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rasmack

Looking for non-airworthy Sigma

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Hi people

The Danish Parachute Association is looking to buy a non-airworthy Sigma. As the old Vector 2 tandem rigs are becoming obsolete, our tandem examiners would like to get their hands on a Sigma that won't be used anymore, so that it can be used for ground training of new TI's.

We realize that there's probably some trade-in value with UPT, and we'll of course match that. Does anyone have something, or know someone who might?
HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

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rasmack

Hi people

The Danish Parachute Association is looking to buy a non-airworthy Sigma. As the old Vector 2 tandem rigs are becoming obsolete, our tandem examiners would like to get their hands on a Sigma that won't be used anymore, so that it can be used for ground training of new TI's.

We realize that there's probably some trade-in value with UPT, and we'll of course match that. Does anyone have something, or know someone who might?



I would recommend contacting the manufacturer.

I do recall a conversation more than a few years back that selling non-airworthy rigs was really frowned upon, but I can't remember why.

I'm sure if you contact them they can help you out. Good luck.

You also might want to check out some of the published training requirements for each manufacturers certification.
Brett Bickford Did Not Commit Suicide.

He is the victim of ignorance and faulty gear. AND as in the movie: "12 Angry Men," of an ignorant and callous jury.

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And this is going to be used to train TI's? What is going to be used for the actual jumps? No, they aren't cheap but at about 5500 plus shipping, they aren't that much. Canopies and AAD's can be switched over. Not sure why this is even being considered....

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It is very common for harness training to use a real hanging harness to practice the malfunction Tree solutions. I cant believe you even made your statement and have never been in a harness for training.. sure standing around with a full rig on your back pretending to through drogues and pull handles works but actually throwing drogues and actually pulling handles is 100 times better training..:S:S

Chris

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

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>What is going to be used for the actual jumps?

Actual tandem rigs.

The use of dummy rigs is pretty common. We used a "real" one back in the Brown Field days, but we had more rigs than students most days.

>No, they aren't cheap but at about 5500 plus shipping, they aren't that much.

$50 would probably be considered a better cost for a unairworthy training aid. (But if $5500 is not that much to you, I'm sure they'd appreciate a check!)

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>What is going to be used for the actual jumps?
Actual tandem rigs.

Then why do you need a training tandem harness? I personally have never used a tandem harness for training and I've helped with quite a few courses and have never seen 1 used in any course I've witnessed.

us$50 would probably be considered a better cost for a unairworthy training aid. (But if $5500 is not that much to you, I'm sure they'd appreciate a check!)

A: I doubt you can find a used Sigma rig for that much. UPT charges $1000 to re-harness a rig. It's like brand new when they are done. Can't understand why anyone wude give up a working piece of gear for 50 bucks when they can put it back into service for that much.
B:Clearly you didn't understand that not spending funds on an un-needed gear wude leave more to spend on needed equipment. Like a real rig to make a jump with.

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Seems to be a lot of unneeded noise in this thread. But early Sigmas are well over 10 years old now. I'm sure there are plenty that are not worth reharnessing. And beat up old canopies to fill the containers abound! Add a retired drogue and you have all your handles. Training for the complicated EPs are the weakest part of the whole program. A training aid such as this is a great idea, both for initial and recurrent training.

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Wow... lots of responses. A couple of points.

  • Our examiners were trained by Jay Stokes. If they ask me for something, I assume the request is well founded and legitimate.

  • UPT don't want grounded equipment to leave the factory. I asked. I assume it's a liability issue.

  • Yes, dealing in grounded gear is frowned upon, but as I'm asking on behalf of a national entity, I should be able to convince people that we're not going to let the equipment take to the sky.


  • So... does anyone have an old Sigma lying around?
    HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
    “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
    - Not quite Oscar Wilde...

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    rasmack

    Wow... lots of responses. A couple of points.

  • Our examiners were trained by Jay Stokes. If they ask me for something, I assume the request is well founded and legitimate.

  • UPT don't want grounded equipment to leave the factory. I asked. I assume it's a liability issue.

  • Yes, dealing in grounded gear is frowned upon, but as I'm asking on behalf of a national entity, I should be able to convince people that we're not going to let the equipment take to the sky.


