By their fruits

[jakee 1,254]

AtrusBatleth

I called the whole world fallen. It is a fundamental truth taught by scripture. I honestly don't understand why one would take offense at this.... Unless you think we live in a perfect world, why object to calling it fallen? You don't even have to believe in scripture as I do; recognizing the world is imperfect should be something we can all agree on.

To call it 'fallen' because it is imperfect means it was once perfect, and implies it could be perfect if it wasn't for us. That isn't true.

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It is not intended as an insult any more than saying someone with cancer is "sick".

But again, that's not all you're saying. You're saying that the person with cancer is sick, and because they're sick they deserve to die.

Go try that out in a hospital and see how many people are insulted.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 58]

AtrusBatleth

***

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We live in a fallen world where most people do not honor or obey God

But there are so many ways to honour and obey so many ideas of God. The world is not fallen just because the book of ancient ideas you have chosen is not universally accepted. That is a very narrow viewpoint. If there is a creator thank Her that She is God of all, and not just your tribe. The world is full of many tribes. All are worthy in the eyes of the Creator.

The context of my statement (as I already clarified) was a conversation between Christians. As a follower of Christ, I believe in the authority of scripture, and that there is only one god, the creator of all that ever was, is, and ever will be. There are many tribes, and it is god's will that Christians go out and make disciples of every tribe. God loves every person no matter what tribe. But all are "equally worthy" in his eyes, which is to say equally unworthy. God's word makes it clear we are all sinful, and are all in need of being saved through Christ. Only those who believe on Jesus will be saved and considered "worthy" in the eyes of the creator.

That is what I would expect a Christian to understand. But as an unbeliever, I can understand why you dismiss scripture as merely man-made and flawed, just one among many man-made beliefs. That is to your own detriment, but you have that freedom. From a biblical perspective, we live in a fallen world and most people do not honor scripture or obey god.

Re: billvon,
Yes I agree it is sad to see Christians using scripture to support Trump. I can understand those that choose to "tolerate" the man for the sake of some of the secular objectives he has (lesser of two evils argument), but I can't relate to those that think he is actually a believer. He is respectful of believers in certain contexts, sure, but that doesn't make him a believer. I can be respectful of my Muslim family, Jewish and atheist friends, etc, but I don't share their beliefs.

Very well stated and I agree.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[DJL 232]

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I choose to stand with President Trump

Hey Ron, I'm sure you've covered the part of the bible where it says that our time on Earth is a test of our faith and trust in God's word. This is a God who doesn't care if you're from the U.S., Australia, Ethiopia, etc. What if this is YOUR test, whether you choose God and Christ over a politician?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[DJL 232]

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Absolutely I am fallen. I am imperfect, I am a sinner, I deserve death eternal.

I'm not. Yes, I'm imperfect and my moral lapses equate me to a sinner but I also don't seek forgiveness and don't think there's some sort of religious institution that can provide it. If you have done wrong you live with it, you are not absolved. In addition, absolution of those wrongdoings has nothing to do with what will happen to me after I die. I would like to say that there's truth to the common denominator of all religions that you don't just blink out when you die but I can neither confirm nor deny that.

There is also no inherent relationship between morality and religion. Morality exists in every society regardless of whether or not they have a belief. Do you think morality started when the Old Testament was first printed, that those ideas just sprang out of the mist from an angel? How about all of those societies around the world who have no notion of a religion? I am moral because I care about those living in the world around me.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[RonD1120 58]

DJL

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I choose to stand with President Trump

Hey Ron, I'm sure you've covered the part of the bible where it says that our time on Earth is a test of our faith and trust in God's word. This is a God who doesn't care if you're from the U.S., Australia, Ethiopia, etc. What if this is YOUR test, whether you choose God and Christ over a politician?

I'm good, no worries. In 2016 the Holy Spirit guided me to choose between HRC and Donald Trump. Either way, I would still be in God's grace and love.

Jesus the Christ is my Lord and my Savior. Donald Trump is my president.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Niki1 1]

I'm thinking that trump must have signed an executive order rescinding the Golden Rule. And the one about Love Thy Neighbor. We already know he thinks the "Ten Commandments" is multiple choice.

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

gowlerk

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If he had created "perfect humans" that had no choice, there would be no love.

Off topic now, because we've beaten all the corners off of it so that it is round and just going in circles.

The ultimate proof of the falsehood of the Bible? The belief that God created man in his own image. How much conceit can be contained in one belief?

Well, after God created man in his own image, man turned around and returned the favor.

It's rather interesting and very telling that the "God" of any society reflects the morals & values of that society.

And the 'Gods' that have been around a while have undergone numerous changes through time. Or as the various sects diverge and evolve.

Look at the Bible. God went from punishing and vengeful to loving and caring.

