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airdvr

Afghanistan and Syria exits

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jakee

***We've spent 18 years in Afghanistan. If we haven't accomplished our goal we never will. How long should we spend in Syria before we realize the same thing?



We were never closer to achieving a positive outcome in Afghanistan than we were before we got bored and invaded Iraq instead. What else did we get from Iraq? ISIS. Why are we in Syria at all? Oh yeah, ISIS again.

How long is it going to be until you realise the folly of the foreign policy objectives you still support?

What policy objectives are you talking about?
Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

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airdvr

*********>We've essentially left our best ally against ISIS unprotected on the battlefield.

"Make America Great Again." Nothing in there about our allies!



You and the usual cast of characters were totally against being there. Now all of a sudden you have a problem with leaving.

It’s called accepting responsibility for our actions. Maybe your guys should try it.

We shouldn’t have gone in the first place, but now that we did the responsible thing is to see it through to a successful end, not just run away like a coward and claim victory while hiding behind the bed.

We've spent 18 years in Afghanistan. If we haven't accomplished our goal we never will. How long should we spend in Syria before we realize the same thing?

I agree. Which is why I was against going in the first place - there was never any victory to be had.

If we're leaving because we can't achieve our goals then we should pull out, but in a measured way that doesn't make the situation as bad as it can possibly be for everyone else.
But I've not seen that 'We can't do any better' message from the government - have you?

If they said that and then presented a measured withdrawal plan I would have a much different response, but right now the US looks like the school bully who just got punched in the nose.

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airdvr

******We've spent 18 years in Afghanistan. If we haven't accomplished our goal we never will. How long should we spend in Syria before we realize the same thing?



We were never closer to achieving a positive outcome in Afghanistan than we were before we got bored and invaded Iraq instead. What else did we get from Iraq? ISIS. Why are we in Syria at all? Oh yeah, ISIS again.

How long is it going to be until you realise the folly of the foreign policy objectives you still support?

What policy objectives are you talking about?

Invading any country you think could maybe pose a threat to yours without any long term strategy for dealing with the aftermath.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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ryoder


He makes the odd good point. Kicking Turkey out of NATO for one. America needs to develop a foreign policy whereby it sees dramatically less "important interests". Israel and the Kurds are the two only friends in that region. Ceding the battlefield to IS, Iran and Russia. Ain't one.

Odd that nobody on FOX. None of the usual trump apologists in SC. Nor trump. Has suggested a US withdrawal from the war in Yemen. A war that kills 2500 children per month.

Oh silly me! MBS is a patron of trump and a friend of Jared Kushner. Carry on killing children. That would be 700 more by the new year.

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Oh silly me! MBS is a patron of trump and a friend of Jared Kushner. Carry on killing children. That would be 700 more by the new year.




Steven Miller and company do not care about dead children in shithole countries. No US personnel are being killed in Yemen. Why should anyone in 'murica care?
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Top US envoy in the coalition quits.

Link is BBC, but every major outlet has it.

Quote

In early December he told reporters: "We want to stay on the ground and make sure that stability can be maintained in these areas."

He went on to say: "It would be reckless if we were just to say, well, the physical caliphate is defeated, so we can just leave now. I think anyone who's looked at a conflict like this would agree with that."...

In his resignation letter, seen by AP news agency, Mr McGurk said that IS militants in Syria were on the run but not yet defeated. He said that withdrawing US forces from Syria would create the conditions that gave rise to IS.

In an email to staff quoted by the New York Times, he said Mr Trump's decision to pull out troops "came as a shock and was a complete reversal of policy". It "left our coalition partners confused and our fighting partners bewildered", he said.

"I ultimately concluded I could not carry out these new instructions and maintain my integrity," he went on to say.



So Trump is creating conditions that could create the same conditions that Daesh rose from

Is he so stupid that he doesn't realize this?

Or is he just following orders from the Kremlin, who can take advantage of the chaos?
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Or is he just following orders from the Kremlin, who can take advantage of the chaos?



Probably not. This is likely just the latest manifestation of the isolationist viewpoint of your inward looking President. It is completely in character for him. It is capricious and foolhardy but emotionally satisfying for him. In other words, just what you would expect from a dotard with power.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk

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Or is he just following orders from the Kremlin, who can take advantage of the chaos?



Probably not. This is likely just the latest manifestation of the isolationist viewpoint of your inward looking President. It is completely in character for him. It is capricious and foolhardy but emotionally satisfying for him. In other words, just what you would expect from a dotard with power.



Very true.

The problem is that it's a very beneficial action for Putin.

So the question remains:

Is it stupidity or following orders?

It could easily be either one.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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normiss

We’re literally watching our country be destroyed right before our eyes and it seems as though we’re supposed to just sit quietly and passively observe.



