skydiverek 54 #51 December 7, 2018 rjklein4470***Quote Question1: I think I recall that it is OK to convert the dual RSL to a more standard single riser RSL? In the field. Yes or No? Yes, there is an approved alteration for rigs that did not come with a Single sided RSL that can be done by any Master rigger. Most new Racers I have seen since ~2015 have single sided RSLs from the Factory. I have a November 2018 Racer, unassembled, sitting 3 feet from me right now. Absolutely great rig - Single sided RSL, Stainless steel hardware, spacer foam backpad and legpads, Type 13 harness, double tuck magnetic riser covers, contrast stitching, articulation, etc. I would put it against any 2018 rig on the market today. pictures plz Is it Classic Racer, or Racer 2K3 ? . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,116 #52 December 7, 2018 To me, an AAD helps protect me more from external issues (hitting someone, etc). An RSL helps to protect against my own judgment ("I have enough time to fix this"). Neither will replace judgment or preparation, they just widen the window of survival in some situations. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crapflinger2000 1 #53 December 7, 2018 jacketsdb23 IMPORTANT: RSL's and AAD's are not interchangeable. They serve very different functions. Also, having the RSL attached should not change your decision making process. Not sure if you were pointing this out to me or to the general populace, but FWIW I DO know that. However in basic function they ARE similar in that they activate the reserve in way that is not DIRECTLY controlled by me. The point I was trying to make was that for me personally, I only wanted one such device on my rig. __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #54 December 7, 2018 Quote s it Classic Racer, or Racer 2K3 ? In 2017 - 2018, I have personally assembled and delivered ~14 new Racers. 13 have been 2K3s and 1 has been a classic, all with the Single Sided RSL. 2018 Racer 2K3 Unassembled Side Detail Hip Junction Detail Personal Rig Riser Cover Detail Navy Rig 2017 Custom 2K3 Tacky Rig - 2018 I have way more images - let me know if there is any feature on a New Racer that anybody would like to see. =========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeeroyJenkins 2 #55 December 7, 2018 Unstable Quote s it Classic Racer, or Racer 2K3 ? In 2017 - 2018, I have personally assembled and delivered ~14 new Racers. 13 have been 2K3s and 1 has been a classic, all with the Single Sided RSL. 2018 Racer 2K3 Unassembled Side Detail Hip Junction Detail Personal Rig Riser Cover Detail Navy Rig 2017 Custom 2K3 Tacky Rig - 2018 I have way more images - let me know if there is any feature on a New Racer that anybody would like to see. A non round main pin cover flap would be nice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sedsquare 14 #56 December 7, 2018 I feel bad for the guy or girl whose new rig now has the label "Tacky Rig - 2018" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HPC 7 #57 December 30, 2018 Two extra brain cells - one for each reserve pin!😉What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HPC 7 #58 December 30, 2018 Yeah, I agree - that wasn't very nice and was certainly avoidable.What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HPC 7 #59 January 1, 2019 Can you elaborate on the things you would add/delete/change? Thx.What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gb1 2 #60 January 1, 2019 There are at least 8 different items ranging from cosmetic to dangerous. All part of the continuing development process that is in the wrong direction or in neutral with this rig. " We got it right the first time" is typical BS from that direction causing the lack of credibility. It is not my intention to help develop that rig again when my experimental rig is not complete yet. BTW, I highly respect Nancy L, for her accomplishments, knowledge, participation, and actions with the sport and that company. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #61 January 1, 2019 i am going to call nancy to order a new racer, mine is a '98 (classic) and well used. highly under-rated rig imo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpsracer 5 #62 January 2, 2019 Hope you don't try and use the "design your Racer" function on thier website. It's been down going on three months! I lost an order because of it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HPC 7 #63 January 3, 2019 I've never been able to get it up and running, at least not for the Racer Classic.What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #64 January 3, 2019 (edited to add: sorry its long, but mine is not a simple experience/opinion, and I don't think that short "sound-bites" would due it justice) I have mixed feelings about the Racer, and they are not made better by some of the responses from the company... I grew up with Vectors (and like them), I own a Jav Ody (and like it alot) as well as a Racer 2k3. I have been a rigger for almost 20 years and wish all the good items could be combined in one rig (haven't found it yet)... IMHO - The Racer has several good points: - comfortable (very) - heavier webbing and locked in construction (less/no hardware slippage issues) - poptop with adjustable loop* - main pin bridle design And the rig has several points that raise concern: - double ended RSL with its out-of-sequence deployment/cutway failure mode when the jumper follows industry standard training. Owners with a double ended RSL MUST educate themselves on this issue. - loaning the rig to other jumpers can be problematic. - poptop with adjustable loop* - somewhat non-standard reserve closing proceedures - very non-standard freebag that will appear to bag-lock during floor deployments.