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Johnkelley

At what point in your flare do you deploy? Also, in regards to your arms, how do you deploy?

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Noob questions, just a heads up.

1. I've been wingsuiting for the past couple years (not as frequently as I would like to), and have been experimenting with deployments to get the best results. I've been watching instructional videos, as well as just general wingsuit videos, and noticed there are two points at where most people deploy. First, and what I've seen most people do, people flare and once they get to the apex of their flare, they deploy. Second, and how most videos say to do it, you should flare, get to the top of your flare, keep flying for a second or two to get forward momentum back and air back over the wing, and then deploy. When do you deploy, and what is your reasoning for doing so?

2. When deploying, most instruction says to stay symmetrical, but I've seen different variations from different (some highly experienced) people. 1. People stay in full flight, and only with their right hand reach back, deploy, and return back to full flight. Meaning their left arm remains in flight position the entire time.* 2. People collapse both wings to deploy, and stay like that until under canopy. 3. People collapse both wings, deploy, and move their arms to their front to prepare to grab their risers. How do you deploy, and what's your reasoning for doing so compared to other methods?

*Video demonstrates what I'm talking about: https://squirrel.ws/parachutes/skydiving/epicene-pro
Watching the "Epicine Pro Video", at the 29 second marker, you can see 5 people deploy. The last person to delpoy (helicopter print) reaches back with one arm to deploy.

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http://arcusflight.ws/wingsuit-coaching/

Do yourself a big favor and take a vacation!

Wingsuiters quickly realize that line twists are the bane in our game. Everything that we do is to mitigate this issue. The canopy makers are taking notes and getting in on it. Buy my "WS specific" latest and greatest thing. And while yes, these canopies do in fact have better, more forgiving opening characteristics the bottom line is, your form, your rig mods and your packing reflect A LOT on the outcome.

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Johnkelley

Noob questions, just a heads up.

1. I've been wingsuiting for the past couple years (not as frequently as I would like to), and have been experimenting with deployments to get the best results. I've been watching instructional videos, as well as just general wingsuit videos, and noticed there are two points at where most people deploy. First, and what I've seen most people do, people flare and once they get to the apex of their flare, they deploy. Second, and how most videos say to do it, you should flare, get to the top of your flare, keep flying for a second or two to get forward momentum back and air back over the wing, and then deploy. When do you deploy, and what is your reasoning for doing so?

2. When deploying, most instruction says to stay symmetrical, but I've seen different variations from different (some highly experienced) people. 1. People stay in full flight, and only with their right hand reach back, deploy, and return back to full flight. Meaning their left arm remains in flight position the entire time.* 2. People collapse both wings to deploy, and stay like that until under canopy. 3. People collapse both wings, deploy, and move their arms to their front to prepare to grab their risers. How do you deploy, and what's your reasoning for doing so compared to other methods?

*Video demonstrates what I'm talking about: https://squirrel.ws/parachutes/skydiving/epicene-pro
Watching the "Epicine Pro Video", at the 29 second marker, you can see 5 people deploy. The last person to delpoy (helicopter print) reaches back with one arm to deploy.



I do the last method you mention on both because it makes the most sense in a physics point of view.

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John, I hope these papers by Matt Gerdes will be useful to answer your questions:

http://www.skydivemag.com/article/thinking-about-wingsuit-openings

and

http://www.skydivemag.com/article/wingsuit-deployments?category=skydivemag%23latest&fwd=1

I use the second mode from this paper - without flare, only relax for a couple seconds, reduce speed and than deploy PC. My full speed at this point is about 140-150 kph.

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Instructional videos are a great start for the basics. This is one of those questions where you can ask 100 people and get 100 answers. Based on your wingsuit and equipment you need to find what works for you. Wingsuit corners, semi stowless, or a skysnatch can all help. Canopy choice also can help with 7 cell low aspect ratios helping with opening. You can fly a gentler 9 cell but its just another thing you need to account for an possibly alter your opening.

Assuming a bigger suit that flares, I like to dive hard, flare then return to flight after I hit my apex. Then I pitch with both hands to keep symmetry and then go back to flight for a brief second as it opens.

There are also subtleties in packing that different people do. Like in the epicene manual they have a good picture of the cocooning that exposes the nose more.

In the end, you just need to practice and find out what is best for you. Get some coaching and make deployments part of the day. If not try and get some on film because you might be surprised to see what you are doing as compared to what you think you are doing :)

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Regarding the arms, after you throw your PC do you bring the arms in to your center mass like you're doing a plank, or do you put the arms back out into flight to control your heading? I've seen people argue to bring the arms in to help reduce your burble, but the disadvantage is that it seems easier to start flying off heading since you have no arm wings to control your heading.

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LeeroyJenkins

I control my heading until I'm in the saddle then I start unzipping my arms.



Exactly! I often wonder why so many people try to make it harder than just that.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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dthames

***I control my heading until I'm in the saddle then I start unzipping my arms.



Exactly! I often wonder why so many people try to make it harder than just that.

