0
nanni

Another newbie with a lot of questions

Recommended Posts

Hi all! Another newbie from Italy (so sorry for my bad english).

I was at a DZ two months ago, until that day I just knew NOTHING about skydiving: never saw a video, never been interested in it, never knew the existence of tandem jumps. I was there (for other reasons), I saw jumpers landing with a big beautiful smile in their face, so I think: let's try! I jumped tandem and it was the best thing I ever did in my entire life (35 y/o). Since then I am literally obsessed: I go to sleep thinking of skydiving and I wake up thinking of skydiving. Of course I want to do AFF, but I am like "split" in two parts: a part of me thinking "go on, don't let this become a regret" and the other part of me thinking "are you really sure that you can accept the risks?"

I am watching all the watchable and reading all the readable and I know that's a mistake. The only thing I should do is to go to the DZ and talk with instructors and maybe I'll do, but I'd like to hear opinions/experiences about this 3 questions:

1) Injuries. It seems that almost everybody have a broken bone or worst. But it seems that almost all broken bones depends by swooping too hard, downsizing when it's not the time and other competitive-related things. My question is: injuries CAN happen like it can happen everyday just staying at home, or sooner or later it WILL happen despite of how "conservative" and careful you are?

2) "You can do all the right things and still die" - ok; but how much times that happened? And: are you really sure that it's a correct way to think? I don't want to think that "I can do all the things right and still die", I want to think that "I am smart, I am well trained, I can do EPs and I will do anything it's possible to bring myself to the ground". Am I wrong?

3) How do you manage in your mind the fact that you are doing something risky just for your fun? How is it different for you from, for example, using drugs, or driving fast?

Thank you in advance. I know that there aren't right answers to this questions, I just want to hear from you.
Thanks thanks thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1- Yes there are injuries but there are also many more safe landings. It's kind of like airplane crashes, the 1 crash is on the news but the 100s of successful landings that same day are not reported. Your sample size might be skewing your viewpoint. Landing injuries can happen but the chances if the will happen can be greatly reduced or eliminated through using proper gear and training.

2- Unfortunately this is true. However using proper and in good condition/ well maintained gear greatly reduces the risk of those types of incidents. What you can't control is someone taking you out under canopy. DZs work to separate swoopers from regular traffic this still happens occasionally. Also while AADs help in worst case events from a collision in freefall to get a reserve open if you're unconscious and can't fly you could still hit obstacles. Jumping within your skill level and keeping groups small until you can safely fly on bigger stuff helps reduce this risk.

3- I manage the risk by accepting it and doing everything I can to not get complacent in my safety training. Using drugs or driving fast vastly pales in comparison to the joy of learning to fly, the memories made and the unique experiences I have had with some very good friends so far in my jumping career. That to me makes all the risk worth it.
diamonds are a dawgs best friend

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 - Injuries can happen to anyone at any time. However, I know a lot of jumpers who have jumped for a long time with no (or minimal) injuries.

I've sprained ankles and wrists (and am currently dealing with a finger) from bumpy landings. That's the worst I've experienced.

2 - Yes. You can 'do all the right things and still die." There is stuff that is simply out of our control. Canopy collisions are a good example of this.
However, it doesn't happen all that often.
Most injuries & deaths are due to 'operator error.' Bad decisions, whether on the ground (canopy choice is a good example) or in the air.
By using an AAD & RSL, jumping at a conservative wingloading and not swooping, you remove yourself from about 3/4 of the fatalities.

3 - Life is risk. Nobody likes to think that driving off in their car may well be the last time they see their loved ones, but about 30,000 people per year die in car accidents in the US. Tall buildings catch on fire. Cars lose control and take out pedestrians on the sidewalk.
You cannot remove all the risk from life. Even if you wrapped yourself in bubble wrap and hid in your basement, a meteor could still come through your roof and kill you. And what kind of life would that be?

