Re: [stemartin72] Triple Fatality - Ludovic Woerth

[base283 0]

Pick any extreme sports maturations. One will see the same. Skydiving for instance. It has leveled off around 55 fatals per year. So maybe one would want to say that there are more skydivers. Maybe let's say some with less participants. Formula 1. Formula 1 has had more fatalites than modern wingsuiting over the history (I am not counting 2014 for either).
What I am trying to show, is think of statistics as colors. Paint whatever picture you want. We all have our stats to back them up.

@ stemartin72.

Quote

1._Yes. Cameras kill people. Also when the camera on the safety helmet becomes entangled in the parachute when deploying (R.I.P. Kylie Tanti).
2_This being said, as viewers we also bear some responsibility. By making Redbull's "We are amazing" shit popular, we encourage unexperienced jumpers to do crazy stunts.
3_The issue with wingsuit base jump is this sport is still at the early age of exploration (with relatively low experience built up so far, no clear cut rules, etc.) + You Tube and Go Pro arrived way too early.

1_Why place the blame on the camera? The camera was just sitting there. The wind blew the bridle around the mount. I am just following your lack of finishing the equation.
2_We as viewers bear no responsibility. The individual jumpers themselves are responsible for themselves individually. That goes for everyone in a sane, mature state of mind. All extreme sports that I know of are against encouraging unexperienced or experienced participants to do crazy stunts.
3_I agree.
take care,
space

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi craddock,

Quote

Cameras are killing people.

On 1 Jan 1965 Rod Pack jumped out an airplane over Taft, California without a parachute. There were at least two cameramen on the jump with him.

LOOK magazine had the rights to the stills and the film of the jump. They wanted better photos/ film and asked Rod to make another chuteless jump so they could better photos/film.

He told them to go pound sand.

It is what it is.

JerryBaumchen

[LloydDobbler 2]

stemartin72

Read me more carefully and you will understand this: I am not saying that money drives everyone. I am just saying that extreme sports athletes may sometimes be in a position where they have to push their limits to get the sponsors which will allow them to finance gear, research & development of new equipement etc. Yes. Jumping is a great and addictive experience. But dont' be naive. We live in a very material world.

They may sometimes be in that position, yes. And they may be not in that position.

But if they find themselves in that position, rest assured, it's a choice they make of their own free will.

Regardless, here's the thing: speaking as a very close friend of one of the deceased (and an acquaintance of the other two), I can tell you for a fact: these guys were not doing this because "we live in a very material world."

They were pushing limits, yes - but pushing them because they wanted to. And when a sponsor went and titled a video "the lowest a wingsuit flyer has ever flown - you have to see this to believe it," I can also guarantee you they weren't the ones who wrote that title - nor did they feel responsibility to go do something else similar as a result of that title. (I had that exact conversation with them - did you?)

In my discussions with them, these three jumpers wanted to use their skills to do things that we never before thought possible. That's why they were in this sport. They loved pushing the boundaries - just like Chuck Yeager loved flying the X-1A. And they would have continued to do it without sponsors - again, just like Yeager did, when he saw that Slick Goodlin had demanded $150k to break the sound barrier.

Now, from your lack of a profile, obviously none of us know who you are. And if you are an acquaintance or relative of one of the jumpers in this incident - from what you're posting, I imagine you didn't have much discussion with them about why they were proximity flyers. Or at the very least, you never came to an understanding of it.

So I wish you peace in trying to cope with this loss. Those of us who knew them can all understand your grief, as we're going through it, too. It sucks. It sucks bad.

But I can tell you that once you're done looking for someone to blame, once you've barked up all the trees out there, you're still going to have to deal with the loss. No amount of misguided regulation you manage to pass is going to bring them back. So I wish you peace in your search - the sooner you realize that the only people to blame in this are the jumpers themselves, the easier your mourning will be.

The three jumpers made a mistake. A big mistake. They could have mitigated it by pulling when they found they were on the wrong route. Or not getting in that helicopter. Or not moving to Europe. Or not getting into BASE. Or not flying wingsuits. Or never starting skydiving to begin with.

But they didn't. They knew the risks, and they accepted them. And based on my knowledge of them, they would be extraordinarily disappointed that someone was trying to use their deaths as a platform to advance some sort of agenda.

Signatures are the new black.

[skypuppy 1]

my understanding is that they were on the wrong route. I thought I saw video from google earth of what some of these proximity flights would look like used in preparation for flying a new route. I know gps etc are improving all the time. I'm wondering if the technology is close to be able to superimpose the route in a heads up display inside your visor as you fly, to avoid heading into the wrong area?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Doug_Davis 0]

skypuppy

my understanding is that they were on the wrong route. I thought I saw video from google earth of what some of these proximity flights would look like used in preparation for flying a new route. I know gps etc are improving all the time. I'm wondering if the technology is close to be able to superimpose the route in a heads up display inside your visor as you fly, to avoid heading into the wrong area?

