By their fruits

[RonD1120 58]

billvon

>They could be simply emissaries of Satan and lying to give Christians a bad name.

So Pope Urban II was just an 'emissary of Satan' when he called on all Christians to go and kill Muslims?

That's some very heavy duty rationalization you've got going on there.

>Satan is the father of lies you know. He comes to steal, kill and, destroy.

So did all four Crusades and the Inquisition. And all the priests who molested little boys did a lot of destruction. Does that mean that God is sometimes Satan? Or are you going to have to define all of that as "not Christian?" Do enough of that and you'll have some pretty serious cognitive dissonance to manage.

I'll stand pat on my post. The exploration into hypothetical fantasy is for you to enjoy.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

RonD1120

***>They could be simply emissaries of Satan and lying to give Christians a bad name.

So Pope Urban II was just an 'emissary of Satan' when he called on all Christians to go and kill Muslims?

That's some very heavy duty rationalization you've got going on there.

>Satan is the father of lies you know. He comes to steal, kill and, destroy.

So did all four Crusades and the Inquisition. And all the priests who molested little boys did a lot of destruction. Does that mean that God is sometimes Satan? Or are you going to have to define all of that as "not Christian?" Do enough of that and you'll have some pretty serious cognitive dissonance to manage.

I'll stand pat on my post. The exploration into hypothetical fantasy is for you to enjoy.

So the crusades, the medieval popes (most of them, not just Urban), the Catholic priests, all of that is 'hypothetical'.

Got it.

Like so many other times, when presented with a difficult question, you just run away.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jakee 1,254]

RonD1120

***>They could be simply emissaries of Satan and lying to give Christians a bad name.

So Pope Urban II was just an 'emissary of Satan' when he called on all Christians to go and kill Muslims?

That's some very heavy duty rationalization you've got going on there.

>Satan is the father of lies you know. He comes to steal, kill and, destroy.

So did all four Crusades and the Inquisition. And all the priests who molested little boys did a lot of destruction. Does that mean that God is sometimes Satan? Or are you going to have to define all of that as "not Christian?" Do enough of that and you'll have some pretty serious cognitive dissonance to manage.

I'll stand pat on my post. The exploration into hypothetical fantasy is for you to enjoy.

I don't think you know what the word 'hypothetical' means...

Pope Urban II did exist, and he did say that. The Crusades did happen, and the Inquisition did happen.

These real people engaging in these real events either were emmissaries of satan, or were not. There is nothing hypothetical about it.

(I'm not even going to touch on the fact that you're accusing someone else of engaging in fantasy after bringing satan and his demons into a serious discussion)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,396]

>The exploration into hypothetical fantasy is for you to enjoy.

You believe that Pope Urban II, the Crusades and the Inquisition were all "hypothetical?" You are just going to deny they exist? A fascinating application of denial as a defense mechanism.

======================
Primitive Defense Mechanisms

1. Denial

Denial is the refusal to accept reality or fact, acting as if a painful event, thought or feeling did not exist. It is considered one of the most primitive of the defense mechanisms because it is characteristic of early childhood development. Many people use denial in their everyday lives to avoid dealing with painful feelings or areas of their life they don’t wish to admit. For instance, a person who is a functioning alcoholic will often simply deny they have a drinking problem, pointing to how well they function in their job and relationships.
========================

[RonD1120 58]

billvon

>The exploration into hypothetical fantasy is for you to enjoy.

You believe that Pope Urban II, the Crusades and the Inquisition were all "hypothetical?" You are just going to deny they exist? A fascinating application of denial as a defense mechanism.

======================
Primitive Defense Mechanisms

1. Denial

Denial is the refusal to accept reality or fact, acting as if a painful event, thought or feeling did not exist. It is considered one of the most primitive of the defense mechanisms because it is characteristic of early childhood development. Many people use denial in their everyday lives to avoid dealing with painful feelings or areas of their life they don’t wish to admit. For instance, a person who is a functioning alcoholic will often simply deny they have a drinking problem, pointing to how well they function in their job and relationships.
========================

You are off on a tangent that is unrelated. My post concerned present day people. And you know that.

>They could be simply emissaries of Satan and lying to give Christians a bad name. Satan is the father of lies you know. He comes to steal, kill and, destroy. <

You were talking about that murderer in Norway and now you have gone back centuries.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,254]

RonD1120

You are off on a tangent that is unrelated. My post concerned present day people. And you know that.