Lots of people do lots of risky things. Ski, scuba, climb mountains, ride bicycles and motorcycles. For them the joy is worth the risk.
Skydiving is the same for me. There is risk to it. But it's worth it to me. At least it is now. I usually re-evaluate my choice every spring, after the winter layoff. So far, I've felt it's worth it. We shall see what next year brings.

Welcome. We get it. You found something that fills a hole in you that you didn't even know was there. And now you realize how empty that hole is and need to fill it.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I asked myself similar questions when I started. I am a very calm logical person, so I knew the statistics on doing a single tandem were negligible. But when I decided to pursue AFF I did some more research. Based on fatality statistics in the US, the risk per year in the sport (based on averaging across USPA membership numbers) was larger than a tandem but still small. But when I multiplied that number by an estimated 30 years in the sport, the probability of fatality was 2%. That gave me pause, and I almost decided that risk was not worth it.

In the end, I let myself go through AFF so I could get my license and then I would reevaluate how many years I wanted to keep jumping. While I was a student, I kept researching. I read practically all the published incident reports looking for common causes (this was before I realized that the Parachutist magazine already did a similar analysis every April). What I saw was many common risk factors that were under my control. I'm not interested in high performance landings, swooping, wingsuits, downsizing, big ways; I jump with an AAD/RSL, with a rig that was fit to my body, etc. The point is, every jumpers risk is largely under their control. Just like you can reduce your risk of driving by not using your phone, not drinking, driving the speed limit, etc, you can reduce your skydiving risks by making wise choices and only pursuing advanced disciplines with proper training and experience. I'm confident my risk of fatality if I stay in the sport for 30 years is substantially less than 2%. Is it zero? Of course not, but it is negligible enough that I don't worry about leaving my kids without a father or my wife without a husband, no more than I do when I get on the road. You need to decide for yourself whether the risk is worth the reward, but if I had to guess I'd say you'll be joining the ranks of fun jumpers soon. :)
As for injuries, the worst I've had is a few skinned shins when I flared too late and I wasnt wearing a jumpsuit, or some bruises under my arms from a few hard openings. Not what I would consider injuries, more like annoyances. I've sprained my ankle numerous times just running, for what it's worth (and yet I enjoy running enough that I keep doing it).

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
thank you all for the answers.

I know that "fatality risk" is everywhere around us, life is risky. Everybody will die, can't know when/where/why. Life is now and I am very sure that I'd prefer to die tomorrow with great memories than at 90years old with great regrets. No doubt.

I'm now fighting with my perception... especially about injuries.

I hate physical pain, I never broke a bone in my life (lucky me..!) and I think I'm more careful than most of people (for example... when I see passenger in a car with the feet on dash I think "if the driver claps on the brake he/she'll get hurt" - and of course I never put my feet on dash..!) I know for sure that it is just an illusion of control, the risk will never be neither close to zero (and for sure it will be always more than 2%) but it is enough for me and for most of us to feel safe.

Well, I just need to obtain the same perception with parachutism. That's a little bit hard because, as I wrote, reading jumpers Facebook profiles I found almost ever an x-ray shot showing some screws (to be honest, there is always a phrase like "oh no, I can't jump for months!" and never "I'm really in pain, fuck skydiving, I never do it again" - that means that is always worth)

I know that if I ask to my friends I will discover that a lot of them have had accidents, injuries, deaseases, bad times.

It's just a mental concern.

Your answers are very helpful for this. Thank you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have always been a bit of a risk taker, but avoid stupid risks. What is stupid for one person may make perfect sense to someone else. But risks are everywhere in life.

Many type of people skydive. Some see skydiving as rewarding even if it is not thrilling. Others want skydiving to be thrilling. If a person wants skydiving to be thrilling, they will often stay in a zone of higher risk. In other words, they make the risk higher at the same time they make the dive more challenging.

