Wingsuits will achieve 4:1 sustained glide by...

[platypii 20]

Poll to see where people think we are, and where we're going with wingsuit performance. Not talking about with a flare, or with a tail wind. L/D

BASEline - Wingsuit Flight Computer

[yuri_base 1]

I didn't vote, because with WSMs being in the state of CoW, 4:1 is not coming from The Three Stooges for sure, but will alternative designs (like traditional split planform with non-zero AoI and leg wing with its own leading edge, possibly made of PU foam) be able to achieve L/D=4.0? Hard to say.

I'd be very happy if we achieve the magic L/D of 3.567. We have about 20% to go (3.0->3.6). So, if the non-zero AoI design can improve lift by only 9% (by having the leg wing produce more lift as it will have its own leading edge and higher aspect ratio) and reduce drag by only 10% (by reducing body drag by placing it at zero AoA, as well as lower drag from the leg wing), we have 20% total!

We should stop waiting for miracles from the 3xS and start making our own prototypes, test them using real wingsuit instrumentation, and back up the improvements with hard numbers.

Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

[birdynamnam 28]

I did some inquiries speaking with a few folks that like me took part in the latest World Championship (but are far better then myself).

In zero wind conditions we are currently at 3.5:1. And not yet 4:1.

So 3.5:1 folks.

[yuri_base 1]

birdynamnam

I did some inquiries speaking with a few folks that like me took part in the latest World Championship (but are far better then myself).

In zero wind conditions we are currently at 3.5:1. And not yet 4:1.

So 3.5:1 folks.

Wrong. 3.0 (+/- hundredths, maybe)

L/D is not determined by speaking with folks, it's determined by rigorous calculations like in the link, or by real wingsuit instrumentation like L/D Vario and L/D Magic.

Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

[LeeroyJenkins 2]

yuri_base

***I did some inquiries speaking with a few folks that like me took part in the latest World Championship (but are far better then myself).

In zero wind conditions we are currently at 3.5:1. And not yet 4:1.

So 3.5:1 folks.

Wrong. 3.0 (+/- hundredths, maybe)

L/D is not determined by speaking with folks, it's determined by rigorous calculations like in the link, or by real wingsuit instrumentation like L/D Vario and L/D Magic.

Isn't peddling your product against the rules? Rhetorical.

The Forum Rules:

1.No personal attacks.

2.No jokes about or references to pedophilia. None.

3.No advertising in the forums.

4.Post to the correct forum and stay on topic.

[johnmatrix 21]

I'm sure we can cope with Yuri mentioning his app once or twice or 100 times.

[mccordia 73]

Looking at most performance runs, the glide levels of around 3, even for the top pilots. 3:1 is current sustained glide. 3.5:1 is mostly wishfull thinking.

Looking at canopy design, its progressed with huge steps, but a 25 year old canopy has the same glide as the latest one. Its only dive/swoop/response etc thats been updated. But glide, close to zero.

Glide is limited by physics, and not influenced by marketing

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[LeeroyJenkins 2]

johnmatrix

I'm sure we can cope with Yuri mentioning his app once or twice or 100 times.

Sure, It really isn't a big deal. What is a big deal is him complaining about the main stream media manufactures marketing techniques while aggressively promoting his product based in junk science.

[birdynamnam 28]

I think it's a dead discussion that leads nowhere - and really is not interesting making it to a brand-war either.

With Canopies as with Wingsuits, manufactorers are investing much more in other aspects than glide, that is very true.

And actually the Performance Competitions, is about flying the suits in not only a straight line - doing planking. The vertical dive down to competition window, the energy conversion. The 3 different disciplins; speed, distance, time that require powerfull flares to create good well timed flares. Perfect navigation on top of that. This has not so much to do with sustained glide. Its more, all of what I described, mixed with the judges suddently ordering the runs in up-wind instead of down-wind - requirering different tactics and flying style to succeed - as happened at World's.. We do all of that with the same suit, so its not helpfull if the suit only has been developed for best glide. And so all of that makes the competition format interesting - at least to me. It' a Race, it's not a GR competition.

