Spiraling In The Holding Area

[KBUDA 18]

I'm going to bring this up not strictly to discourage anyone, but just to point it out for newer jumpers who might not understand what they're doing to other people.

This summer alone I had maybe 6 incidents (out of 100 ish jumps) where I was getting ready or had already turned onto my downwind leg, only to have someone finishing an aggressive 360 degree or larger turn uncomfortably close to where I planned on being. This usually meant that the other jumper was coming out of a very steep dive at around 1,000ft. A second point to this is that most of those people were very new jumpers. Again, I'm not going to be the crotchety old bastard and say that aggressive turns are bad, but just in case there are some new jumpers out there who aren't aware: just because you aren't in danger of colliding with someone doesn't mean that you aren't flying like a jerk and making people wonder if it's safe to continue flying their normal pattern.

In addition to that, if you are a low-time jumper, you are probably lightly loading your canopy. This means that if you spiral very aggressively during your flight, depending on where we both started, I might have to pass you twice on my flight. Worse yet, if you end up spiraling down in front of me, and beat me into the landing pattern, I will likely have to fly my whole pattern in brakes to avoid interfering with you. I recognize that this is my problem.

I'm sure some people will give me grief about this, but I wanted to bring this up because I get it. Flying parachutes is dope, and it's easy to get excited about it. However, the time to go hard is on high pulls or hop and pops, and not when there are 15 or 22 other jumpers in the air all trying to get back to the ground safely (unless you have your own lane and the experience to make good decisions). It just doesn't make any sense to have a person with 60 skydives toggle whip their way into the middle of a landing pattern, and people with many more jumps than that seem to know better.

This isn't 100% relevant, but that guy seriously comes out of nowhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vwW2MBocok

Edit: I am a fool who cannot hyperlink things.

[Crispy. 0]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vwW2MBocok

[sedsquare 14]

Below decision altitude, I wish fewer people flew their canopies like drunk people drive their cars.

[Blis 1]

Should you be flying your parachute like a jerk at my DZ there is good chance you will either get a good talking or grounding... There is no excuse to not fly nicely below 1500 feet...

[AtrusBatleth 0]

As a low number jumper myself, I agree completely. I love the 360 (or 3600! ) turns, but on high pulls. From a safety perspective, besides the obvious concern over canopy traffic, it is possible to turn so aggressively that your AAD will fire. That's why even on high pulls or hop n pops I don't get crazy below 2000 or so.

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

[SethInMI 156]

AtrusBatleth

it is possible to turn so aggressively that your AAD will fire.

Unless you are jumping a student AAD, this is not a concern.

The people who will be able to fire an expert/"normal" AAD under canopy are competition level canopy pilots under highly loaded wings doing large turns and they are well aware of the issue.

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

[DJL 232]

Nobody should spiral anywhere near or in the holding area or landing pattern. PERIOD. If you see it, say something about it preferably to the person but to the S&TA if you don't want to go to the person yourself.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[raftman 12]

Came out of nowhere? Bullshit!
If he had been looking around under canopy, in stead of tunnel vision at the LZ he would have seen him!!
Look around and live people!

[KBUDA 18]

I think that most people who do it haven't really pushed themselves to the limit, and so don't realize how close to it they are. Aggressive and unbalanced toggle maneuvers can land you in line twists quicker than most people realize.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQE9IBS5zeg

[billvon 2,684]

>If he had been looking around under canopy, in stead of tunnel vision at the LZ he
>would have seen him!!

True. However, he had already started his turn to land (i.e. his high performance landing) and when that happens:

1) you pretty much have to be looking where you are going. Being off on your recovery by half a second because you looked around could mean the difference between a normal landing and a broken back.

2) when you are turning at that rate, it's not as easy to see other people near you.

Both of which are good arguments for not doing HP landings in a shared landing area.

[LeeroyJenkins 2]

That was results of a partial stall. Check your trim people.

[Maddingo 21]

I suppose I got to a point in skydiving where spiraling over 360 makes me only dizzy and gives 0 thrill :D Use it only for separation now, everything else is riser fun.

[AtrusBatleth 0]

SethInMI

*** it is possible to turn so aggressively that your AAD will fire.

Unless you are jumping a student AAD, this is not a concern.

The people who will be able to fire an expert/"normal" AAD under canopy are competition level canopy pilots under highly loaded wings doing large turns and they are well aware of the issue.

Now that you mention it, I still had that caution stuck in my head from my student days. I looked up my highest recorded canopy speed at 38mph, well under the 78mph AAD activation speed even with uncertainties. I guess I've been thinking conservatively these last couple years (rather that than the other way around).

The caution could still be relevant to many low jump number jumpers who are jumping rental rigs typically equipped with student AADs.

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

[billvon 2,684]

Quote

The caution could still be relevant to many low jump number jumpers who are jumping rental rigs typically equipped with student AADs.

In my experience it is EXTREMELY rare for anything other than a student rig to be equipped with a student AAD, and it is difficult to get a rented student rig to exceed descent rate limits on student cypreses. (Indeed, even most student rigs in my experience use expert AAD's.) That being said, it never hurts to ask to make sure.

[AtrusBatleth 0]

Before I got my own rig, my experience was that the only rigs to rent were student rigs equipped with a student AAD or sometimes a multi-mode AAD. I.e. there were no separate "fun jumper" rental rigs. Smaller DZs I guess. And based on my lightly loaded canopy speeds of 38mph with a student activation speed of ~30mph, it should be pretty easy to fire a student rig. Obviously I have no desire to test this. And canopy traffic alone is still sufficient reason for me to avoid aggressive turning under 2000, as well as risking line twists or line breaks with not much altitude left for correction.