DJL

How about all of those societies around the world who have no notion of a religion?

Are there any? (honest question)

As far as I ever knew, every society has had a "God" of some sort. Some sort of supernatural being that protects, punishes or teaches (through prophets).

There's some pretty interesting arguments that religion and gods have evolutionary benefits, both for individuals and for societies.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[SkyDekker 1,121]

I wonder how you would have been screaming had Obama suggested changing the constitution by Executive Order.

[gowlerk 1,905]

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There's some pretty interesting arguments that religion and gods have evolutionary benefits, both for individuals and for societies.

That's why I try to honour most faith traditions. Even newer far out ones. At the end they are all obviously made up by people. All the gods of all the times. Societies have been built around them. The most successful ones are highly patriarchal. Because keeping the females of the tribe under control, and breeding makes them grow.

Do we need religion? Maybe we do. But we also need to keep our religions under control. The best way to do that is to not let any one religion dominate. The best thing about Christianity is it's lack of unity. Muslims may be divided into a couple major groups who kill each other. But Christians have the most variety of beliefs and the biggest number of fights over them.

Long live schisms.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

gowlerk

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There's some pretty interesting arguments that religion and gods have evolutionary benefits, both for individuals and for societies.

That's why I try to honour most faith traditions. Even newer far out ones. At the end they are all obviously made up by people. All the gods of all the times. Societies have been built around them. The most successful ones are highly patriarchal. Because keeping the females of the tribe under control, and breeding makes them grow.

Do we need religion? Maybe we do. But we also need to keep our religions under control. The best way to do that is to not let any one religion dominate. The best thing about Christianity is it's lack of unity. Muslims may be divided into a couple major groups who kill each other. But Christians have the most variety of beliefs and the biggest number of fights over them.

Long live schisms.

Well, I would think that the evolutionary benefits have pretty much passed.

For example, look at Jewish and Islamic dietary laws.

One of the biggies is "no pork."

As Vince & Jules discussed in the coffee shop, bacon tastes good, pork chops taste good, and he was right.
But Jules was also right in that they are filthy animals.

There are pathogens and parasites in pork that can be very dangerous.

Before that sort of thing was understood, they had to find a way to keep people from eating it and dying. So it was 'decreed' that "God doesn't want you to eat this!!!"
And while not everyone who ignored "God" on this died, many did.

Which both reinforced the idea that doing what 'God' said was a good idea, and removed from the population many folks who were inclined to disobey.

Today, we know the reality of the dangers of pork. Proper care & feeding while the pigs are alive, proper care and storage of the meat, proper cooking techniques all mean it's safe to eat.

Yet the religious dietary laws live on.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[DJL 232]

Yes, it can be said that religion got us through some issues we did not understand on a scientific level. Unfortunately, while it was helpful to think that we were punished for eating improperly cooked food it was not so helpful to think that God had killed the crops because there were gay people in the village.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[kallend 1,623]

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I choose to stand with President Trump

Did you ever read the Ten Commandments?

There are bits in there about adultery, cheating, lying, coveting. . . .

All things that your hero has done regularly.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tonyhays 86]

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According to the bible....

Why do you belive the bible? Especially when so many stories are easily proven as myth/didn't happen and the many contradictions?

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[billvon 2,395]

>Did you ever read the Ten Commandments?
>There are bits in there about adultery, cheating, lying, coveting. . . .

You're talking about the commandments from Left Wing Moses.

Right Wing Moses is all about righteous killing of refugees who scare you, adultery if she's hotter than that bag you're married to, grabbing women by the pussy because you can get away with it, working on Sunday to make a few more bucks, stealing from those who couldn't be bothered to succeed like you did, lying because who cares, and cursing out your parents if they don't vote a straight Republican ticket.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

DJL

Yes, it can be said that religion got us through some issues we did not understand on a scientific level. Unfortunately, while it was helpful to think that we were punished for eating improperly cooked food it was not so helpful to think that God had killed the crops because there were gay people in the village.

It also wasn't all that helpful for anyone accused of being a witch.

One of the reasons so many people believe is because in many cases, the skeptics were put to death (for a variety of reasons) while the believers lived on.
So any genetic traits that would reinforce belief are passed on.
Those that reinforce disobedience towards God or skepticism are not.

And no, there's not a 'believe in God' gene. But there are tendencies and traits which would make someone more (or less) inclined to believe that are hereditary.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 2,395]

>Jesus the Christ is my Lord and my Savior. Donald Trump is my president.

And if you and Donald Trump stop trying to trash my Constitution, there would be a little less division and anger in the US.

[JoeWeber 2,297]

AtrusBatleth

I called the whole world fallen. It is a fundamental truth taught by scripture. I honestly don't understand why one would take offense at this. It is not intended as an insult any more than saying someone with cancer is "sick". Unless you think we live in a perfect world, why object to calling it fallen? You don't even have to believe in scripture as I do; recognizing the world is imperfect should be something we can all agree on.