For Wingsuit manufactorers and performance improvements, it seems that drag reduction is the big game now for some time. Remove drag, so efficiency.

I talked to the best pilots atm about this they say towards 3.5:1 is where we are. For me this is good enough, not for formular driven people. So yes somewhere btw 3:1 to 3.5:1, is as close as we besides the great nej sayer can come Unless the great nej sayer lends his fantastic tool to the distance record holder from World's and they agree on a way of flying/measuring it.

[mccordia 73]

Quote

manufactorers are investing much more

Its not investing, just actual limits of physics..

The same best pilots often put down lower scores, showing wind seems to be the main factor pushing glide over 3. With PPC dives as only reference, most of the higher glide numbers show energy management and pilot skill, but not sustained glide.

Yuri maybe writing above most of our pay-grade does not make him the great nej-sayer. Just a realist, be it maybe sometimes partially incorrect, saying things most people don’t like hearing..

We’re still glorified bricks...not airplanes..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[birdynamnam 28]

Well the whole debate is just not interesting IMHO. As I explained, the performance competition, which I have participated in since 2015, is not about GR. It is other "performance data" that is compared not based on sustained GR. GR is listed, but in the Distance disipline it instead it is distance in meters that counts and that is wind, flare energy conversion plus sustained GR.

Canopies, wingsuits are for sure glorified bricks compared to e.g. gliders. I was told that I was flying in formation with a huge Hawk that glided with me at the recent comp "Wings over Marl". Unfortunately I was not looking to the right. I am sure the Hawk was thinking what is this? Some Brick?

[yuri_base 1]

birdynamnam

I talked to the best pilots atm about this they say towards 3.5:1 is where we are.

I've talked to "world champions", too, and they don't know the difference between L/D and GR, either. It is a trivial thing, but the number of people in our Solar System understanding what L/D actually is (that it's not just another notation for GR) can be counted on one hand... of a man who chopped some fingers off on a circular saw.

It's hopeless. The wingsuiting is stuck in the state of CoW perpetually. No desire to learn anything, to think, to progress... Only endless blah-blah-blah.

[inline CoW.gif]

birdynamnam

Unless the great nej sayer lends his fantastic tool to the distance record holder from World's and they agree on a way of flying/measuring it.

There's no need to lend anything, the tool (vane) can be made by anyone in one evening. The app (L/D Vario) is free and runs on any of the 4 platforms: Android, Wear, ios, Windows.

Maybe I should start a poll asking when someone else, besides me, is going to jump with a vane (the only way of reliably and precisely measuring wingsuit aerodynamics). But it's clear that it should have only one option: "Never".

Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

[birdynamnam 28]

Well 3 or 3.5, who cares really. I mean, it would be superb to have you provide your gadgets to the best gliding human out there, just for the fun, so that we finally could end this discution and then know what GR are at present optimally. Then you yourself might stand corrected, or sombody else... But as I tried to explain above, it's not really what manufactorers are woorking towards, it more than GR sort off. As explained..

[yuri_base 1]

birdynamnam

Well 3 or 3.5, who cares really.

L/D (not GR, who cares about it, really, other than people who don't know the difference) changing 3.0->3.5 is actually a HUGE deal. Look what the 20% change 2.5->3.0 did - we have much more massive dives and much more massive flares, and faster starts in BASE, enabling jumps that have not been possible before.

With L/D = 3.5 (almost the magic L/D of 3.567), we'll have mind-blowing flares and dives, the energy buildup and retention will improve dramatically (as I wrote in the Wingsuit Research thread, the dependence of these things on L/D is not linear, it's more like exponential). As well as new jumps opened in WS BASE.

birdynamnam

I mean, it would be superb to have you provide your gadgets to the best gliding human out there, just for the fun, so that we finally could end this discution and then know what GR are at present optimally.