If one person says, "I want to have fun even if I break my ankle" and another person says, "I want to have fun but not if it increases my chance of an injury", then those two people might approach the sport in a completely different fashion and mindset. Some are better than others. Some are safer than others. Some are luckier than others. That is just the way it is.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi there

I´m very new in the sports and I have a lot of this thoughts. I can only answer to your questions 3, how I manage it :

There are lots of older (sometimes way over 60) people on my DZ…..that’s a good fact for me. They are happy and they are still jumping.
The owner of the DZ has a young daughter, he loves her very much….how can he teach her how to jump when he would know, that it is waaaay to dangeours.
I keep in mind, that the risks are quite low, when you are jumping «conservative». Probably lower than riding a bike….isn’t that what the statistics are saying? For me, this statistics are helpful for my inner peace….

But the best thing for me to manage this thoughts is ignoring them. My feelings after a jumpday are just awesome. I drive home from the DZ with a big smile and as you said….I can’t stop thinking about it and the idea of not going back because of the risks is too painful for me :P

And when I read your post....you will do your AFF, I guess your fear of regretting something is bigger than your fear of injuries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
nanni



1) Injuries. It seems that almost everybody have a broken bone or worst. But it seems that almost all broken bones depends by swooping too hard, downsizing when it's not the time and other competitive-related things. My question is: injuries CAN happen like it can happen everyday just staying at home, or sooner or later it WILL happen despite of how "conservative" and careful you are?



I have seen about 15 people leave in an ambulance in the last year, all related to hard landings. Admittedly not all actually needed one, someone probably just called to be safe. Anyway, only 3 or 4 of those were from HP landings. Two of them were tandems. Several were people doing low turns to face into the wind or try to show off for a demo. A few were people who were jumping in conditions that were too windy for their experience level.

nanni


2) "You can do all the right things and still die" - ok; but how much times that happened? And: are you really sure that it's a correct way to think? I don't want to think that "I can do all the things right and still die", I want to think that "I am smart, I am well trained, I can do EPs and I will do anything it's possible to bring myself to the ground". Am I wrong?



Worldwide maybe 50 - 60 people are killed per year skydiving. This website has been tracking fatalities since 2004 worldwide and since then there have been 800 reported fatalities. The website does not track every fatality. There are some that have occurred that are not listed on here. Last year in the USA, the #1 cause of fatalities was improper EP procedures.

If you want to look at the general risk of skydiving compared to other activities, this tells some info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort

One interesting note is comparing skydiving to driving a car. One jumps carries approximately the same risk as driving 1840 miles. So no, driving to the dropzone is not more likely to get you killed than jumping at it--a common BS 'statistic' people throw out there to try to minimize the risk in skydiving.

If you decide to take up skydiving and end up doing 1000 jumps over the course of your life, you have about a 1 in 125 chance of being killed from it. If you decide to work in skydiving and do 10,000 jumps, you have about a 1 in 12 chance of being killed from it. Of course this can go up or down dramatically depending on what you do in skydiving (e.g. swooping vs four way).
nanni


3) How do you manage in your mind the fact that you are doing something risky just for your fun? How is it different for you from, for example, using drugs, or driving fast?


I supposed it's not in many ways, except I probably wont go to jail for skydiving.

jungle

Probably lower than riding a bike….isn’t that what the statistics are saying?



No. One jump is equivalent in risk to riding a bike 80 - 160 miles. Look at the website I posted above. I hear it all the time "skydiving is safer than driving a car or riding a bike'. "You're more like to die getting hit by a car walking down the sidewalk."

No, no you are not. Those claims are entirely false. Skydiving is far more risky than any of those activities. If we're talking about a single tandem jump, then maybe. But we are not, we're talking about continued jumping over a long period of time. Statistics and be written to prove a point. I can use math to make skydiving sound really safe or really dangerous.

For example, consider the following statements, both of which are true to an extent.

- You are about 3x more likely to die from any random cause of death (e.g. cancer, accident, heart attack, ect) on the day that you make your first jump than you are from the jump itself.

