Troops at U.S. Border to Cost About $210 Million

[SkyDekker 1,120]

BIGUN

***White House has now approved lethal force and limited policing roles for military.

The new “Cabinet order” was signed by White House Chief of Staff John Kelly, not President Donald Trump. It allows “Department of Defense military personnel” to “perform those military protective activities that the Secretary of Defense determines are reasonably necessary” to protect border agents, including “a show or use of force (including lethal force, where necessary), crowd control, temporary detention. and cursory search.”

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2018/11/21/white-house-approves-use-of-force-some-law-enforcement-roles-for-border-troops/

Yes indeed, approval of lethal force and limited policing roles.

[wmw999 2,116]

Bigun, I’m going to join the objection to using feminine (or effeminate) as a bad thing when applied to anything. Using the current model of government and business management as the apex, rather than simply the logical conclusion to a longtime male-dominated society, might eliminate a whole lot of possibilities.

I’m a woman. It’s OK (even admirable) for me to have masculine qualities, as long as I don’t achieve “bitch” status . The only heterosexual man it’s OK to have what could be called effeminate characteristics is Mr. Rogers.

As a by-the-by, I’m on my second table saw. How many guys would admit to scrapbooking?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 18]

So you did think it's extra money? Or just money spent anyway just diverted to the border?

By the way, if it was double that I would still support it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,380]

>By the way, if it was double that I would still support it

Of course.

If it was 100x as expensive you would still support it.

If it was free and Obama did it you'd oppose it.

[BIGUN 1,048]

Jakee,

While you bring up some salient points that could be addressed...

Quote

What is it with you pretending to be an idiot today?

Treading so close to the PA line doesn't motivate me to address the points you present. It just makes me want to walk away to keep it from getting too close to a schoolyard pissing contest.

Have a good day. Well, evening.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

Treading so close to the PA line doesn't motivate me to address the points you present. It just makes me want to walk away to keep it from getting too close to a schoolyard pissing contest.

Well, that's one way to avoid having to examine the fact that you're absolutely wrong on this one.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[normiss 620]

Or you could insult and attack people in your efforts to get to the same result.

[BIGUN 1,048]

jakee

Quote

Treading so close to the PA line doesn't motivate me to address the points you present. It just makes me want to walk away to keep it from getting too close to a schoolyard pissing contest.

Well, that's one way to avoid having to examine the fact that you're absolutely wrong on this one.

I wouldn't have expected anything different. Have a good night.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[jakee 1,254]

BIGUN

***

Quote

Treading so close to the PA line doesn't motivate me to address the points you present. It just makes me want to walk away to keep it from getting too close to a schoolyard pissing contest.

Well, that's one way to avoid having to examine the fact that you're absolutely wrong on this one.

I wouldn't have expected anything different. Have a good night.

Ok look, I apologise for calling you an idiot, it wasn't needed.

However, you did say something that at face value was quite racist, you did use what you must know were fallacious logical contortions in trying to support what you said, and you did something pretty offensive in describing society as effeminate and therefore bad, and then refused to even attempt to say what you think an effeminate society is, let alone why it's a bad thing.

To put it mildly, you're not doing very well right now.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,380]

>Well, that's one way to avoid having to examine the fact that you're absolutely wrong on this one.

From the Personal attacks sticky at the top of the page:

=============
It doesn't matter if you think it is true or not. You can't post such messages here.
=============

Your one warning.

[BIGUN 1,048]

After exchanging a couple of PM's on here with Bill. Allow me take a step back on "Effeminate," please.

Quote

Billvon: But it sounds like you are not using it like that. It sounds like you are using "effeminate" to mean weak, incapable, powerless, feeble. Unable to keep up. A pansy.

It sounds like you are using "effeminate" to mean weak, incapable, powerless, feeble. Unable to keep up. A pansy.

Very much NOT my intent and if it's coming across that way - I'm not sure if it's something in my writing or if it's a legacy bias. Effeminate; to me and the way I read Hofstede's material - is a trait; not a behavior.

Quote

HOFSTEDE: Masculinity vs. femininity (MAS): In this dimension, masculinity is defined as “a preference in society for achievement, heroism, assertiveness and material rewards for success.” Its counterpart represents “a preference for cooperation, modesty, caring for the weak and quality of life.” Women in the respective societies tend to display different values. In feminine societies, they share modest and caring views equally with men. In more masculine societies, women are somewhat assertive and competitive, but notably less than men. In other words, they still recognize a gap between male and female values.

In this thread - Bill used the word "Slur" when referring to "effeminate." It really caught me off-guard. I had never thought of the word effeminate as a slur; but a trait and something that is what it is... no different than green eyes, tall or short, white or black.

I think there's nothing more beautiful than a woman that is strong, powerful, ambitious, goal achiever, etc. Their trait is female. Their actions are behaviors. A behavior can be changed; a trait is essentially impossible to change. For example, you may react to certain situations with anger or violence—but that is a learned behavior and can be changed. You are born with certain color eyes; even if you wear colored contacts, your eyes are still naturally the same color as they were when you were born. This is a trait.

For me; I think the line of demarcation is the difference between using "effeminate" as a noun (From Latin; meaning woman" (Trait) to that of using "effeminate as an adjective which is derogatory, of a man or boy, exhibiting behaviors or mannerisms considered typical of a female." Quite frankly, I did not know this until looking it up. I have only known it as the noun.

For me - the "trait" was being a woman; the behaviors something totally different.

If the world believes the term "Effeminate" as an adjective and therefore; derogatory... perhaps I should change my verbiage.

Keith

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[billvon 2,380]

> I had never thought of the word effeminate as a slur; but a trait and something that is what it is

Well, I think the reason people thought that was that you said that lots of people were trying to create an "effeminate, I'm a victimized oppressed culture who should all be so ashamed of ourselves, cry and beg forgiveness for whatever person standing in front of you telling you how you've offended them that day."