I've offered my device several times, but no one is interested, although it almost happened with one world champion (I don't remember why it didn't happen - he was seemingly interested, but either I had to go, or he had to go, or what, don't remember.) People just don't understand it, and it seems weird to them. "I have a Flysight, why would I jump this weird thing?" They can have many thousands of jumps and several decades in the sport, but they don't understand the difference between GR and L/D.

But surely WSMs can build a vane for their smartphone or smartwatch and use the tool to quantify wingsuit characteristics? But they don't do that, because... CoW. (and I bet they don't understand the diff between GR and L/D, either)

Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

[LeeroyJenkins 2]

yuri_base

***Well 3 or 3.5, who cares really.

L/D (not GR, who cares about it, really, other than people who don't know the difference) changing 3.0->3.5 is actually a HUGE deal. Look what the 20% change 2.5->3.0 did - we have much more massive dives and much more massive flares, and faster starts in BASE, enabling jumps that have not been possible before.

With L/D = 3.5 (almost the magic L/D of 3.567), we'll have mind-blowing flares and dives, the energy buildup and retention will improve dramatically (as I wrote in the Wingsuit Research thread, the dependence of these things on L/D is not linear, it's more like exponential). As well as new jumps opened in WS BASE.

birdynamnam

I mean, it would be superb to have you provide your gadgets to the best gliding human out there, just for the fun, so that we finally could end this discution and then know what GR are at present optimally.

I've offered my device several times, but no one is interested, although it almost happened with one world champion (I don't remember why it didn't happen - he was seemingly interested, but either I had to go, or he had to go, or what, don't remember.) People just don't understand it, and it seems weird to them. "I have a Flysight, why would I jump this weird thing?" They can have many thousands of jumps and several decades in the sport, but they don't understand the difference between GR and L/D.

But surely WSMs can build a vane for their smartphone or smartwatch and use the tool to quantify wingsuit characteristics? But they don't do that, because... CoW. (and I bet they don't understand the diff between GR and L/D, either)

Why do you think 3.567 is the magic L/D ratio for wingsuit flight? What parameter of the wingsuit flight is that magic number for?

[birdynamnam 28]

yuri_base

I've offered my device several times, but no one is interested, although it almost happened with one world champion (I don't remember why it didn't happen - he was seemingly interested, but either I had to go, or he had to go,

Keep pushing, you will eventually have the data

[yuri_base 1]

birdynamnam

***I've offered my device several times, but no one is interested, although it almost happened with one world champion (I don't remember why it didn't happen - he was seemingly interested, but either I had to go, or he had to go,

Keep pushing, you will eventually have the data

Nope. Not interested in pushing anything anymore, gave up long time ago. It's hopeless. I'm creating my apps and further developing wingsuit dynamics theory purely for myself now. But whenever I come up with some idea and create, for example, an app based on it (like I did with Wingsuit FAP), I put it up for everyone to use. But pushing it is hopeless, no one is interested.

And it's not like WSMs don't know about these advancements in WS instrumentation, many pilots working closely for every major WSM saw my devices. Also, the apps can be easily found just by searching app stores for "wingsuit", once in a while (I do that at least once a year - nothing new or interesting, only stupid WS games, which don't even have physics done right). They're not interested in quantifying wingsuit aerodynamics because it will work against them - people will see that nothing is really changing in yearly updated wingsuits, while using Godzilla Marketing works wonders for them as they can push these overpriced $2000 dresses as "massive advancements in technology".

Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

[aonsquared 9]

LeeroyJenkins

Why do you think 3.567 is the magic L/D ratio for wingsuit flight? What parameter of the wingsuit flight is that magic number for?

He's not going to answer that, it's too straightforward Also he's pretty much talking to himself now.

However, I can answer about the 1.41 L/D (which he thinks he discovered and is "magic") , it's trivially derived from 1/2 *rho*V^2*S*C_d if you treat C_d as a constant (which seems to be the limit of his abilities).

