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swotcox

Ground wind changed when landing.

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It depends on: (a) the rules of your DZ; (b) how big your landing area is; and (c) where you are in the pattern.

Some things to think about (besides the rules of your DZ) are: (1) do I have the altitude to change the direction of my landing? (2) will changing the direction I land have any effect on jumpers in the air with me (e.g., will I suddenly be landing towards them, as they are landing towards me? Do I have a chance of colliding with them?).

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Yes I have enough altitude and will not effect any other jumpers whether I change my direction of final turn or not.
And if some jumpers ahead of me change the pattern and some don’t, should I keep go pattern as planned landing downwind or change the direction for a softer landing?

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>And if some jumpers ahead of me change the pattern and some don’t, should I keep go
>pattern as planned landing downwind or change the direction for a softer landing?

Depends on the DZ. In some you land in the planned direction no matter what, and no matter what direction other people land in. In others, once someone lands the opposite direction the landing area is closed and you have to land somewhere else. In others, the landing direction can switch halfway through the load landing. (not a good idea IMO)

You always have the option of landing out. Generally if you land out you can pick your own direction.

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Most of the DZ's I've jumped at - when encountering a situation like this - required jumpers to continue with the pre-planned pattern before the jump..."plan the jump and jump the plan" as they say.

Ask your local S&TA or DZO regarding your DZ's rules on this.

You should also ask your local S&TA about purposefully landing downwind when he or she believes your skills sufficient for an attempt. When ready, your S&TA should be able to coordinate a downwind landing for you on a load, likely on a solo hop & pop to prevent a collision.

If you find yourself in a situation where the wind does change and at one of the many DZs that require adherence to the pre-jump pattern, you'll have to land downwind. Landing downwind poses additional hazards and requires some practice to execute safely, but is a skill that can literally save your back-side.

-JD-

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swotcox

Yes I have enough altitude and will not effect any other jumpers whether I change my direction of final turn or not.



The problem with that maybe that you are not always aware of effecting other jumpers, you may have just not seen them or missjudged the situation. If it is serious you are depending on the other guy beeing aware.

swotcox


And if some jumpers ahead of me change the pattern and some don’t, should I keep go pattern as planned landing downwind or change the direction for a softer landing?



Depends, but for me to i don't have an issue with downwind landings and nobody should if they are provicient on their canopy.
If it does not cost anything you are the product.

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Yes I have enough altitude and will not effect any other jumpers whether I change my direction of final turn or not.
And if some jumpers ahead of me change the pattern and some don’t, should I keep go pattern as planned landing downwind or change the direction for a softer landing?


If you are 100% sure that you have enough altitude to change your pattern, and 150% sure that there is no one landing with or after you, and the DZ rules don't prohibit it, then I would change the pattern and land into the wind.

However, if there is even a chance that there is a canopy that you do not see above or behind you, who is counting on you to land predictably, then I would not change.

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You always have the option of landing out. Generally if you land out you can pick your own direction.


That depends a lot on the dropzone too. Personally, I have been to only one dropzone--maybe two (Skydive Arizona, Out of the Bule Skydiving) where that was an always available easy option (except for those thorny bushes in Arizona!)
On all the other DZs I've been at, landing out would involve landing on private property or other options, that are an easy choice when you are in an actual emergency, but a very bad choice when you just want to avoid landing downwind (because the DZ owner, or farmer McNasty, will will be on your case and may even ask you not to jump at their DZ anymore)

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This is really a question for your S&T A. The answer depends on a lot of variables, and the 'right' answer at one DZ may be the absolute wrong one at a different DZ.

Keep in mind that the person most likely to be a problem if you alter your pattern unpredictably is going to be above and behind you. You will not be able to see them (yes, the lower jumper has the right of way, but it's not a right to do stupid things).

For example, at my current DZ, the landing area is pretty tight. Landing direction is determined before boarding and is expected to be adhered to. In rare, extreme circumstances, there might be a radio call up from the ground that the winds have changed dramatically and the landing direction needs to be changed. That info would be loudly and repeatedly communicated throughout the plane before door opening.
If not, downwind or cross wind landings are something that the jumpers are expected to know how to do.

At other DZs I have jumped at, the landing area is huge and wide open, with lots of alternates & outs. If you are landing close to the hangar, you are expected to follow the predetermined landing direction. If you wish to land in a different direction, you must land away from the hangar, and not interfere with the pattern of other jumpers. Even so, you may well end up in a discussion with the air boss or one of his minions and you better have a good reason for doing what you did.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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wolfriverjoe


Keep in mind that the person most likely to be a problem if you alter your pattern unpredictably is going to be above and behind you. You will not be able to see them (yes, the lower jumper has the right of way, but it's not a right to do stupid things).