Well I've seen several rather experienced WSers bring their arms in after deploying. Some of the people in the Squirrel instructional video on deployments do it if I recall right as well. The argument I got was that it reduces the size of your burble if you bring the arms in after pitching vs putting them back out into full flight.

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20kN

******I control my heading until I'm in the saddle then I start unzipping my arms.



Exactly! I often wonder why so many people try to make it harder than just that.

Well I've seen several rather experienced WSers bring their arms in after deploying. Some of the people in the Squirrel instructional video on deployments do it if I recall right as well. The argument I got was that it reduces the size of your burble if you bring the arms in after pitching vs putting them back out into full flight.

By the time you pitch and begin to move your arms forward your canopy should already be out of the bag.

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20kN

******I control my heading until I'm in the saddle then I start unzipping my arms.



Exactly! I often wonder why so many people try to make it harder than just that.

Well I've seen several rather experienced WSers bring their arms in after deploying. Some of the people in the Squirrel instructional video on deployments do it if I recall right as well. The argument I got was that it reduces the size of your burble if you bring the arms in after pitching vs putting them back out into full flight.

I deploy all sorts of ways depending on the situation. But I always keep straight until I am in the saddle. Even a poor form deployment can be helped a lot of then you get straight and stay straight.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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billvon

>Well I've seen several rather experienced WSers bring their arms in after deploying.

That used to be what was taught on the first-flight class. So not surprised people are doing that.



I've seen people try to collapse all the wings entirely and fall like a rock. That was taught to me prior to my FFC (which was then corrected in my FFC). In fact, the SIM even still says to collapse everything even though Squirrel says otherwise and most people know that's not very feasible on large suits.

The SIM also says to click your heals together to signal deployment and that the signal is mandatory. However, I have never once seen anyone do that.

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Westerly

***>Well I've seen several rather experienced WSers bring their arms in after deploying.

That used to be what was taught on the first-flight class. So not surprised people are doing that.



I've seen people try to collapse all the wings entirely and fall like a rock. That was taught to me prior to my FFC (which was then corrected in my FFC). In fact, the SIM even still says to collapse everything even though Squirrel says otherwise and most people know that's not very feasible on large suits.

The SIM also says to click your heals together to signal deployment and that the signal is mandatory. However, I have never once seen anyone do that.

Like any other form of skydiving, you are better off with a large bag of tricks, rather than few tricks. While you might be able to full collapse everything, being able to stop most forward motion and go straight down until a better deployment altitude can be the best choice in some traffic/wind situations. If you are part of a group with a specific breakoff plan and the leader takes you to a less than ideal spot, you might find yourself needing to stay put and just deploy right there, but lower than your are flying.

Regardless of how someone waves off, everyone should wave off before deployment. Yes, putting your feet together doesn't help your stability. I have seen some very entertaining wave offs.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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dthames

******>Well I've seen several rather experienced WSers bring their arms in after deploying.

That used to be what was taught on the first-flight class. So not surprised people are doing that.



I've seen people try to collapse all the wings entirely and fall like a rock. That was taught to me prior to my FFC (which was then corrected in my FFC). In fact, the SIM even still says to collapse everything even though Squirrel says otherwise and most people know that's not very feasible on large suits.

The SIM also says to click your heals together to signal deployment and that the signal is mandatory. However, I have never once seen anyone do that.

Regardless of how someone waves off, everyone should wave off before deployment. Yes, putting your feet together doesn't help your stability. I have seen some very entertaining wave offs.

This is interesting because wave-offs are something that I've asked several WS LOs and WS coaches (like legit ones who actually coach on a regular basis at a major DZ). The answer that I've universally received is that outside of your FFC, there is no waving off in WS. You just never fly behind someone around deployment altitude. I'm still new myself, but I've never seen someone wave off in a WS, ever. I've always done it myself by rolling my wrists back and fourth and shaking my hands, but I've repeatedly been told it's unnecessary outside of an FFC, and I am the only person I've know that does it.

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Westerly

*********>Well I've seen several rather experienced WSers bring their arms in after deploying.

That used to be what was taught on the first-flight class. So not surprised people are doing that.



I've seen people try to collapse all the wings entirely and fall like a rock. That was taught to me prior to my FFC (which was then corrected in my FFC). In fact, the SIM even still says to collapse everything even though Squirrel says otherwise and most people know that's not very feasible on large suits.

The SIM also says to click your heals together to signal deployment and that the signal is mandatory. However, I have never once seen anyone do that.

Regardless of how someone waves off, everyone should wave off before deployment. Yes, putting your feet together doesn't help your stability. I have seen some very entertaining wave offs.

