Gang Recruitment

[Hooknswoop 19]

Answer mine (questions from my previous post) and I’ll answer yours.

Bonus bonus round: Is Mexico going to pay the 5.7 billion?

Derek V

[SkyDekker 1,121]

BIGUN

What I want to know is; "Why was it right when the Democrats were calling for more restrictions on illegal aliens (including physical barriers), but now that the right is emulating the same discussion, but with more action than words - It's evil?"

Schumer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdAyn89hFIo

Schumer, Feinstein & Obama - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijLJSTGA3hs

HRC - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S1uc47j1Q4

Thanks for proving that Democrats are not calling for open borders and are serious about curbing illegal immigration. Probably why illegal immigration across your southern border has gone down so much.

There already is quite a bit of fencing across that southern border. What is the plan for this wall? Where and how is going to get built. How is it going to help more than the natural barriers already in place at many miles of the border?

There is absolutely no plan and no details other than: I want money for a wall.

It is shocking to me that conservatives are ready to support billions of dollars of expenditures without absolutely no plan, no goals, nothing.

If you are willing to just give billions away, maybe just give it back to your own society, it will do much more good.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

BIGUN

What I want to know is; "Why was it right when the Democrats were calling for more restrictions on illegal aliens (including physical barriers), but now that the right is emulating the same discussion, but with more action than words - It's evil?"

Schumer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdAyn89hFIo

Schumer, Feinstein & Obama - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijLJSTGA3hs

HRC - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S1uc47j1Q4

False equivalence.

Nobody is calling for 'open immigration'.

Many are calling for more avenues for legal immigration.

That doesn't negate previous calls for 'clamping down' on illegal immigration or going after those who exploit them. Funny how the right seems to not want to prosecute companies (run by rich white men who contribute to their campaigns - go figure) who employ illegals.

And the idea of a physical barrier isn't new. Or necessarily 'bad'.

As I've noted more than once, there are certain places where a wall or fence is a good idea and will work well to prevent a certain amount of illegal crossing. Tijuana/San Diego is a good example of this.

However, the wall proposed by Trump is far beyond that. He wants a 'wall' or 'fence' or whatever he's calling it today to run the entire length of the land border. Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific.

Not only is it insanely expensive, it would be an environmental disaster. And it wouldn't work.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 2,396]

>What is the competing plan?

Simple. Pass the budget to reopen the government. The increased money for border security makes you feel safer. Trump goes to Mexico, gets the check for $5 billion, comes back and builds the wall. Everyone is happy.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

billvon

>What is the competing plan?

Simple. Pass the budget to reopen the government. The increased money for border security makes you feel safer. Trump goes to Mexico, gets the check for $5 $25+ billion, comes back and builds the wall. Everyone is happy.

FIFY
The $5B Trump wants is just the beginning.

Actual construction of the wall he has proposed is a lot more.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[DJL 232]

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Status quo is not working.

What is the competing plan?

We went from almost 2 million border crossing apprehensions per year in 2000 to 200,000 in 2017. I'd say that something is working very well. In the meantime funding for border security has gone up and up. Never have they had so much money to do so little with.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,396]

>The $5B Trump wants is just the beginning.
>Actual construction of the wall he has proposed is a lot more.

That's fine. He can go back and get the balance later. Besides, it's almost done.

"I would build a great wall, and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me, and I’ll build them very inexpensively. I will build a great great wall on our southern border and I’ll have Mexico pay for that wall."

"Mexico will pay for the wall! 100 percent.”

"People do not yet realize how much of the Wall, including really effective renovation, has already been built."

"Despite the large Caravans that WERE forming and heading to our Country, people have not been able to get through our newly built Walls."

[DJL 232]

BIGUN

What I want to know is; "Why was it right when the Democrats were calling for more restrictions on illegal aliens (including physical barriers), but now that the right is emulating the same discussion, but with more action than words - It's evil?"

Schumer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdAyn89hFIo

Schumer, Feinstein & Obama - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijLJSTGA3hs

HRC - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S1uc47j1Q4

Thank you, hopefully now you understand that Democrats want better border security and a comprehensive program against illegal immigration. As Obama put it in the video you posted, "If we think putting up a few more miles of fence is by any means the whole answer to our immigration issues then I think we're kidding ourselves." As in there are twice as many (400k) visas who successfully enter the US just in overstayed/abandoned visas.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[BIGUN 1,053]

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"If we think putting up a few more miles of fence is by any means the whole answer to our immigration issues then I think we're kidding ourselves."