What's the difference between present day people and past people?

Is Satan a new invention?

Quote

You were talking about that murderer in Norway and now you have gone back centuries.

So? What stops the same principle from applying?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,396]

>You are off on a tangent that is unrelated. My post concerned present day people. And you know that.

So in the past, Christians were evil and wicked - but now everything is different?

Nope. As the Breivik example demonstrated, this isn't a fantasy, and the world isn't divided into Christians and false prophets/counterfeit religionists/corrupt governments/idolaters/wicked men. Quite often they are one and the same. In fact, quite often they use the claims you posted to maim and murder.

Some other examples: (I will stick to recent examples in case the older examples upset you)

Peter James Knight was a devout Christian. In 2001 he walked into the East Melbourne Fertility Clinic with cans of kerosene and a gun. He killed a security guard before he was overcome by patients and staff. He stated that he intended to massacre the 15 staff and 26 patients at the clinic by burning them alive. He was wicked by any measure.

The Anti-balaka movement in the Central African Republic, a Christian anti-Muslim group, killed hundreds of Muslims in 2014 during riots there. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims fled the violence. They were Christians - and wicked.

In China, the Eastern Lightning is a Christian group, named for Matthew 24:27. Their actions have included breaking people's arms and legs and cutting their ears off. In 2010 they murdered an elementary school student and branded a lightning bolt on his foot. In 2013 they pulled a young boy's eyes out. In 2014 they decided someone in a McDonald's was a "devil" and killed him by stomping on his head until they flattened it. In an interview, the leader of that group said he "felt great" as he stomped on his victim's head.

The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda is a Christian paramiltary group that operates there. Their preferred method of killing is to hack their victims to pieces with machetes. During Christmas in 2008, they murdered 620 people at a concert in the Congo and over 100 at other locations in a simultaneous attack. Most were hacked to death by machetes. Some were sealed in homes and burned. Overall they have killed more than 3000 people in the name of the Lord.

In 2000, a Christian militia attacked and murdered 165 students of Muslim schools in Indonesia.

Here in the US, you might remember the murder of John Lennon. That was by a devout Christian angered by Lennon's statements such as "the Beatles were more popular than Jesus" and "imagine no religion." Chapman, the murderer, claimed "there should be nobody more popular than the Lord Jesus Christ" and accused Lennon of "blasphemy" when he was arrested.

Other Christian murderers in the US:

In 1999, Gary Matson and Winfield Mowder were murdered by white supremacist brothers Benjamin Matthew Williams and James Tyler Williams. They were religious fundamentalists, and neighbors claimed they often heard Christian hymns being played in their house. They murdered the couple because they were gay, and they felt that violated God's law.

In 2009, George Tiller was murdered by Scott Roeder, a Christian who wanted to "strike back" at abortion providers. At trial, Roeder said that God's judgment would "sweep over this land like a prairie wind."

In 2001, Barnett Slepian was murdered by James Kopp, an anti-abortion activist. He claimed the killing was "righteous" because he only meant to cripple, not kill, him. The judge in the case said "What may appear righteous to you is immoral to someone else."

In 2010, the Hutaree group, who claimed to be "Christian warriors" on their website, were stopped just before they embarked on a campaign to kill police officers. They believed that once they started the attacks (with rifles and explosives) against police - who they claimed were working with the Antichrist - other Christians would join them.

In 2015, Robert Lewis Dear killed six people and wounded nine at a shooting at a Planned Parenthood facility. Before the attack he claimed that the "sinners" at Planned Parenthood would "burn in hell" during the End Times, which he said were imminent. He also praised the Army of God and said that attacks on Planned Parenthood clinics were "God's work."

So there's an awful lot of people out there who consider themselves good Christians - and who are also the sort of murdering, immoral, satanic people you describe above. Indeed, many of them claim they are fighting Satan, false prophets, corruption, wickedness and immorality.

Perhaps there is a downside in trying to maintain such a distinction.

[RonD1120 58]

billvon

>You are off on a tangent that is unrelated. My post concerned present day people. And you know that.

So in the past, Christians were evil and wicked - but now everything is different?