This is interesting because wave-offs are something that I've asked several WS LOs and WS coaches (like legit ones who actually coach on a regular basis at a major DZ). The answer that I've universally received is that outside of your FFC, there is no waving off in WS. You just never fly behind someone around deployment altitude. I'm still new myself, but I've never seen someone wave off in a WS, ever. I've always done it myself by rolling my wrists back and fourth and shaking my hands, but I've repeatedly been told it's unnecessary outside of an FFC, and I am the only person I've know that does it.

Suppose you have 4 WS going up together. Joe has 600 WS jumps and always pulls about 3000. Larry and Jim have 200-300 WS jumps and Bob only has 54. So they put Bob in the lead as base. Someone says, Bob, where do you normally deploy. About 4,500 is the answer. So, we will form up on you, maybe takes some docks, and about 5,000 you give a signal and we will give you some room, you deploy, and we will go on for a bit. Joe falls behind a bit after trying to do something fun and is catching up to the group at 5500. Bob remembers he had some bad line twists last time and at the last minute decides he might pull a little higher. Bob don't normally signal a wave off and deploys at 4900 just as Joe is getting close to him. Stuff like that does happen.

I was taught, First you are a skydiver....check of 3s, low man has right of way, always wave off, watch for traffic in the pattern, all of basics. Put on the wingsuit, what has changed? You are still a skydiver.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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Once you start flying big suits the wave off kinda becomes the entire deployment process. When I see someone start a bit of a dive or start their flare that’s as good as a wave off for me and the people I usually jump with.

With newer people, small suits, and large groups of randoms I think it’s still prudent to either wave the hands or do a few quick motions with the legs.

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dthames

******>Well I've seen several rather experienced WSers bring their arms in after deploying.

That used to be what was taught on the first-flight class. So not surprised people are doing that.



I've seen people try to collapse all the wings entirely and fall like a rock. That was taught to me prior to my FFC (which was then corrected in my FFC). In fact, the SIM even still says to collapse everything even though Squirrel says otherwise and most people know that's not very feasible on large suits.

The SIM also says to click your heals together to signal deployment and that the signal is mandatory. However, I have never once seen anyone do that.

Like any other form of skydiving, you are better off with a large bag of tricks, rather than few tricks. While you might be able to full collapse everything, being able to stop most forward motion and go straight down until a better deployment altitude can be the best choice in some traffic/wind situations. If you are part of a group with a specific breakoff plan and the leader takes you to a less than ideal spot, you might find yourself needing to stay put and just deploy right there, but lower than your are flying.

Regardless of how someone waves off, everyone should wave off before deployment. Yes, putting your feet together doesn't help your stability. I have seen some very entertaining wave offs.

We did a formation record attempt the weekend before Thanksgiving. The largest formation jumps had 85 people in the formation. Everyone was expected to wave off before deployment.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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dthames

*********>Well I've seen several rather experienced WSers bring their arms in after deploying.

That used to be what was taught on the first-flight class. So not surprised people are doing that.



I've seen people try to collapse all the wings entirely and fall like a rock. That was taught to me prior to my FFC (which was then corrected in my FFC). In fact, the SIM even still says to collapse everything even though Squirrel says otherwise and most people know that's not very feasible on large suits.

The SIM also says to click your heals together to signal deployment and that the signal is mandatory. However, I have never once seen anyone do that.

Like any other form of skydiving, you are better off with a large bag of tricks, rather than few tricks. While you might be able to full collapse everything, being able to stop most forward motion and go straight down until a better deployment altitude can be the best choice in some traffic/wind situations. If you are part of a group with a specific breakoff plan and the leader takes you to a less than ideal spot, you might find yourself needing to stay put and just deploy right there, but lower than your are flying.

Regardless of how someone waves off, everyone should wave off before deployment. Yes, putting your feet together doesn't help your stability. I have seen some very entertaining wave offs.

We did a formation record attempt the weekend before Thanksgiving. The largest formation jumps had 85 people in the formation. Everyone was expected to wave off before deployment.

I would hope people waved off during a big way.

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I've personally found that the way you deploy totally depends on your suit and experience level. Early in your progression you should be fully collapsing your suit and falling into deployments. As you get better at understanding airspeed and AOA, you will build the necessary skills to be able to execute a true flare. This is when you should start experimenting with the timing of your deployments. I've personally found that on my PF C2RVE, deploying at the apex of the flare results in the most consistent, on heading openings.


As a general rule of thumb though, it really doesn't matter whether you fully collapse or fly into your deployments. What does matter is SYMMETRY! As long as your symmetrical from the moment your D-bag leaves the tray to line stretch, then you're probably going to have a decent opening.


LASTLY! - Deploying too late in the flare is better than deploying too early! The worst time you could pitch is when your AOA and airspeed are high. When in doubt, do a big ol' flare, enjoy the quiet air and soft squishy feeling of your suit, then pitch. Tossing your PC on a normal skydive is usually the "end" of your jump. In wingsuiting, deployment is just the beginning
Fly slow, pull low
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I'm the best skydiver on the mountain!

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