I took that as not only a fence,but a systemic approach to the whole problem. Which is what I've said in the past. Border Wall, DACA, a good asylum process (Vetting. etc.) other than showing up at the border entry points with your kids and acting astounded that there's a 6 month bottleneck.

Why not another "Ellis Island" type solution like our grandfathers had to go through.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[billvon 2,396]

>Why not another "Ellis Island" type solution like our grandfathers had to go through.

That would be great.

My grandparents showed up there with almost no money and no documentation. It took them about six hours to get through the testing and physical. Then they were admitted.

Today we'd have to do a lot more work, of course. A biometric scan for everyone to 1) get their ID on file and 2) check for criminals. And the physical would probably be more extensive, but would likely be faster than it was back then. But we could probably process them just as fast as we could in 1920.

Unfortunately I think you'd get a lot of resistance from the people who fear "losing our culture to foreigners" or something if anyone proposed this.

[TriGirl 268]

ibx

There is a concept in Germany called "Multi-Kulti" which means, that different cultures should live side by side without too much adaption, this was tried in Germany for about 30-40 years starting with the Turkish guest workers in the 60-70s. This was declared an abject failure by Angela Merkel in 2010 and leads to people here that learn German in Primary school after their families have been here for 2 generations.

I haven't lived in Germany, but I have lived in Turkey. As I understand it (and please, do correct me if I'm wrong), Turks in Germany were not allowed full German citizenship, even if they were born there. Again, as I understand the evolution of the situation, this lead to the perpetuation of the Turkish identities and remaining ties back to Turkey. I do know many German Turks go back to Turkey to find Turks for their kids to marry as well as the arranged marriage you described of your classmate.

At this point, yeah, it becomes almost futile to try to convince both ethnic Germans and ethnic Turks in Germany that those born in Germany, especially after several generations of a family have lived there, are entitled to German citizenship. At this point, the situation has gone on for so long that perspectives could not be changed until several more generations experienced a strong effort by the German government and populace.

If you never have the opportunity to be considered one of the citizens of the nation, why would you bother trying?

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Culturally both whites and blacks are Americans. So hardly any cultural exchange was made.

This is a very ignorant statement -- as my comment above is also ignorant, though I admit my limited exposure to the situation and ask to be corrected. Slavery in the U.S. has only been rendered illegal for about 160 years, and interracial marriage has only been legal within my lifetime. Prejudices have been perpetuated to the point like the situation described above: it's easier to stay within a societal group that accepts you. Without the mingling, isolated cultures evolve in different directions. The case of black vs white in the U.S. is remarkably on par with the case of Turk vs German, IMHO.
**of course, I also do realize that I'm speaking in generalities -- YMMV**

And bringing this thread back to its title, it is these situations that lead (sometimes) to gang recruitment. When young people feel marginalized, they are susceptible to the smooth talking gang "recruiter" who offers them a sense of belonging.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

TriGirl

And bringing this thread back to its title, it is these situations that lead (sometimes) to gang recruitment. When young people feel marginalized, they are susceptible to the smooth talking gang "recruiter" who offers them a sense of belonging.

You mean like when someone running for high office claims they are all rapists?
Or claims that everyone coming in the 'caravan' are violent thugs being paid by 'liberals'?

Marginalizing them with statements like that?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[ibx 2]

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I haven't lived in Germany, but I have lived in Turkey. As I understand it (and please, do correct me if I'm wrong), Turks in Germany were not allowed full German citizenship, even if they were born there. Again, as I understand the evolution of the situation, this lead to the perpetuation of the Turkish identities and remaining ties back to Turkey. I do know many German Turks go back to Turkey to find Turks for their kids to marry as well as the arranged marriage you described of your classmate.

This is true for the first generation of guest workers. They where always seen as guests and not really expected to become Germans. One big reason for this, is that nobody wanted to define what it means to be German due to NS ballast. A discussion that is currently underway as well due to the influx of migrants.

The second and third generations however grew up in the German school system and if you where born in Germany it's simple to get the German or even dual citizenship. Most second and third generation turks to not want to leave Germany so integration should be a self interest but now they've been living in subculture their whole lives, add to that an undefined identity(are they turks or Germans?) and it gets complicated quickly.