Had to explain that to a guy my last trip to the DZ when my buddy was trying to be polite yet very firm about his displeasure with the guy making a 90deg turn in front of him while on final. He commented that he thought the lower jumper has the right of way. SMH. "I thought I had the Right of Way" makes a great epitaph.

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Yeah, landing on private property brings with it the risk of angering the property owner and might also carry with it some legal ramifications as well if that same property owner is a stickler for trespassing. Many property owners near DZs are amicable and don't mind an occasional skydiver making a touchdown on their lawn/fields. But there are nuts out there!

Get with your S&TA/instructor and ask them where the preferred off-DZ landing sites are. There should also be a map on the DZ somewhere that illustrates where the safest "outs" are located.

One last thing...carrying a cell phone on you while you jump is a good idea. If you land off and are without comm's, it's going to be a long haul back to the DZ with all of your gear.

-JD-

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skyfox2007



Get with your S&TA/instructor and ask them where the preferred off-DZ landing sites are.


-JD-




I'm not convinced by this advice.

A Dropzone will point out hazardous landing areas - lakes, shooting ranges, freeways etc, and tell you 'DON'T LAND THERE' but shouldn't ever bring the disposition of the land owner into the discussion unless they pose a direct hazard themselves. Once you have that information picking where you're going to land is up to you based on exactly where you are in the sky.

Imagine these situations:

By landing out you're already putting yourself in a more dangerous situation than normal.

If at the back of your mind you've got a little voice saying 'I CAN land in this field but the owner is going to be cross... so I'll just make it over that barn to the one where the owner is a friend of the DZ.' then you're much more likely to make a bad decision.

You have a mal and get your reserve out low. If a low experience jumper has been told that there are preferred outs then they may make a low turn or fly over hazards just to try and reach one of those.


Once you decide that you're landing out your single priority is landing safely. Anything that happens after that you can deal with.

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I'm not convinced by this advice.

A Dropzone will point out hazardous landing areas - lakes, shooting ranges, freeways etc, and tell you 'DON'T LAND THERE' but shouldn't ever bring the disposition of the land owner into the discussion unless they pose a direct hazard themselves. Once you have that information picking where you're going to land is up to you based on exactly where you are in the sky.



Often DZO's will also point out where they don't want you to land for business/legal/financial reasons i.e. landowner X will confiscate your gear, landowner Y will have you arrested for trespassing, landowner Z will have the DZ shut down if one more person lands there. That's good information to know.

Of course, every jumper still has to make good decisions on their own. If the choice is the alligator farm or the guy who will have you arrested, better to land safely and deal with getting bail than ending up lunch. And if the choice is the alligator farm, the angry farmer or the golf course where they don't mind you landing - that is VERY good information to have.

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billvon

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I'm not convinced by this advice.

A Dropzone will point out hazardous landing areas - lakes, shooting ranges, freeways etc, and tell you 'DON'T LAND THERE' but shouldn't ever bring the disposition of the land owner into the discussion unless they pose a direct hazard themselves. Once you have that information picking where you're going to land is up to you based on exactly where you are in the sky.



Often DZO's will also point out where they don't want you to land for business/legal/financial reasons i.e. landowner X will confiscate your gear, landowner Y will have you arrested for trespassing, landowner Z will have the DZ shut down if one more person lands there. That's good information to know.

Of course, every jumper still has to make good decisions on their own. If the choice is the alligator farm or the guy who will have you arrested, better to land safely and deal with getting bail than ending up lunch. And if the choice is the alligator farm, the angry farmer or the golf course where they don't mind you landing - that is VERY good information to have.



^This. SDC gives a pretty good brief on this. They have a bit of a situation, where the outs to the east are fairly far away (river and woods between DZ and the outs). One of the most attractive potential outs (closest and wide open grass fields) is a horse farm.
Because of the potential for scaring the horses into hurting themselves, which has happened, and the extremely high value of the horses, the DZ doesn't want people to land there.
They also understand that there may be times where a jumper has no other choice. So they explain very clearly that the horse farm is an out of last resort. Do whatever is practical to not land there. If you have to land there, after landing, gather up your canopy and sit still. Call in and let them know where you are. They will go to the owners, and you will be retrieved. If you land there and decide to walk out on your own, you are subject to a fine of several hundred dollars. You agree to this when you sign the waiver.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Yes I agree with you. But what if in an extreme situation?
Like..uh.. the downwind is too strong and if you adhere to the pre-planned pattern you know it's highly possible end up with a tree landing?
Some jumpers who landed ahead of you changed their final turns. Also, you have a reletive open area and you won't collision with anyone if you changed your pattern. Maybe someone's upon you but that's fine 'cause you got a bigger problem you're hitting the tree:)

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billvon

... i.e. landowner X will confiscate your gear, landowner Y will have you arrested for trespassing...