Nope. As the Breivik example demonstrated, this isn't a fantasy, and the world isn't divided into Christians and false prophets/counterfeit religionists/corrupt governments/idolaters/wicked men. Quite often they are one and the same. In fact, quite often they use the claims you posted to maim and murder.

Some other examples: (I will stick to recent examples in case the older examples upset you)

Peter James Knight was a devout Christian. In 2001 he walked into the East Melbourne Fertility Clinic with cans of kerosene and a gun. He killed a security guard before he was overcome by patients and staff. He stated that he intended to massacre the 15 staff and 26 patients at the clinic by burning them alive. He was wicked by any measure.

The Anti-balaka movement in the Central African Republic, a Christian anti-Muslim group, killed hundreds of Muslims in 2014 during riots there. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims fled the violence. They were Christians - and wicked.

In China, the Eastern Lightning is a Christian group, named for Matthew 24:27. Their actions have included breaking people's arms and legs and cutting their ears off. In 2010 they murdered an elementary school student and branded a lightning bolt on his foot. In 2013 they pulled a young boy's eyes out. In 2014 they decided someone in a McDonald's was a "devil" and killed him by stomping on his head until they flattened it. In an interview, the leader of that group said he "felt great" as he stomped on his victim's head.

The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda is a Christian paramiltary group that operates there. Their preferred method of killing is to hack their victims to pieces with machetes. During Christmas in 2008, they murdered 620 people at a concert in the Congo and over 100 at other locations in a simultaneous attack. Most were hacked to death by machetes. Some were sealed in homes and burned. Overall they have killed more than 3000 people in the name of the Lord.

In 2000, a Christian militia attacked and murdered 165 students of Muslim schools in Indonesia.

Here in the US, you might remember the murder of John Lennon. That was by a devout Christian angered by Lennon's statements such as "the Beatles were more popular than Jesus" and "imagine no religion." Chapman, the murderer, claimed "there should be nobody more popular than the Lord Jesus Christ" and accused Lennon of "blasphemy" when he was arrested.

Other Christian murderers in the US:

In 1999, Gary Matson and Winfield Mowder were murdered by white supremacist brothers Benjamin Matthew Williams and James Tyler Williams. They were religious fundamentalists, and neighbors claimed they often heard Christian hymns being played in their house. They murdered the couple because they were gay, and they felt that violated God's law.

In 2009, George Tiller was murdered by Scott Roeder, a Christian who wanted to "strike back" at abortion providers. At trial, Roeder said that God's judgment would "sweep over this land like a prairie wind."

In 2001, Barnett Slepian was murdered by James Kopp, an anti-abortion activist. He claimed the killing was "righteous" because he only meant to cripple, not kill, him. The judge in the case said "What may appear righteous to you is immoral to someone else."

In 2010, the Hutaree group, who claimed to be "Christian warriors" on their website, were stopped just before they embarked on a campaign to kill police officers. They believed that once they started the attacks (with rifles and explosives) against police - who they claimed were working with the Antichrist - other Christians would join them.

In 2015, Robert Lewis Dear killed six people and wounded nine at a shooting at a Planned Parenthood facility. Before the attack he claimed that the "sinners" at Planned Parenthood would "burn in hell" during the End Times, which he said were imminent. He also praised the Army of God and said that attacks on Planned Parenthood clinics were "God's work."

So there's an awful lot of people out there who consider themselves good Christians - and who are also the sort of murdering, immoral, satanic people you describe above. Indeed, many of them claim they are fighting Satan, false prophets, corruption, wickedness and immorality.

Perhaps there is a downside in trying to maintain such a distinction.

Perhaps they were liars from the beginning. Perhaps they simply went insane from some organic reason. Perhaps being forced to live under the oppression of progressive liberalism was just too much to bear. Perhaps none of this has anything to do with the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

Perhaps went a person truly repents and surrenders at the cross of Christ and experiences salvation and forgiveness the stories of misfortunates lose all meaning and relevance.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,254]

RonD1120

Perhaps went a person truly repents and surrenders at the cross of Christ and experiences salvation and forgiveness the stories of misfortunates lose all meaning and relevance.

You chose to enter this discussion with an explanation of those stories of misfortune.