I'm probably making a jackass of myself, but do you derive your nom d' dz.com from a character in Myst and the Klingon fighting weapon?

[RonD1120 58]

billvon

>Jesus the Christ is my Lord and my Savior. Donald Trump is my president.

And if you and Donald Trump stop trying to trash my Constitution, there would be a little less division and anger in the US.

That is interesting.

Specifically, what am I doing to trash your Constitution?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[wmw999 2,120]

And Barack Obama was your president before Trump.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,395]

>Specifically, what am I doing to trash your Constitution?

Supporting the guy who is angered by the First Amendment and who wants to destroy the Fourteenth Amendment.

I can understand your confusion. They probably didn't talk about any of that on OAN.

[normiss 622]

He's planning on doing away with the constitution, at least the parts he doesn't like.
His lawyers tell him he can do it with an EO.
Hold my beer!

[motionscribe 0]

wolfriverjoe

if God created a perfect world, why did he not create perfect humans?

What if perfection means having knowledge of both good and evil?

Perhaps the ability to do evil, such as lying, is just an inherent possibility of self awareness combined with the ability to create and think for oneself?

wolfriverjoe

Look at the Bible. God went from punishing and vengeful to loving and caring.

Not sure what Bible you're reading, but I see a punishing, vengeful, loving and caring God throughout all of scripture.

There are plenty of instances in the OT where God showed mercy, leniency, grace, etc. . .

Many times, even after some of His most terrifying pronouncements, He said to just turn away from your wicked ways and I'll forgive you.

wolfriverjoe

There's some pretty interesting arguments that religion and gods have evolutionary benefits, both for individuals and for societies. . .One of the reasons so many people believe is because in many cases, the skeptics were put to death (for a variety of reasons) while the believers lived on.

Survival of the fittest, perhaps?

wolfriverjoe

So any genetic traits that would reinforce belief are passed on. Those that reinforce disobedience towards God or skepticism are not.

And no, there's not a 'believe in God' gene. But there are tendencies and traits which would make someone more (or less) inclined to believe that are hereditary.

But this wouldn't explain the "preacher's daughter" types or those that suddenly become atheist regardless of generations of believers.

Millions of Christians and other religious types have been killed for their beliefs as apposed to a handful of witches.

By your logic, one could say that religions propensity to kill non believers is an evolutionary trait. But that's just as ridiculous. That is not how evolution works. For starters evolution is a process involving genetic shifts in populations, not individuals.

You're talking about evolutionary psychology which is just unreliable at this time. There are serious questions regarding testability and cognitive assumptions, such as modular brain functioning and the uncertainty of various ancestral environments.

Even if you consider faith a phenotypic trait, given coalescent theory, the average number of generations required to fix an allele in a diploid population is 4 times the effective population, times the selection coefficient of the trait in question.

In other's words, Atheism doesn't really stand a chance. Even if Christianity dies, you'll just end up with a bunch of other faith based populations.

None of this really matters of course, since religion is just a byproduct of evolution anyway.

The propensity toward faith is practically in all of us regardless of how hard you want to fight it.

But whatever, carry on. I just felt the need to respond to your rather misguided use of genetics/evolution in this manner. . .

[motionscribe 0]

AtrusBatleth

My atheist friends, well they think I am just wasting my time and setting back the progress of humanity.

Right. I hear it a lot about how we've held back science and progress for all these hundreds of years. But it's easy to see that many are just as ignorant about science as some of the religious folks they like to scoff at, like a bunch of bird-brained parrots pecking at the keyboard trying to stick it to the Christians, or propagate some misguided scientific "fact" to bolster their own disbelief as if that's the sole purpose of science.

So often they confuse cosmology with biology, and evolution with abiogenesis as if it's all just the Theory of Everything, everything but physics. They believe the big bang was an actual explosion.

Most are ignorant of people like Mendel that were instrumental in cementing Darwin's evolutionary theories. Most don't realize that the Church has funded scientific work, not to mention that many, if not most scholars were religious. There is no a priori conflict between being religious and being a scientist. The schism seems to be of a more modern phenomenon which IMO is most likely connected to the rise of secularism.

[RonD1120 58]

wmw999

And Barack Obama was your president before Trump.

Wendy P.

No, he was the president but he was not mine.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

billvon

>Specifically, what am I doing to trash your Constitution?

Supporting the guy who is angered by the First Amendment and who wants to destroy the Fourteenth Amendment.

I can understand your confusion. They probably didn't talk about any of that on OAN.

I believe you are the one confused if you think anything I express on the SC has an effect on the U.S. Constitution.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.