** - a non-rigger owner MUST ensure they have a rigger who is experienced with the differences in this rig. - manual is a patchwork of the very old, old, new, vague, specific, etc instructions and pictures. Yes, I know doing a completely revamped manual is work (I've assisted on some, done others), but its long overdue. (the video they provide on packing the reserve is reasonably well done) * the poptop itself is, I believe a good thing in that there are NO flaps restricting its movement. The adjustable loop means that its length can be tailored to the pack conditions after its pinned, rather than reopening the rig and adjusting the loop as with other rigs. The problem I have is two fold: One is that someone other than the rigger responsible for the repack can cause an impossible pull without having to open (break seal) on the rig. Second is that it is very hard to test the pull force without poping the pins on this rig. These two issues combine to make for a bad situation. **I'm not the only one to experience this, but the factory says while they've seen it on the floor, it doesn't happen in the air... My bigger problem is with some aspects of the company: #1 The public impression of their attitude - by definition, its not our rig/ staff/ packing/ design/ manual/ attitude/ website that is the problem, it is the jumper/ rigger/ packer/ someone else that is the problem. - our way is the only way to do it right, all others will kill you. (I think Nancy is a moderating force in this, much of the time, when you talk to her personally...) #2 Personal customer experience: As a rigger, I wanted to learn the Racer and after talking at length to Nancy placed an order. I emphasised that as I was new to the Racer I specifically wanted them to provide me with one of their own reserves with the two sized for a light packjob. (i.e. NOT tight pack) The rig arrived from the factory with their reserve packed in their rig by their staff with a pull force over twice the legal limit. Upon inspection it was found that one of the pins had been bent. Sent it back. When it returned, the pull force was still in the upper 20's. Subsequent repacks by the local Racer experts (including long-time riggers, Masters and a DPRE) the conclusion was that the reserve/container pairing was a VERY tight combination, and the best they could manage was a marginal 22-lb pull (after it settled for a few days) with the pop-top rim lightly seated. Due to personal/family issues, the process of determining that this was unresolvable took way too long on my part to insist on a refund. But the factory feedback was always "its fine, it just needs to be packed correctly... try again" Ultimately I've paired the rig with another reserve that fits it properly and put the AngleFire in a new Javelin. PS - When the Javelin arrived, packed with the AngleFire to which Sunpath was ask to build it, it was again a very hard pull... Sent it back to Sunpack and got a VERY swift response. Their senior staff communicated with me directly about how they analized the packjob, (videoed the opening/unpacking), determined the fault was one of their staff, took corrective action to ensure it never happened again and packed it several times with measured test-pulls to ensure there was no fundimental issue with the rig or reserve pairing. This was a very different experience and gave me great confidence in continuing to use the Jav with the AngleFire. Bottom Line: - I REALLY like many things about the Racer over an above other rigs. - I will NOT pack a rig with an adjustable loop unless I trust the owner not to F with it, but bring it to me if there is an adjustment that needs to be made. - If you are getting a Racer, first make sure you have a trusted rigger that knows the Racer. - 90% of the issues I have with owning a Racer are corporate response and attitude/customer relations/ public facing issues. These are the same issues that have killed other parachute companies and I believe is keeping this one from being the major player in the market that it once was, and could be again. Just my $.02, JW [Firesuit]Always remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #65 January 3, 2019 I feel a similar way. My first rig was a Racer and I liked it a lot. Very comfortable. The velcro was a nightmare, because like most new jumpers all my money went to jumping, not to getting the velcro replaced regularly. (Or the risers/lines that