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

[faulknerwn 38]

We had a guy with 30 jumps or so spiral and set off our student Mars on a Solo 210. I don't remember what airspeed he achieved though I remember looking it up at the time.

Also had another guy who had a changeable Vigil and accidently had it in student mode and fired it on a Storm 150 I believe...

[Westerly 61]

faulknerwn

We had a guy with 30 jumps or so spiral and set off our student Mars on a Solo 210. I don't remember what airspeed he achieved though I remember looking it up at the time.

Also had another guy who had a changeable Vigil and accidently had it in student mode and fired it on a Storm 150 I believe...

Student mode on the Mars is insanely low. It's something like 29 MPH. Standard student mode on most devices is 45 MPH. Setting the Mars to intermediate mode is probably safer (45 MPH).

[ghost47 18]

Quote

Student mode on the Mars is insanely low. It's something like 29 MPH. Standard student mode on most devices is 45 MPH.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, student mode on a Cypres (which, to my knowledge, is the most common AAD out there, at least in the U.S.) is 29 MPH. So I'm not sure where you're getting your information on what the "standard student mode" speed is.

https://www.cypres.aero/product/student-cypres-2/

[ChrisD2.0 2]

There is another concern about spiraling in the pattern, even when your alone.

You are more susceptible to wind shear and those other unseen turbulence hazards.

Not only does turbulence exist downstream from ground objects and buildings, it also exists above these same structures. And of course thermals as well. While most reasonable DZ's BAN Hooking in, many of these types like to do a flash hook at a slightly highr than landing altitude, more than a few have paid the price for a flashy hook at or about 100 to 300 feet. As their canopy comes out of the hook it looses pressurization, you get whacked by a bit of turbulence at this point with reduced pressurization, your going in.

Just sayin,...

Brett Bickford Did Not Commit Suicide.

He is the victim of ignorance and faulty gear. AND as in the movie: "12 Angry Men," of an ignorant and callous jury.

[pchapman 275]

ChrisD2.0

There is another concern about spiraling in the pattern, even when your alone.

Man, what a busy body you are.

The thread is about the holding area. You move it down to the pattern. Then you talk about stuff at 300-100 feet. Then you talk about people coming out of their hooks, which could be 50-5 feet.

Would you like to divert the discussion to talk about turbulence in the stratosphere too? Winds on Mars?

You just spout random stuff about turbulence, thermals, wind shear, whatever. It's more dangerous during a turn! No, it's more dangerous when you come out of a turn! It's all dangerous! Won't somebody think of the children!

(Yes there is some sensible stuff hidden in there within the confusing stuff but it's all rather mixed up together and out of any reasonable context.)

[ChrisD2.0 2]

pchapman

***There is another concern about spiraling in the pattern, even when your alone.

Man, what a busy body you are.

The thread is about the holding area. You move it down to the pattern. Then you talk about stuff at 300-100 feet. Then you talk about people coming out of their hooks, which could be 50-5 feet.

Would you like to divert the discussion to talk about turbulence in the stratosphere too? Winds on Mars?

You just spout random stuff about turbulence, thermals, wind shear, whatever. It's more dangerous during a turn! No, it's more dangerous when you come out of a turn! It's all dangerous! Won't somebody think of the children!

(Yes there is some sensible stuff hidden in there within the confusing stuff but it's all rather mixed up together and out of any reasonable context.)

The 2 incidents a few years ago at Eloy were very much considered at the pattern altitude and yes they were spiraling. Some of these "big Ways" with al of yo alleged experienced jumpers clearly blurred the distinction of a holding area and the pattern, which as yo so elocuntly point out frequently is a blurred area, which again is the issue.

You might as well be wasting your time when speaking about a holding area as compared with a pattern area, this is part of the problem, and yet again is something in these posts yo all seem to not be bothered to mention.
You want to make a distinction between the holding area and the pattern and dis me publickly, all you have done is make my point once again. The issue once again is spiraling. The cure is to ban these skygods period, THEIR NOT GOING TO EVER LISTEN TO ANYONE ANYWAYS.

Brett Bickford Did Not Commit Suicide.

He is the victim of ignorance and faulty gear. AND as in the movie: "12 Angry Men," of an ignorant and callous jury.

[Westerly 61]

ChrisD2.0

And of course thermals as well. While most reasonable DZ's BAN Hooking in, many of these types like to do a flash hook at a slightly highr than landing altitude, more than a few have paid the price for a flashy hook at or about 100 to 300 feet. As their canopy comes out of the hook it looses pressurization, you get whacked by a bit of turbulence at this point with reduced pressurization, your going in.

Just sayin,...

Name one person who was killed because they did a high hook and their canopy collapsed specifically because of it. Provide me the URL to the USPA fatality report.

[yoink 321]

Westerly

***And of course thermals as well. While most reasonable DZ's BAN Hooking in, many of these types like to do a flash hook at a slightly highr than landing altitude, more than a few have paid the price for a flashy hook at or about 100 to 300 feet. As their canopy comes out of the hook it looses pressurization, you get whacked by a bit of turbulence at this point with reduced pressurization, your going in.

Just sayin,...

Name one person who was killed because they did a high hook and their canopy collapsed specifically because of it. Provide me the URL to the USPA fatality report.

I'm guessing ChrisD is rambling about toggle-whipping, as no other type of high-speed approach would leave a canopy under-pressurized after the turn or would be done at those altitudes. As usual he's best ignored.


Regardless, there HAVE been a number of fatalities from canopies collapsing at various altitudes during a high speed landing, so he's right about that.

Star Ruiz Bardavio in 2015 jumps to mind as one.