Those are all negative things. It's like saying to someone "that guy is totally gay! Limp wristed, lispy, whines like a baby, could never stand up to a real man." There's no way you could go back and say "no, I was just using 'gay' to indicate his sexual preference and I didn't mean it as a slur at all." It was clear from the context that it was a slur.

Effeminate means like a woman. And using the definition you posted, I don't think you are railing against societies that show "a preference for cooperation", that show "modesty", or that "care for the weak." You are railing against societies that have people that cry and beg, that are ashamed all the time, that are fearful of causing the least offense. Conflating "effeminate" with all of that is what led people to think you meant it as a slur (IMO.)

[gowlerk 1,902]

I took Keith's, and others use of the word effeminate to mean "less than a man". If you wanted to use a term with a more positive meaning you could use "feminine". Effeminate is a word almost always used to insult a man. You know that and I know that.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[BIGUN 1,048]

I get it, Bill.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[BIGUN 1,048]

gowlerk

I took Keith's, and others use of the word effeminate to mean "less than a man". If you wanted to use a term with a more positive meaning you could use "feminine". Effeminate is a word almost always used to insult a man. You know that and I know that.

But, and I mean this with all sincerity - did not know that. Now, I gots to look up "Feminine" to make sure I get that right.

EDIT:

OK. so, I looked up Feminine and even Hofstede's use of, "In feminine societies,"

So, I apologize for using the word, "effeminate."

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

In this thread - Bill used the word "Slur" when referring to "effeminate." It really caught me off-guard. I had never thought of the word effeminate as a slur; but a trait and something that is what it is... no different than green eyes, tall or short, white or black.

Dude. Seriously. You said you meant it as a slur. "1. I see the effeminization of the US as a bad path."

If you said society was getting shorter and you saw that as a bad thing, short people would probably be pissed off with you. If you said you'd seen a lot of green eyes around and that was a bad thing, people would probably wonder what you had against green eyed people.

Quote

For me - the "trait" was being a woman; the behaviors something totally different.

So society is becoming more like a woman.

Ok... now you're really going to have to explain why you don't like beng in a society that is more influenced by women.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[SkyDekker 1,120]

Quote

Dude. Seriously. You said you meant it as a slur. "1. I see the effeminization of the US as a bad path."

That isn't using it as a slur. I see the move to the political right in parts of Europe as a bad path. But that doesn't mean political right is a slur.

He apologized for what the use of the word, much more than most would do here.

[jakee 1,254]

SkyDekker

Quote

Dude. Seriously. You said you meant it as a slur. "1. I see the effeminization of the US as a bad path."

That isn't using it as a slur. I see the move to the political right in parts of Europe as a bad path. But that doesn't mean political right is a slur.

Yeah OK, that's fair enough. I don't think the exact word is the problem. Replace it with a different word and you could say "The US is becoming more female and I see that as a bad path" and I'd still have all the same questions for him.

1) What does that mean (in non-restroom related terms)?

2) Why is it bad?

3) How could he not think it would be offensive to anyone?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[tkhayes 124]

we could have gotten more for the $200m by bribing congress with that money to actually address the faulty immigration policies we have.....

the entire CBP budget is $14B/year.... think of what they could do if they have 2B a year more, but instead, we fucking blow money throwing troops around to do absolutely NOTHING, accomplish absolutely NOTHING, effect NO CHANGE, cause NO effect, and do NO good at all.

ANYONE who stands here and tosses around $200M as a pittance, and therefore 'ok with it' is not any american that i want to know or anyone I want to befriend.

For decades we have heard nothing but outrage and screaming from the right about wasting money and government spending and how much Obama spent on this and that....

fucking crickets here.... hypocrites, every fucking one of you

That money would put thousands of students through college, would build hospitals for veterans, would build roads and bridges and it is unbelievable and pretty much treasonous to spend money on the military for political gains.

If there ever was a reason to impeach a president, this one tops all of it. Trump is fucking prat. a twat.... a pillock, a moppet.

And congress has zero balls, (not even balls - since they actually support all of it) so we are destined to see RonD's dream of an autocracy pretending to be a democracy in place soon as the checks and balances are moot and done for.

[normiss 620]

Are CBP employees legally protected from following unlawful orders like US military are?
Yay. AmeriKKKa. Again.

[SkyDekker 1,120]

normiss

Are CBP employees legally protected from following unlawful orders like US military are?
Yay. AmeriKKKa. Again.

Generally the Rules of Engagement are more strict for US military in war zones than for US LEO in your communities.

[BIGUN 1,048]

SkyDekker

***Are CBP employees legally protected from following unlawful orders like US military are?
Yay. AmeriKKKa. Again.

Generally the Rules of Engagement are more strict for US military in war zones than for US LEO in your communities.

Profound observation

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[DJL 232]

BIGUN

******Are CBP employees legally protected from following unlawful orders like US military are?
Yay. AmeriKKKa. Again.

Generally the Rules of Engagement are more strict for US military in war zones than for US LEO in your communities.

Profound observation

There's a Duffleblog humor piece about that, about how soldiers wish they had the freedoms against enemy combatants that US LEO's have against US citizens.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[normiss 620]

Mexico isn't even in our country, much less our communities.

[normiss 620]

Can we rename Texas to East Germany yet?
We should really prepare for this to play out.

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/28/671472765/trump-is-expected-to-extend-u-s-troops-deployment-to-mexico-border-into-january?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=2057&fbclid=IwAR03pJsPldGKN3tCSmQK5-QzAWw3Jh010fi9uqNmLpq9hGkU08YnV-1t2_8