- If you make eight jumps in a day, as many licensed jumpers do, you're more than 60 times more likely to die that day from skydiving than you are from all other forms of accidental death (excluding suicide) combined for the remainder of that day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The comment about driving to the dropzone is more dangerous than making a jump is not as you say "a common BS tactic people through out". You ARE in more danger on the road way of being hurt or killed than to make ONE tandem jump. One of the reasons is people are VERY complacent while driving and doing crap like,texting,putting on make up,shaving,reading notes out of a three ring binder, all things I have seen myself. Not to mention people driving while under the influence. I could go on stating many references and personal experiences that prove your statement wrong, but see no need. I dont know the number of fatalities around the world, but the average number of fatalities in the US in the past 8-10 years was 21 a year, compared to approximately 4 million skydives made in the US that same year including licensed skydivers,aff students, and tandems. So do the math, thats, not even 1 percent. It actually came out as .0000025 . At least half of those fatalities were landing issues whether it was just a mistake on a inadvertent low turn or a mistake in an intentional HP landing.
IMHO many of your post you give info. and speak as if you are very experienced. Looking at your jump numbers and when you registered on this web site and your time in the sport, I would humbly suggest to gain more experience before dispensing some of the info you do in your responses. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tikl68

The comment about driving to the dropzone is more dangerous than making a jump is not as you say "a common BS tactic people through out". You ARE in more danger on the road way of being hurt or killed than to make ONE tandem jump. One of the reasons is people are VERY complacent while driving and doing crap like,texting,putting on make up,shaving,reading notes out of a three ring binder, all things I have seen myself. Not to mention people driving while under the influence. I could go on stating many references and personal experiences that prove your statement wrong, but see no need. I dont know the number of fatalities around the world, but the average number of fatalities in the US in the past 8-10 years was 21 a year, compared to approximately 4 million skydives made in the US that same year including licensed skydivers,aff students, and tandems. So do the math, thats, not even 1 percent. It actually came out as .0000025 . At least half of those fatalities were landing issues whether it was just a mistake on a inadvertent low turn or a mistake in an intentional HP landing.
IMHO many of your post you give info. and speak as if you are very experienced. Looking at your jump numbers and when you registered on this web site and your time in the sport, I would humbly suggest to gain more experience before dispensing some of the info you do in your responses. ;)



If you read the reference you would see that one skydive caries the same approximate risk as driving 1840 miles. If we're including personal experiences, hows this. I have been driving for 30 years and never been injured driving. I havent even been in a car accident. However, in the first six months of jumping I got injured twice on landings...


Lets look at some basic Google numbers quickly.

In 2016 approximately 222 million people drove a vehicle in the USA. The average yearly mileage was around 13,474 miles yer pear. In 2016, 37,461 people died in car accidents which means one death per 79,849,123 miles driven per year.

In 2014, the USPA estimated 3,200,000 jumps and 24 deaths which means one death per 133,333 jumps. Thus, the chances of you dying in a single jump is 1 in 133,333. If you drove 80 miles round trip to the DZ, the chance of you dying on that trip would be about 1 in 998,114, or roughly about 1/8th the chance of you dying in a skydive.

Of course a tandem jump is safer, but I am not aware of any statistics showing only tandem jump numbers so we have to work with what we got.

References:

https://www.statista.com/topics/1197/car-drivers/

https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/01/25/the-average-american-drives-this-much-each-year-ho.aspx

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year


Go ahead and post up all these references you have that prove me wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
thank you guys.

please, don't fight with death statistics, I read a very interesting article written by an italian researcher (if you can/want read it in italian I can link it here) and the ultimate sentence is: is not possible to compare skydiving with driving cars. So I will not think about this no more.

Italy, 2017: 3945 people died suicide = 6,5 people every 100.000 Should I compare suicide with driving car or hours spent in situations that can end with a suicide with miles drove?
Of course not.

As I said, I know that life is risky by itself, skydiving IS adding risks but also adding rewards, joy, and so on. I don't know when I will die and I can't do nothing to know how much time I have to live, so I prefer 1 minute of pure joy and good feelings that 1 year of "normal" life without.