Yeah. Jeb's used it.

[SoCalJumper 0]

I had heard a report that due to this incident all Swiss helicopters are no longer flying any wingsuit pilots to altitude.

[piisfish 135]

SoCalJumper

I had heard a report that due to this incident all Swiss helicopters are no longer flying any wingsuit pilots to altitude.

you heard wrong. A big company decided to stop catering to the proxy jumpers. The rest might follow though.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Hellis 0]

skypuppy

my understanding is that they were on the wrong route. I thought I saw video from google earth of what some of these proximity flights would look like used in preparation for flying a new route. I know gps etc are improving all the time. I'm wondering if the technology is close to be able to superimpose the route in a heads up display inside your visor as you fly, to avoid heading into the wrong area?

I believe reception could be a problem.
Down in the valley GPS reception is bad, but it could be better higher up.
But even if it is better, a "glitch" in reception giving the pilot incorrect data could be enough to distract him/her during a critical moment.

[DSE 3]

Doug_Davis

***my understanding is that they were on the wrong route. I thought I saw video from google earth of what some of these proximity flights would look like used in preparation for flying a new route. I know gps etc are improving all the time. I'm wondering if the technology is close to be able to superimpose the route in a heads up display inside your visor as you fly, to avoid heading into the wrong area?

Yeah. Jeb's used it.

I pray your understanding and acceptance of GPS in goggles isn't based on "Jeb's used it."

There is a reason these goggles aren't commonly used in BASE or skydiving. A bit more research might help you understand why. Please don't decide you won't jump them because "DSE said you shouldn't" any more than you should use them because "Jeb did."

We'll never know what Dan, Ludo, or Brian were thinking when they made this last flight. We can surmise all day long about winds, wrong line, sponsors, whatever, and still not know the truth.
The one truth that everyone who knew Brian, Ludo, or Dan can put as gospel; this was their passion, their love, their chase. They all knew the risks, I'd had several conversations with Brian on this topic. They didn't push closer because the camera was there. They'd have done this with or without cameras, with or without Epic TV, with or without fame. True passion works like that.

[ianyapxw 0]

So what do you think, do you think people like us are to blame because we also consume (and sometimes demand) such videos to be produced?

[ianyapxw 0]

We also have to remember that some of these people who go in are among the best and brightest in the sport.

Someone in the incidents thread compared this to low pull contests. While I see a lot of flaws in the comparison, there is a certain element of truth as people are pushed to do something more dangerous to be 'better'.

[ianyapxw 0]

BIGUN

******************It does not appear to be a triple fatality.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11229383

Condolences to friends & family.

it is a triple fatality. go read the other thread that was locked due to un-educated post like the first post here.

If YOU go read the other post... the title was changed to "Double Fatality" by the 10th post. Anyway, IMO this whole thread should be deleted by a mod.

You are an idiot. You should read the whole post. You know where it says that they pulled Brian off life support.


It would appear to be the case that it was originally entitled "Double Fatality" and when Brian passed: one of the moderators changed it to Triple. Simple out of sequence, different threads, postings and not being on here for a few days. Let's refrain from the personal attacks.

Let's read all the info before making post that make us look like idiots.

Enough.

+1, you're the better man.

Respect.

[ianyapxw 0]

I know this guy is a new account making first post on a controversial topic but he raises many valid points

Trafficdiver

Ahh...so you're trying to get money from Red Bull.

Why would you even believe this?

Quote

Maybe you should try a tandem sometime to understand that money does not drive everyone to push their limits.

How does trying a tandem change the fact that money encourages people to push limits? I don't even know what's up for discussion, sure money doesn't push everyone but no one can sensibly deny money pushes some people to do things they would not, whether it's in business, religion or sport.

[megamalfunction 1]

"A near miss leaves you traumatized. A remote miss makes you think you are invincible." - Malcolm Gladwell

[Trafficdiver 8]

ianyapxw

I know this guy is a new account making first post on a controversial topic but he raises many valid points

***Ahh...so you're trying to get money from Red Bull.

Why would you even believe this?
he clearly says he is interested in more regulation in this sport and regulation means more money coming from everyone's pocket, including Red Bull. He does not deny this fact either. Is he a family member who personally wants to sue Red Bull? I don't know because he does not fill out personal info, so Ill go ahead and assume because I can

Quote

Maybe you should try a tandem sometime to understand that money does not drive everyone to push their limits.

How does trying a tandem change the fact that money encourages people to push limits? I don't even know what's up for discussion, sure money doesn't push everyone but no one can sensibly deny money pushes some people to do things they would not, whether it's in business, religion or sport.

Trying a tandem would help him understand than flying your body is such an incredible experience that the thrill of it alone is worth doing it. Of course money pushes some people to take some risks (ask any roofer if he does it for the love of roofing alone) but that certainly does not mean that these individuals pushed harder because RB $$ has forced them to push these limits. Maybe they pushed harder because they knew they were pushing the furthest levels of this human experience we are all on, and they pushed a little too far.