  • So... does anyone have an old Sigma lying around?



    You illustrated my point very nicely.

    The manufacturer doesn't want to touch this. As you point out. But then you ask that the manufacturers experience be disregarded for your personal desires.

    The manufacturer takes safety seriously, they have been doing this longer than you.

    YOUR desire to: "I should be able to convince people " is denied.
    Brett Bickford Did Not Commit Suicide.

    He is the victim of ignorance and faulty gear. AND as in the movie: "12 Angry Men," of an ignorant and callous jury.

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    ChrisD2.0


    The manufacturer takes safety seriously, they have been doing this longer than you.



    The manufacturer takes liability very seriously.

    That's a far, far bigger issue than safety for them in this case.

    Non-airworthy gear is commonly used as training gear.

    Either for jumpers (hanging harness, EP trainers, ect) or for riggers.

    Care needs to be taken to make sure nobody mistakes it for usable, airworthy gear (ask DB Cooper about that one :P).

    But it's common practice.
    "There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

    "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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    Transitioning from a Vector to a Sigma isn't that much different. Your TI"s aren't 1st jump students. There is no need for an "Unairworthy" training harness.
    Keep asking, you'll get the same response. This is a bad idea

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    Never said I haven't been in a training harness. I just haven't been in 1 since my 1st jump course. Last time I checked, a TI isn't a 1st jump student. UPT doesn't require this and there's a good reason for it. Use the real thing. Been working fine so far...

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    wolfriverjoe

    ***
    The manufacturer takes safety seriously, they have been doing this longer than you.



    The manufacturer takes liability very seriously.

    That's a far, far bigger issue than safety for them in this case.

    Non-airworthy gear is commonly used as training gear.

    Either for jumpers (hanging harness, EP trainers, ect) or for riggers.

    Care needs to be taken to make sure nobody mistakes it for usable, airworthy gear (ask DB Cooper about that one :P).

    But it's common practice.

    I'm goanna disagree with this one Joe.

    I started jumping in 1972, its been a long standing policy since then that old, suspect, discarded gear bee cut in half and or placed in the circular bin.

    And this is everywhere, from PI in the 70s' to DeLands manufacturers row where more than one person has been caught dumpster diving. Which is why what goes in the dumpsters is destroyed before it gets there.

    I can remember heated discussions about used gear on E Bay, to fights about what should be done with surplus stuff for man caves for the last 20 years. Other places like Eloy, DeLand, Perris, it has been my experience that used or non airworthy stuff is butchered beyond belief if anyone even attempts to use it under the guise of training.

    I have seen the 3 large gear riggers in this country refuse to give away rain damaged and or suspect gear as compared with cutting it to pieces.

    Some people were killed because of this a few years back. Many of us still remember.

    So ya, theeers more than the liability of the (20 give or take) manufacturers in DeLand behind this. This is an issue that's been around the block and back for years.

    Time for someone to post the pictures of the actual dummy rigs, covered in spray paint, unusable because of things sewn to them, and the harness cut in strategic places, before you make a comment like this is a common practice.
    Brett Bickford Did Not Commit Suicide.

    He is the victim of ignorance and faulty gear. AND as in the movie: "12 Angry Men," of an ignorant and callous jury.

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    Quote

    Then why do you need a training tandem harness? I personally have never used a tandem harness for training and I've helped with quite a few courses and have never seen 1 used in any course I've witnessed.



    Handle placement and harness hookup.
    Maneuvering with student.
    Ground runthroughs.
    Exit practice.

    When I got my tandem rating I used a real tandem rig. The rigs we used got a little abused (constant adjusting, moving around, picking up and dropping etc) but I was fortunate enough to train at a DZ that had plenty of them.

    Surely you are not suggesting that tandem I candidates use no rig at all?

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    Not sure how you came up with that. This post is about using a NON airworthy rig for training instead of just using an airworthy 1. I didn't think anyone cude think you can train with no rig at all. I guess I needed to spell that out better...

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    > This post is about using a NON airworthy rig for training instead of just using an airworthy 1.

    Correct. And given the choice between a $6000 training aid and a $50 one, it would make sense that someone might pursue the $50 one.

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