamic extremists and 62 violent attacks by right wing extremists. In 2017, extremists killed 34 people. 20 of those people were killed by right wing extremists.

So someone like yourself is far more likely to go on a killing rampage than your heavily armed, devout Muslim neighbor, going purely by the stats.
***Christ is the only true life assurance.


Then why do you work so hard to ignore his teachings?

Ron seems to prefer Leviticus to Matthew 5 - 7, which he ignores completely. And he gives Trump a pass for breaking most of the Commandments.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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billvon


So someone like yourself is far more likely to go on a killing rampage than your heavily armed, devout Muslim neighbor, going purely by the stats.



For that to be statistically true, there would have to be as many Muslim extremists in the US as there are right wing extremists, which I find unlikely. There are more right wing extremist killings merely because there are more of them.

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>For that to be statistically true, there would have to be as many Muslim extremists in
>the US as there are right wing extremists, which I find unlikely. There are more right wing
>extremist killings merely because there are more of them.

Fair point. More accurate to say that a person in the US is more likely to be killed by a right wing extremist than an Islamic extremist.

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(edited)
On 1/12/2019 at 12:44 PM, billvon said:

In the US, over the past 15 years or so there have been 23 violent attacks by islamic extremists and 62 violent attacks by right wing extremists. In 2017, extremists killed 34 people. 20 of those people were killed by right wing extremists.

So someone like yourself is far more likely to go on a killing rampage than your heavily armed, devout Muslim neighbor, going purely by the stats.

But given those rates, his right wing extremist neighbor is more likely to be trustworthy.  Your stats are actually supporting his logic. 

Given those rates, if there were 100+ million devout muslim neighbors in the US, this country would look and feel more like the war ridden middle east. . .maybe's there's a connection there?

Or maybe all these stats are just a bunch of meaningless bullshit?  It's a shame people exploit them just to bolster the division in this country. . .

On 1/12/2019 at 10:22 PM, billvon said:

More accurate to say that a person in the US is more likely to be killed by a right wing extremist than an Islamic extremist.

Well, it depends where you live.  This country is still extremely segregated.  If you live with a bunch of blacks you're more likely to be killed by blacks,  likewise with whites by whites, muslims by muslims, guns by guns, etc, etc. . .

But again,  given your stats, the rate of violence is much higher for muslims than right wingers.  Same for  blacks, so your logic really isn't helping your argument.

The fact is that these stats are meaningless in the way you are using them.

The variance is most likely attributed to socioeconomic issues rather than an innate propensity toward violence.

 

Edited by Coreece

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Given those rates, if there were 100+ million devout muslim neighbors in the US, this country would look and feel more like the war ridden middle east. . 

Only if you think "devout Muslim" equals "Islamic extremist". I know that people like you and ron, who are terrified of people who aren't like you, this thought process is likely true. That however doesn't make it fact.

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(edited)
12 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:
Quote

Given those rates, if there were 100+ million devout muslim neighbors in the US, this country would look and feel more like the war ridden middle east. . 

Only if you think "devout Muslim" equals "Islamic extremist". I know that people like you and ron, who are terrified of people who aren't like you, this thought process is likely true. That however doesn't make it fact. 

No, you're selectively quoting and missing the entire point.  Some things never change, I guess. . .

We are talking about the rate of extremist activity among muslims and right wingers.

You also missed the point about how these stats are meaningless in the way they are being used in this thread and only bolster the division in this country.

Edited by Coreece

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As the Trump shutdown goes on and on with no end in sight, he is significantly increasing the threats to the country from crime at the border.  Time for him to deal with his fear of "looking foolish" and end the shutdown.

================

Odds of border agents being corrupted grow as shutdown continues

BY RYAN CONSAUL, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR — 01/22/19 
The Hill

The longest government shutdown in modern U.S. history turns 1 month old on Tuesday. The financial stress faced by federal workers who have already missed their first paycheck has been well-documented. But the threat to homeland security has not.

U.S. adversaries could exploit the shutdown by trying to corrupt border agents and airport screeners who are doing their jobs but not getting paid. Transnational criminal organizations and drug cartels have tried to bribe officers before.

The Project on Government Oversight reported last April that at least 13 employees have been arrested on corruption-related charges since January 2017. In November 2017, a border patrol agent was arrested for bribery and drug related charges.

 . . .

Unlike airport screeners, who are more likely to live near metropolitan areas and possibly have more employment opportunities, border agents stationed in remote areas along the nation’s southwest border may have few alternatives to offset the financial burden caused by the government shutdown. 

 . . .

Additionally, those responsible for safeguarding against corruption, including the DHS Office of Inspector General, are operating with significantly reduced staffs. The majority of employees at the inspector general’s office are under furlough.

Without these watchdogs ferreting out fraud, waste and abuse, the department is ever more exposed to potential malfeasance. . .