So what, it's meaningful enough for you to need to rationalise it, but not meaningful enough for you to bother to examine that rationalisation?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,396]

Quote

Perhaps they were liars from the beginning. Perhaps they simply went insane from some organic reason. Perhaps being forced to live under the oppression of progressive liberalism was just too much to bear. Perhaps none of this has anything to do with the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Perhaps went a person truly repents and surrenders at the cross of Christ and experiences salvation and forgiveness the stories of misfortunates lose all meaning and relevance.

Or perhaps Christians are just like anyone else - some saints, some wicked people that remind you of Satan, mostly average.

[tkhayes 125]

god cannot possibly know your heart if he gave you free will.

[AtrusBatleth 0]

tkhayes

god cannot possibly know your heart if he gave you free will.

That is false. Knowing what a person will choose and that person having free will are not mutually exclusive. It's hard for our finite minds to comprehend, I know, but an analogy might help. I offer my 5 year old, who hates broccoli but loves chocolate, a choice between broccoli or chocolate. I know what they will choose, but they still have free will. Sometimes they might sincerely not know themselves what they will choose, but I do, because I know my child better than they know themselves. God knows you better than you know yourself.

But this is all getting off topic from criticizing Trump officials and his supporters.

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

[tkhayes 125]

ahem....bullshit....ahem....

chocolate and broccoli are not the only choices in life.

[gowlerk 1,910]

There is a whole school of thought that holds that no one has free will. We all react in the only way we can to whatever situation we are in.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[RonD1120 58]

DJL

***Dr James Dobson interviewed Ted Bundy in prison. He stated that Bundy confessed his sins, accepted Christ, and was saved prior to his execution.

It is not so much what you did but where you are at the end. The big unknown for most is when is the end.

And that's the bullshit of religion, that Ted Bundy said he was sorry just before he was executed and that makes it OK.

The Holy Spirit guided me to share this with you.

Luke 23:
39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

The first person that Jesus saved and took to heaven with him was a convicted death row criminal.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[DJL 232]

motionscribe

***Your logic is like not being concerned with guns and bullets until one is pointed at you and you are really sorry that you're now in a situation where you might get shot.

I don't know, it seems that would that be more analogous to an atheist coming face to face with God after they've died.

Ah...so the trick is being sorry just before you die, I'll try to remember that. Because for some reason the point of death is a cosmic barrier to whether someone should or shouldn't believe (and only believe) the Jesus version of the afterlife in the face of no reason that it's more laudable than any other religion, including no religion.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

Quote

Tho we don't, and can never know his motives, we as a society will herald him a hero, and that's fine, I get it.

Has he done a good thing? Is it good that a child is kept alive? Is it good that the parents can see their baby grow up instead of burying it?

And what about his family? Is it good that they have to bury him? Is it good, or somehow even better that his children now have to grow up without a father?

It's tragic. Saying that it's good seems to put more value on some lives over others - for example, the baby's family vs. the man's family, and those that instinctively run vs those that instinctively shield someone.

Quote

Ok, posit a situation where someone's life is saved when the danger does not come from an evil human source. Like, say, a person who dies trying to save others from a non-arson related California wildfire? Is that 'good'?

A nurse or doctor who goes to an area affected by a virulent disease outbreak and in the process is infected and dies. Was that not 'good'?

Again, it's still tragic. Your definition of doing good in this sense is to mitigate the effects of a fallen word, a fallen world in which I believe we're all guilty of playing a role.

We really don't know the depth of our sin and the extent of it's effect on the world. Even batting a hairy eyeball at someone is liable to set off a chemical reaction in their brain that leads to an unfortunate series of events resulting in someone's death or suffering, and so on and so forth, etc., etc., till each and everyone of us is finally dead.

So when it finally comes back around on us, or when we're affected by the sin of someone else, we can become all sympathetic and show empathy, and we can try to limit the pain, but I don't really know if that's a spiritual thing or not - and either way, taking credit for it would be like white men taking credit for freeing the slaves or allowing women to vote. . .

jakee

Quote

What is good is to never have that happen if the first place.

OK, so your direct answer to my direct question is that there is no such thing as a good deed, either in action or in outcome. So, once again, in what way does god care what you do if nothing you can do is good?

One glaring constant throughout scripture is that He cares that we are obedient.

"Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams."

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."

"As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance."

"He replied, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.'"

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

"And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love."

"And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”


And they all said?

[motionscribe 0]

DJL

******Your logic is like not being concerned with guns and bullets until one is pointed at you and you are really sorry that you're now in a situation where you might get shot.