the velcro damaged.) But it served me well for over a thousand jumps, and finally retired in the sands of Burning Man after almost 20 years. Since then I have borrowed, demoed and packed a lot of Racers. And overall I like them. But I would hesitate to recommend them for new jumpers because: 1) Newer jumpers may not understand the risks of the two sided RSL very well and/or listen to marketing hype 2) The slightly odd main closing sequence may slightly increase the risk of premature deployments if, again, a jumper is not familiar with it 3) Newer jumpers may just use the rigger they are comfortable with, the DZ rigger, or some other easily accessible rigger rather than a Racer-familiar rigger. All that being said, the one exception to that is very small women. Jumpshack/Parachute Labs does a great job fitting rigs to people with unusual body shapes (like small women.) And for small women, a good fit is very important - thus the caveat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpsracer 5 #66 January 3, 2019 Slightly odd closing sequence? Bottom, left, right, top. Nothing odd about that. (Classic Racer) Racer 2k looks like a diaper bag to me! Lol Order single side RLS or one without it. I am a bit biased...been jumping Racers since 1976! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeeroyJenkins 2 #67 January 4, 2019 jumpsracerSlightly odd closing sequence? Bottom, left, right, top. Nothing odd about that. (Classic Racer) Racer 2k looks like a diaper bag to me! Lol Order single side RLS or one without it. I am a bit biased...been jumping Racers since 1976! Most rigs are bottom/top or top/bottom first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #68 January 4, 2019 >Slightly odd closing sequence? Bottom, left, right, top. Nothing odd about that. It's different than most rigs. Not a big deal for experienced jumpers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeeroyJenkins 2 #69 January 4, 2019 billvon>Slightly odd closing sequence? Bottom, left, right, top. Nothing odd about that. It's different than most rigs. Not a big deal for experienced jumpers. I’m still new, has any fatality been attributed to an improper closing sequence on modern rigs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HPC 7 #70 January 4, 2019 Quote- I REALLY like many things about the Racer over an above other rigs. Could you list these?What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #71 January 4, 2019 Sure I'm forgetting something... but these come to mind... Not saying these are exclusive to the Racer, but things I don't see on some other rigs: - Comfort of the harness - pop-top - the ease of freebag extraction once activated - Use of type 13 webbing (not simply strength, but I've had issues with other rig's legstrap hardware slipping... not with the Racer) - harness junctions designed to hold despite hypothetical stitch failure. - main bridle pin attachment design and bridle routing - open bottom corners of the reserve container (dont' think flat open like some main containers, but openings with tuck covers that allow the reserve risers to be snugged down after the contianer is closed/pinned) - pin location - price Things I don't like: - speedbag hasn't gained my trust (yet?) - adjustable reserve loop - double-ended RSL - lack of MARD option - reserve ripcord design doesn't facilitate use of a pull tension tester to validate pull force (especially on a field adjustable reserve loop) - discussing Racers with cult members (not everyone who jumps a Racer is one, but they are the most vocal...) JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davidw 1 #72 January 4, 2019 Unless something has changed the Jump Shack actually has closing flap sequence placarded on the top main flap in plain sight so people can see it every time they close the main tray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #73 January 4, 2019 QuoteUnless something has changed the Jump Shack actually has closing flap sequence placarded on the top main flap in plain sight so people can see it every time they close the main tray. Agreed. Not a big deal for an experienced jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #74 January 4, 2019 >I’m still new, has any fatality been attributed to an improper closing sequence on modern rigs? A few PC-in-tows that I am aware of. (Including me) I don't know if any resulted in fatalities. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #75 January 4, 2019 billvon>I’m still new, has any fatality been attributed to an improper closing sequence on modern rigs? A few PC-in-tows that I am aware of. (Including me) I don't know if any resulted in fatalities. ————————————————- Most pilot-chutes-in-tow are caused by miss-routed bridles. ..... specifically if the bridle is routed under a flap between the pin and the BOC. Most containers will still open even if you confuse left and right flaps. Whether they close the bottom or top flap first is determined by where the closing loop is anchored: pack tray, mid wall, bottom flap, top flap, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