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If you never have the opportunity to be considered one of the citizens of the nation, why would you bother trying?

Turks that wanted to integrate, learn the language and so on had no trouble integrating and becoming "Germans", it was not for lack of opportunity.
It was more of an expectation thing, the turks just wanted to work here and retire back in turkey. For most it was only temporary. In realtiy for most it was 40-50 years with many retiring here. Germans didn't require anybody to integrate because that would be nationalistic...

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his is a very ignorant statement -- as my comment above is also ignorant, though I admit my limited exposure to the situation and ask to be corrected. Slavery in the U.S. has only been rendered illegal for about 160 years, and interracial marriage has only been legal within my lifetime. Prejudices have been perpetuated to the point like the situation described above: it's easier to stay within a societal group that accepts you. Without the mingling, isolated cultures evolve in different directions.

I was talking about cultural exchange - not different societal groups. These things do not mean the same thing. The Africans that where forcefully brought to US as slaves had their culture violently stripped away and their identity erased. After being here for a hundred years there was not much left of African culture. It's why they invented a pseudo African identity last century. Kwanza anyone?

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The case of black vs white in the U.S. is remarkably on par with the case of Turk vs German, IMHO.
**of course, I also do realize that I'm speaking in generalities -- YMMV**

Also you really can't compare the african american situation in the US to the turkish one in Germany. See above for one reason. The situation only seems similar very superficially. It is fact so different that lessons learned in the US can be hardly applied to Germany and visa versa. The whole resentment thing due to the slavery is absent. The simple fact that the turks have a different nationality and a country with a long culture they can return to, makes both situations very different, don't you think?

We can only always speak in generalities about these things.

Thanks for engaging :-)

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Just to make it even clearer what incredible bullshit this whole thing is:

Quote

If the entire United States in 2017 had crime rates identical to those in counties along the U.S.-Mexico border, there would have been 5,720 fewer homicides, 159,036 fewer property crimes, and 99,205 fewer violent crimes across the entire country. If the entire United States had crime rates as low as those along the border in 2017, then the number of homicides would have been 33.8 percent lower, property crimes would have been 2.1 percent lower, and violent crimes would have dropped 8 percent.

https://www.cato.org/blog/crime-along-mexican-border-lower-rest-country

[ryoder 1,382]

SkyDekker

Just to make it even clearer what incredible bullshit this whole thing is:

Quote

If the entire United States in 2017 had crime rates identical to those in counties along the U.S.-Mexico border, there would have been 5,720 fewer homicides, 159,036 fewer property crimes, and 99,205 fewer violent crimes across the entire country. If the entire United States had crime rates as low as those along the border in 2017, then the number of homicides would have been 33.8 percent lower, property crimes would have been 2.1 percent lower, and violent crimes would have dropped 8 percent.

https://www.cato.org/blog/crime-along-mexican-border-lower-rest-country

Meh, typical libural bullshit;
Oh wait, Cato Institute was founded by Charles Koch?
Never mind.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[TriGirl 268]

Thanks for the lesson on the Turks in Germany. It was along the lines I thought, except for the opportunity for the natural-born to be German citizens. Appreciate the enlightenment!

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The Africans that where forcefully brought to US as slaves had their culture violently stripped away and their identity erased. After being here for a hundred years there was not much left of African culture. It's why they invented a pseudo African identity last century.

True, except for recent immigrants, the black identity in the U.S. is not an African identity. But a separate Black Culture that has evolved here. It does not apply to everyone of African heritage (again, huge generalization), but its development and continued existence has been used to help perpetuate the "us versus them" mentality that a lot of ignorant groups love to use -- and therefore has contributed to the perpetuation of separate cultures/identities in this country.

Good talk!

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[ibx 2]

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True, except for recent immigrants, the black identity in the U.S. is not an African identity. But a separate Black Culture that has evolved here. It does not apply to everyone of African heritage (again, huge generalization), but its development and continued existence has been used to help perpetuate the "us versus them" mentality that a lot of ignorant groups love to use -- and therefore has contributed to the perpetuation of separate cultures/identities in this country.

I totally agree. How boring on the internet... What are we going fight about?

Thanks!