The midterm election shows white women are finally starting to abandon Trump
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/11/7/18064260/midterm-elections-turnout-women-trump-exit-polls

The GOP Is Dying Off. Literally.
" By combining presidential election exit polls with mortality rates per age group from the U.S. Census Bureau, I calculated that, of the 61 million who voted for Mitt Romney in 2012, about 2.75 million will be dead by the 2016 election. President Barack Obama’s voters, of course, will have died too—about 2.3 million of the 66 million who voted for the president won’t make it to 2016 either. That leaves a big gap in between, a difference of roughly 453,000 in favor of the Democrats.

Here is the methodology, using one age group as an example: According to exit polls, 5,488,091 voters aged 60 to 64 years old supported Romney in 2012. The mortality rate for that age group is 1,047.3 deaths per 100,000, which means that 57,475 of those voters died by the end of 2013. Multiply that number by four, and you get 229,900 Romney voters aged 60-to-64 who will be deceased by Election Day 2016. Doing the same calculation across the range of demographic slices pulled from exit polls and census numbers allows one to calculate the total voter deaths.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/05/the-gop-is-dying-off-literally-118035

New Survey Shows Young People Are Staying Liberal and Conservatives Are Dying Off
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/03/new-survey-young-staying-liberal-conservatives-dying-off.html

Its all good. All the old white uneducated republicans are dying because of trump policies i.e. poor-no health care. Plus the undeniable demographics of republicans. In fact the day may soon be here when the last old, white, republican will be laid to rest. With his old AR-15 and its Vietnam era 20 round magazine.

No offense Ron and Marc.

Merry-Christmas.

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kallend


Unfortunately the USA has, in just two years, achieved a reputation as an unreliable ally, a fair-weather friend.



Wow...you think that rep comes in just 2 years. Unfortunately we've been working on that one since Vietnam.
Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

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airdvr

***
Unfortunately the USA has, in just two years, achieved a reputation as an unreliable ally, a fair-weather friend.



Wow...you think that rep comes in just 2 years. Unfortunately we've been working on that one since Vietnam.

You've got to do some pretty serious mental gymnastics to convince yourself things have always been this way.

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You've got to do some pretty serious mental gymnastics to convince yourself things have always been this way.




Ummm... not really. You just have to read some history. America has almost always had an isolationist streak and could not be counted on. And there is nothing wrong with that. However, only with the Trumpists in charge has America began spitting on it's friends for spite.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk

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You've got to do some pretty serious mental gymnastics to convince yourself things have always been this way.




Ummm... not really. You just have to read some history. America has almost always had an isolationist streak and could not be counted on. And there is nothing wrong with that. However, only with the Trumpists in charge has America began spitting on it's friends for spite.



Welllll thats not really fair. The isolationist periods of US history are no different than any other country. Every country has periods of "engagement" and then subsequent periods when withdrawal to isolationism prevails. The Swiss the likely sole exemption.

The US however has an expanded view whereby the "military-industrial" complex. Combined with unmatched military capabilities. Act hand in glove with policies that place "important national interests" almost everywhere.

The US was reluctant participants in the military actions to ouster Muammar Al Gathafi in Libya. They only acted when France and the EU had put together a partnership and plan of action. Which the US then enjoined.

US actions in the Balkans was along a similar plan. Trouble arises when the quick actions of political expediency. Intersect with the political realities of patient enemies and their ideologies.Enemies like the NVA that know they can just wait it out.

The difference that trump brings to equation is to alienate friends and foes. Befriend.enemies with no logic. Russia and NK, as examples. With no coherent ideology, policy and plan of action.

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airdvr


We've spent 18 years in Afghanistan. If we haven't accomplished our goal we never will. How long should we spend in Syria before we realize the same thing?


Apples and oranges.

In Syria, we're supporting/training the Kurds to do the fighting themselves. When we tried to train them elsewhere and send them back in, they were slaughtered on their own without support. We have a couple thousand people there in support, not (generally) fighting on the "front lines."

Turkey considers Kurds all to be after only one thing: taking over Turkey. All Kurds. They seriously do not think Kurds in neighboring countries of having any interest in the governments there -- they treat all Kurdish enclaves as staging areas for Kurds to regroup and launch attacks back into Turkey. U.S. forces being in Kurdish areas of Syria just means Turkish forces can't attack the Syrian Kurds there without possibly hitting Americans. As soon as our folks are gone, Turkey will take advantage of the weak Syrian government and decimate the Syrian Kurds. They'll accuse them of supporting PKK (militant/terrorist Turkish Kurds), and wipe them out.

They'd love to do the same thing in Iraq.
See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

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TriGirl

***
We've spent 18 years in Afghanistan. If we haven't accomplished our goal we never will. How long should we spend in Syria before we realize the same thing?