A land owner attempting to confiscate my personal property, or having me arrested for trespassing in that situation would result in a very interesting interaction.

If I land off, I am very apologetic and diplomatic. I support a DZ fine system where off landings result in a $5-$10 drop in the fine jar that gets spent on the neighbors at Christmas in some fashion to keep up relations.

But if they want to be an ass, I will rise to the challenge.

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Plan the jump, jump the Plan....
From ur way to altitude down to landing.

Best way to prevent accidents.
Landing directions should be set by the dz staff or at least by anyone on the ground... Not while under canopy.

The german Dfv (Uspa counterpart) had written down some landing priorities in their SIM:

1. Canopy parallel to the ground
2. Land in obstaclefree area
3. Land in at lrast half brakes
4. Land upwind

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>But if they want to be an ass, I will rise to the challenge.

And probably end up in jail on a variety of charges. Or you could end up dead; if you trespass then end up attacking the landowner, he (or his family) would be in the right to defend themselves.

A more measured approach would probably be wiser.

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GoGoGadget

***... i.e. landowner X will confiscate your gear, landowner Y will have you arrested for trespassing...




A land owner attempting to confiscate my personal property, or having me arrested for trespassing in that situation would result in a very interesting interaction.

If I land off, I am very apologetic and diplomatic. I support a DZ fine system where off landings result in a $5-$10 drop in the fine jar that gets spent on the neighbors at Christmas in some fashion to keep up relations.

But if they want to be an ass, I will rise to the challenge.


We really need a rolling eyes emoticon.

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billvon

>But if they want to be an ass, I will rise to the challenge.

And probably end up in jail on a variety of charges. Or you could end up dead; if you trespass then end up attacking the landowner, he (or his family) would be in the right to defend themselves.

A more measured approach would probably be wiser.



Find statutory or case law that allows a land owner to confiscate personal property of an individual, even one "trespassing". I also suspect you are mostly unaware of how the majority of trespassing laws are written or enforced.

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Find statutory or case law that allows a land owner to confiscate personal property of an individual, even one "trespassing". I also suspect you are mostly unaware of how the majority of trespassing laws are written or enforced.


Again, attacking a homeowner after you've landed on his property is a good way to end up in jail, or dead. No matter what you think the law is. Best to do as he says, then deal with it in the courts later.

Most property owners I've dealt with have been pretty understanding overall. I can see that with jumpers like yourself, though, they might start treating off landings less like an accident and more like a case of trespassing.

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billvon


Again, attacking a homeowner after you've landed on his property is a good way to end up in jail, or dead. No matter what you think the law is. Best to do as he says, then deal with it in the courts later.

Most property owners I've dealt with have been pretty understanding overall. I can see that with jumpers like yourself, though, they might start treating off landings less like an accident and more like a case of trespassing.



So if you land off and the property owner wants to confiscate your $8k rig, you will hand it over and hope to get it back in a few months via the court system?

You are acting like I am landing off and randomly attacking sweet innocent land owners. I merely said if the land owners acts the ass, I can too. I also said I support DZs doing something for the landowners to maintain good relations. Your reading comprehension is very selective.

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>I merely said if the land owners acts the ass, I can too.

Yes, you said that. And that would be a mistake on your part. Because when you are trespassing, you are already relying on his understanding. Deciding to "be an ass" would lead to a bad outcome for both you and the DZ. And even if you decide "hey, it's my life I can do whatever I want" - that's still going to tend to screw the other skydivers who might someday have to use that field as well.

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billvon

>I merely said if the land owners acts the ass, I can too.

Yes, you said that. And that would be a mistake on your part. Because when you are trespassing, you are already relying on his understanding. Deciding to "be an ass" would lead to a bad outcome for both you and the DZ. And even if you decide "hey, it's my life I can do whatever I want" - that's still going to tend to screw the other skydivers who might someday have to use that field as well.



Ok. Then allow your gear to be stolen by an irate land owner who feels entitled to your property for the inconvenience of having a strangers feet on his land. You do you buddy.

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