Former DHS Inspector General John Roth said earlier this month that “it’s ironic that you’re increasing the risk of corruption at the same time as you’re attempting to fortify the border.” 

====================

 

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18 minutes ago, Coreece said:

No, you're selectively quoting and missing the entire point.  Some things never change, I guess. . .

We are talking about the rate of extremist activity among muslims and right wingers.

You also missed the point about how these stats are meaningless in the way they are being used in this thread and only bolster the division in this country.

I agree the stats are meaningless. But the fear of Muslims isn't meaningless. The fear of brown people isn't meaningless. The fear of black people isn't meaningless. Those fears drive incredible wedges in cultures.

It's love thy neighbour. Not, love thy neighour only if he is the same as you.

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1 hour ago, Coreece said:

No, you're selectively quoting and missing the entire point.  Some things never change, I guess. . .

We are talking about the rate of extremist activity among muslims and right wingers.

You also missed the point about how these stats are meaningless in the way they are being used in this thread and only bolster the division in this country.

You have posted again and again in this thread and others, that the statistics quoted are "meaningless". Presumably most of the people reading these forums are smart enough to ascertain fact v spin.With some noted exceptions. Why don't you make an effort to support a specific opinion? A position in the debate which you refuse to define. Support for your position defined by using outside credible sources. Sources which you specifically quote.

To make statements otherwise is nothing less than moot. To stir the direction of debate in obtuse directions.

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2 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

You have posted again and again in this thread and others, that the statistics quoted are "meaningless". . . Why don't you make an effort to support a specific opinion? A position in the debate which you refuse to define. Support for your position defined by using outside credible sources. Sources which you specifically quote.

 Billvon is the one that posted the stats on extremism that we are talking about, but I don't hear you demanding that he back up his claims with credible outside sources.

In response to Ron's comments about Muslims, Billvon posted that "over the past 15 years or so there have been 23 violent attacks by islamic extremists and 62 violent attacks by right wing extremists," and therefore implied that he should be more fearful of people like himself rather than his heavily armed devout Muslim neighbor.

And that's fine, but if you want to play that game, those stats also show that the rate of Islamic extremism among Muslims is significantly higher than the rate of extremism among right wingers given that Muslims only represent 1% of the population.   So while it's true that it's more likely that a right winger will be the next to go on a shooting rampage, it's also true that Ron's heavily armed devout Muslim neighbor is more likely an extremist than his heavily armed conservative right wing neighbor, statistically speaking of course.

This is all meaningless because the fact is that both are more likely to just be great neighbors than extremists.  It's a meaningless misuse of these stats to suggest that a particular group of people are inherently more prone to violence than another group.

The proper use of these stats would be to determine why the numbers are disproportionate, and studies suggest that it's because of a variety of socioeconomic issues, not just implicit bias, xenophobia or outright racism.

There's a lot more that can be said about all this, but I feel we're getting a bit off topic and I noticed Bilvon's attempt to get this thread back on track, so maybe this discussion would be more fitting in another thread for another time?

 

                      

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30 minutes ago, Coreece said:

 This is all meaningless because the fact is that both are more likely to just be great neighbors than extremists.  It's a meaningless misuse of these stats to suggest that a particular group of people are inherently more prone to violence than another group.

The proper use of these stats would be to determine why the numbers are disproportionate, and studies suggest that it's because of a variety of socioeconomic issues, not just implicit bias, xenophobia or outright racism.

                      

And THAT should be the takeaway.  Ron's insistence that his devout Christian neighbors with arsenals are righteous forces for good, and that devout Muslim neigbhors with arsenals should be immediately reported to the police, is an example of the sort of racism, bias and xenophobia you mention above.

If you are victim of extremist violence today, it will be more likely that the perpetrator is a right wing type than a Muslim.  That doesn't mean that either Christian or Muslim neighbors should be looked at with suspicion - it merely contradicts the common bias that Muslims are what everyone should be afraid of (and should be reported to the police immediately.)  Indeed, the numbers are so small that both are almost in the noise.

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I wouldn’t be surprised to find that the format change has turned him off, particularly if he logged in right at the beginning before they started to work the bugs out. 

Some folks get to a point where the next change just isn’t worth it. 

Wendy P. 

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1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

I wouldn’t be surprised to find that the format change has turned him off, particularly if he logged in right at the beginning before they started to work the bugs out. 

Some folks get to a point where the next change just isn’t worth it. 

Wendy P. 

He stated about a week ago that he would be away for a while because ‘his clan was having a big meeting to discuss how to respond to the current crisis’, or some other such scariness.

 

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14 minutes ago, yoink said:

He stated about a week ago that he would be away for a while because ‘his clan was having a big meeting to discuss how to respond to the current crisis’, or some other such scariness.

 

Yikes.  Let's hope we see him back here and not in the papers.

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