Apples and oranges.

In Syria, we're supporting/training the Kurds to do the fighting themselves. When we tried to train them elsewhere and send them back in, they were slaughtered on their own without support. We have a couple thousand people there in support, not (generally) fighting on the "front lines."

Turkey considers Kurds all to be after only one thing: taking over Turkey. All Kurds. They seriously do not think Kurds in neighboring countries of having any interest in the governments there -- they treat all Kurdish enclaves as staging areas for Kurds to regroup and launch attacks back into Turkey. U.S. forces being in Kurdish areas of Syria just means Turkish forces can't attack the Syrian Kurds there without possibly hitting Americans. As soon as our folks are gone, Turkey will take advantage of the weak Syrian government and decimate the Syrian Kurds. They'll accuse them of supporting PKK (militant/terrorist Turkish Kurds), and wipe them out.

They'd love to do the same thing in Iraq.


Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

Saudi Arabia has now agreed to spend the necessary money needed to help rebuild Syria, instead of the United States. See? Isn’t it nice when immensely wealthy countries help rebuild their neighbors rather than a Great Country, the U.S., that is 5000 miles away. Thanks to Saudi A!
144K
11:23 AM - Dec 24, 2018

A few weeks back there were numerous reports about the Saudi's attempting to buy Turkey off for the murder of Khashoggi.

In October they gave the US $100 million to rebuild Syria. The funds to be administered by the US.

What Turkey hopes to gain from Khashoggi’s murder
https://www.politico.eu/article/jamal-khashoggi-murder-saudi-arabia-journalist-istanbul-what-turkey-hopes-to-gain/

In one stroke trump sold out Israel and the Kurds. So Turkey could have their way with the Kurds, outside Turkey. If not wipe them out. Iran will now have a free reign in Syria. It largely controls Iraq through its militias, Muqtada al-Sadr and other Shia religious leaders.

In Syrian withdrawal, Trump abandons Israel and the Kurds
https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-syrian-withdrawal-trump-abandons-israel-and-the-kurds/

Yet Netanyahu has largely remained quiet about this sudden reversal of course.
Netanyahu: Israel Able To Contain Iran In Syria After U.S. Pullout
https://www.rferl.org/a/israel-netanyahu-syria-iran-us-pullout-trump/29673028.html

Analysis Trump’s Syria Withdrawal and Mattis’ Resignation Startle Israel – and Undercut Netanyahu
https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-trump-s-syria-withdrawal-and-mattis-resignation-startle-israel-undercut-netanyahu-1.6766824

Yet in the face of a upcoming election Netanyahu has remained quiet about trump's sellout of Israeli interests.The numerous statements and media coverage of the US betrayal of Israel in Syria.

The other half of this equation as to the winners besides Turkey, Russia and Iran. Is MBS, Jared Kushner's business partner in Saudi Arabia.

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billvon

>We've essentially left our best ally against ISIS unprotected on the battlefield.

"Make America Great Again." Nothing in there about our allies!



It'll be a very very very long time before anyone allies with us again after we've left so many allies in a power vacuum in which their old enemies and new ones swoop in to fill the void.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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airdvr

I say great move. We've been dicking around in Afghanistan for 18 years. Syria is just a dark abyss waiting for us to fall in.



Let's see, Bush Sr. advises against regime change because there's no exit strategy. Bush Jr. ignores advice and changes regime. Bush Jr. agrees to pull-out and Obama follows through. Isis arrives. Obama holds off sending troops back in. Isis takes over and we have to go back in and retake places like Raqqa where the US lost service members. Now Trump agrees to pull-out.

What do you all think is going to happen next? Maybe we should remember what we knew all along, that there's no exit strategy and stability in that region means a long term dedication once you've set it on fire. We supposedly have agreements from both Turkey and the Saudis that they'll take over the fight but now we have two countries with their own agendas and huge disregard for human rights when it comes to Kurds. The next flashpoint is that this brings them into another front in their proxy war with Iran on Iraq soil and you can guarantee that it'll soon blow out into the waters of the Gulf over shipping.

So, my question is: Should we go ahead and cue up the Lee Greenwood music now or just leave it on repeat?
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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ryoder

After Trump's visit, Iraqi lawmakers demand U.S. withdrawal
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/after-trump-visit-iraqi-lawmakers-demand-u-s-withdrawal/

It would appear he made quite an impression.



Donald J trump and America. Making new enemies on every continent every day.

I'm sure that Marc, Ron and FOX news will spin it as a win. So the US can leave the entire region with Saudi Arabia the sole exception. MBS loves trump and Jared.

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How to create world peace: parachute Trump into every war torn country and within hours the warring sides will unite to demand that he get the fuck out.

-- Andy Borowitz (on Facebook)
:D
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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