[ianyapxw 0]

We're largely on the same page. I'm also not talking specifically about any of these guys, as I don't know them myself.

Cheers

[Di0 1]

stemartin72

Read this: 'The fatality rate for skydiving is around 1 death per 100,000 jumps' 'For BASE jumping it is closer to a roughly estimated 1 death per 500-1000 jumps so is, roughly, more than a hundred times more fatally prone to risk than skydiving.'. Yes. There is definitely a need for regulation.

Now, about how a sponsor like RB encourages some people to take unnecessary risks:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/red-bull-stunt-marketing-extreme-sports-death-464619
And Victor Kovats was probably #8.

Those stunts are planned between the sponsor and the stuntman, who ultimately has the last word.
I mean, look at how RB sponsored Baumgartner and their project, it didn't seem to me the work of a bunch of cowboys and kids with gopros: there was some serious work and they made everything they could to make it safe.
Yesterday, in Dubai, Icarus canopy sponsored Ernesto Garcia in a project to land a 35sqft canopy setting the new world record.
EpicTV sponsors Base Jumpers and WS Proxy Flier to get new videos and documentaries on human flight.

All of these are extremely risky projects, all of these can end up with deaths, and did at some point before. And they will again.
But all of these involve very experienced jumpers, among the most experienced in the world, perfectly aware of the risks, they accept it, they write a will and they know that their next jump has a good chance of being their last.
They don't recruit kids from high school with the promise of sex, money, drugs and rock and roll to use them, unbeknownst of the risk, to shoot an awesome video (or an awesome death) because nobody aware of the risks in their right sets of minds would accept the gig.
That's not how it works.


All the professional WS fliers and pro base jumpers that died recently accepted the risks, they did it with their own free will, and the sponsors only gave them money and support to do something they would have done anyway, one way or the other.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[Doug_Davis 0]

DSE

I pray your understanding and acceptance of GPS in goggles isn't based on "Jeb's used it."

There is a reason these goggles aren't commonly used in BASE or skydiving. A bit more research might help you understand why. Please don't decide you won't jump them because "DSE said you shouldn't" any more than you should use them because "Jeb did."

We'll never know what Dan, Ludo, or Brian were thinking when they made this last flight. We can surmise all day long about winds, wrong line, sponsors, whatever, and still not know the truth.
The one truth that everyone who knew Brian, Ludo, or Dan can put as gospel; this was their passion, their love, their chase. They all knew the risks, I'd had several conversations with Brian on this topic. They didn't push closer because the camera was there. They'd have done this with or without cameras, with or without Epic TV, with or without fame. True passion works like that.

Douglas, I didnt say if I would or wouldnt use them. He just asked if there was such a system and I was confirming there is. Thats all.

Here is what he used:
http://youtu.be/IRBXF_Unwm0

Here is another system that was trying to come on to the market. Dont know if they did.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/18/recon-instruments-offering-flight-hud-goggles/

Having said that I have used a helmet mounted HUD system before. The army has been testing them for years. Never actually deployed with one though.
http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=42267
Some of the equipment the engineers came up with did get field deployed though, such as the forearm mounted communication keyboards and some other fun bits.

[cloud9 0]

Sounds to me like you have a chicken or the egg scenario going. However do you really think the sponsors push the athletes to extreme limits? I think reality is the extreme athletes push the limits and those are the ones the sponsors bring on. Death is not good for business, it's not what sponsors want. They want people that can do extraordinary things and live to tell about it.

[Skylark 0]

Can someone tell me what line this was? Someone earlier mentioned it can be seen in Dreamlines 4.

I'd like to ideally get some information that I can use to learn from, rather than get involved in arguments about skill level and statistics etc.

ie what line, exactly what happened and where exactly in Dreamlines 4 it is.

Anyone?

"Into the dangerous world I leapt..." William Blake, Songs of Experience

[michalm21 0]

Fuck Yeah Line

[GoneCodFishing 23]

Skylark

I'd like to ideally get some information that I can use to learn from, rather than get involved in arguments about skill level and statistics etc.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4616947;page=4;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;#4618626

[ianyapxw 0]

It's at 3:14 in the Drealines IV full video (16 minute one). They apparently went right instead of left as they were too low. I'm not 100% sure about the left/right thing though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GASFa7rkLtM&t=3m14s

[zoobrothertom 5]

If I interpreted it right, in Dreamlines at 3:14 a group enters the line from above diving to the left.

The 3 jumpers that perished would have been in the pastures you see below unable to enter because they were too low.

____________________________________
I'm back in the USA!!

[ianyapxw 0]

That is my interpretation as well, however, I'm a effectively a whuffo.

I think you mentioned somewhere else that you BASE jump, no?