I don't know why, but I can't think the same things about injuries, and that's the matter that I need to work on. It's possible to not get hurt skydiving (being careful, checking gear, etc etc etc) or it's just "hope to not" and "have luck"? An injury can happen like can happen falling down stairs or there are more chances? This is my big question mark.

thank you again!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
nanni



It's possible to not get hurt skydiving (being careful, checking gear, etc etc etc) or it's just "hope to not" and "have luck"? An injury can happen like can happen falling down stairs or there are more chances? This is my big question mark.

thank you again!

A bit pf both. I know someone with several thousand jumps who has never been injured. I sprained my ankle on my very first jump and coudlent jump again for three weeks. It's partly based on luck, skill and overall attitude toward safety. Chances are if you get hurt, it's going to be on landing. So jumping a light wingload and standing down when it is windy would go a long way toward not getting hurt. But eventually you will get board and start taking more risks. Not many people out there with 1000+ jumps still on a 1 to 1 wingload who stands down once the winds hit 15 knots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Comparing miles driven to jumps made to quantify/compare risk is kinda like adding apples and oranges. I have been driving for more than 30 years, and was a delivery driver for more than 10 of those years, so my millage is higher than the average driver, and I have not been injured, but was in two accidents where I was hit by a drunk driver two different times. I have been skydiving for 30 years total with a 16 year break after my first 2 jumps in 1986, and have gotten one bloody nose from contact on a 6 way chunk exit. I know more people injured or killed on the highways than in skydiving. So those are my experiences. One of the other aspects is risk management, and on the highway with millions of other drivers as potential risks to manage, and you are exposed to that risk for a longer period of time, it is more LIKELY you will be injured or killed on the highways, than to make ONE skydive. I think the comment has been incorrectly stated and incorrectly quoted which has led to this being blown out of proportion. The way it should be worded is "you are in more danger of being injured or killed on the road ways, than if you were to make one skydive". In the last month while on the way to work,listening to the traffic report on the radio, there were 3 fatalities on different days, while people were just going to work thinking about the day ahead of them at work, and taking for granted the risk of JUST DRIVING TO WORK. If you got injured twice in a short period of time landing your canopy skydiving might not be the sport for you, but sounds like with your driving experience, NASCAR might be more up your alley.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tikl68

Comparing miles driven to jumps made to quantify/compare risk is kinda like adding apples and oranges. I have been driving for more than 30 years, and was a delivery driver for more than 10 of those years, so my millage is higher than the average driver, and I have not been injured, but was in two accidents where I was hit by a drunk driver two different times. I have been skydiving for 30 years total with a 16 year break after my first 2 jumps in 1986, and have gotten one bloody nose from contact on a 6 way chunk exit. I know more people injured or killed on the highways than in skydiving. So those are my experiences. One of the other aspects is risk management, and on the highway with millions of other drivers as potential risks to manage, and you are exposed to that risk for a longer period of time, it is more LIKELY you will be injured or killed on the highways, than to make ONE skydive. I think the comment has been incorrectly stated and incorrectly quoted which has led to this being blown out of proportion. The way it should be worded is "you are in more danger of being injured or killed on the road ways, than if you were to make one skydive". In the last month while on the way to work,listening to the traffic report on the radio, there were 3 fatalities on different days, while people were just going to work thinking about the day ahead of them at work, and taking for granted the risk of JUST DRIVING TO WORK. If you got injured twice in a short period of time landing your canopy skydiving might not be the sport for you, but sounds like with your driving experience, NASCAR might be more up your alley.



No specific reply but just a personal note. My normal skydive day is to leave the house at 3:30AM, drive 4 hours, do 4-6 wingsuit jumps, and drive 4 hours home, that same day. While I do try to focus on being safe, I am pretty relaxed on my jumps. I can be focused and relaxed. But staying focused on the drive, at high alert for 4 hours at a time is actually more of a challenge than jumping. I have learned that I need to stop at 6 jumps if I am driving those 8 hours that day, because the difference is being so tired that I can't stay focused on my driving. Hitting a deer are one of the my biggest risks/fears for me. (not flying deer)
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0