I don't know, it seems that would that be more analogous to an atheist coming face to face with God after they've died.

Ah...so the trick is being sorry just before you die, I'll try to remember that.

So your logic is that you can trick God?

[motionscribe 0]

RonD1120

The first person that Jesus saved and took to heaven with him was a convicted death row criminal.

Amen.

And there are two ways of looking at that.

"Praise God!"

or

"YEEEEEHAWWWWW! THAT MEANS I, OR YOU, OR ANYONE CAN BECOME A SERIAL KILLER AND DO WHATEVER THE HELL WE WANT AND STILL GO TO HEAVEN! I'LL REMEMBER THAT ON MY DEATH BED! GOD IS SUCH A DONKEY!"

[motionscribe 0]

billvon

Quote

Perhaps they were liars from the beginning. Perhaps they simply went insane from some organic reason. Perhaps being forced to live under the oppression of progressive liberalism was just too much to bear. Perhaps none of this has anything to do with the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Perhaps went a person truly repents and surrenders at the cross of Christ and experiences salvation and forgiveness the stories of misfortunates lose all meaning and relevance.

Or perhaps Christians are just like anyone else - some saints, some wicked people that remind you of Satan, mostly average.

Doesn't that fly in the face of your OP that you will know them "by their fruits?"

[jakee 1,254]

motionscribe

***Has he done a good thing? Is it good that a child is kept alive? Is it good that the parents can see their baby grow up instead of burying it?

And what about his family? Is it good that they have to bury him? Is it good, or somehow even better that his children now have to grow up without a father?

His parents are dead, he's not married, and he has no children. What now?

Quote

Again, it's still tragic. Your definition of doing good in this sense is to mitigate the effects of a fallen word, a fallen world in which I believe we're all guilty of playing a role.

Sure. But what is yours? If a doctor doing charitable work in disease stricken parts of the third world isn't good, what is?

Does your definition of good exclude any action that tries to mitigate the effects of what you call a 'fallen world'? In that case, again, it sounds like you're saying there is no such thing as a good deed, because there is no such thing as an unfallen world.

So, again, what are the good things you're supposed to do to prove that you believe if there's no such thing as doing good?

Quote

"And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

And they all said?

You just said that loving your neighbour like yourself is not good but tragic. You've refused to recognise that any external manifestation of love for another human being is ever worthwhile.

If nothing that anyone can do for other people is objectively good, what does god want you to do about loving your neighbour? Your scripture is saying one thing, but your interpretation is simply making it more and more clear that you think god doesn't care what you actually do.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

******Has he done a good thing? Is it good that a child is kept alive? Is it good that the parents can see their baby grow up instead of burying it?

And what about his family? Is it good that they have to bury him? Is it good, or somehow even better that his children now have to grow up without a father?

His parents are dead, he's not married, and he has no children. What now?

Are his instincts to shield another person better than someone's instinct to run?

jakee

Quote

"And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

And they all said?

You just said that loving your neighbour like yourself is not good but tragic. You've refused to recognise that any external manifestation of love for another human being is ever worthwhile.

And you refused to recognise that loving "the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" comes before all that. . .

Edit: And IMO, that really puts our fallen nature into perspective, because I'd suspect that even the best Christian on the planet violates that commandment practically everyday of their life. . .

[jakee 1,254]

motionscribe

*********Has he done a good thing? Is it good that a child is kept alive? Is it good that the parents can see their baby grow up instead of burying it?

And what about his family? Is it good that they have to bury him? Is it good, or somehow even better that his children now have to grow up without a father?

His parents are dead, he's not married, and he has no children. What now?

Are his instincts to shield another person better than someone's instinct to run?

What if he shields the other person and is wounded but they both survive? Or say, jumps in the sea and successfully saves someone's life?

Does that make it a good deed, two living people instead of one dead one?

Quote

And you refused to recognise that loving "the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" comes before all that. . .

Uhh, no I didn't. That's been my entire point this entire time. Everything you're saying just reinforces the point that this is the only thing that matters, and what you actually do and how you treat other people is irrelevant. It's an amoral religion.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,396]

>So your logic is that you can trick God?

Call it a trick if you like. It's a feature that you have said is central to Christianity.

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

It's an amoral religion.

Scripture is quite clear that it's not.