In this case, he's lucky because the induced drag component at higher speeds is small compared to profile drag. However, this value only assumes a straight-line glide and constant velocity. The path with the highest average horizontal velocity will be a cycloid similar to those derived by Jakob Bernoulli and Isaac Newton in the 17th century. (much harder to fly, though)

[birdynamnam 28]

yuri_base

...while using Godzilla Marketing works wonders for them as they can push these overpriced $2000 dresses as "massive advancements in technology".

While there are not any great advances done in GR, in Race suits coming out the last 1.5 years, I have noticed vast improvements in how easy they can be flown to the max and beyond. For me it was the 2k well worth easily. In other cases, I found new models did not bring anything over the previous model really - and so you could argue that that money was indeed wasted. I am so much guilty in upgrading too often. There is however a couple of new suits that I have that is almost mindblowingly more joyful to fly than the previous ones where I have felt the money was well spent and the marketing was correct. I did not so far get a new model of a suit where I think it actually got worse

Keep pushing find this guy as he is out there, and let him fly with your instrumentation in neutral winds. Get the data. Post it.

[kat00 11]

yuri_base

while using Godzilla Marketing works wonders for them as they can push these overpriced $2000 dresses as "massive advancements in technology".

Where is this Godzilla Marketing about massive advancements? When I think of big marketing I think of the Apple Press event for the new iphones or other big unveils with lots of Marketing Bs.

Wingsuit manufacturers have pretty tame and low budget websites along with a simple facebook and instagram presence. They have a few cool videos and stuff but it doesn't say you can't fly anymore unless you have the latest. The people who do upgrade with the latest suits are the same people who likely upgrade their phones every year for the latest and greatest.

The best marketing for wingsuit manufacturers is essentially word of mouth. What is your friend flying and do they like it compared to other suits. You give these small companies way too much credit for a few simple videos and quotes on the website.

[yuri_base 1]

birdynamnam

Keep pushing find this guy as he is out there, and let him fly with your instrumentation in neutral winds. Get the data. Post it.

DIY

The videos I posted in "Wingsuit Research" thread, are enough for anyone to get the idea and make a vane mount for their phone. It's a trivial DIY project. Belly platform, pole, fork, vane, balance - all can be built from simple materials in a matter of several hours. It's no rocket science.

I'm not going to chase anyone.

Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

[birdynamnam 28]

I don't upgrade my phone, like at all. I'm into nylon

[LeeroyJenkins 2]

aonsquared

***Why do you think 3.567 is the magic L/D ratio for wingsuit flight? What parameter of the wingsuit flight is that magic number for?

He's not going to answer that, it's too straightforward Also he's pretty much talking to himself now.

However, I can answer about the 1.41 L/D (which he thinks he discovered and is "magic") , it's trivially derived from 1/2 *rho*V^2*S*C_d if you treat C_d as a constant (which seems to be the limit of his abilities).

In this case, he's lucky because the induced drag component at higher speeds is small compared to profile drag. However, this value only assumes a straight-line glide and constant velocity. The path with the highest average horizontal velocity will be a cycloid similar to those derived by Jakob Bernoulli and Isaac Newton in the 17th century. (much harder to fly, though)

He has a lot of, in my educated mechanical engineer opinion, bad assumptions.

[LeeroyJenkins 2]

For everyone reading this thread I will explain a small amount.

There is one constant our friend here fails to take into account. The biggest issue for wingsuit design is the fact that the airframe is human sized. This is and will always be the biggest limiting factor to wingsuits.

[lyosha 46]

mccordia

Looking at most performance runs, the glide levels of around 3, even for the top pilots. 3:1 is current sustained glide. 3.5:1 is mostly wishfull thinking.

Looking at canopy design, its progressed with huge steps, but a 25 year old canopy has the same glide as the latest one. Its only dive/swoop/response etc thats been updated. But glide, close to zero.

Glide is limited by physics, and not influenced by marketing

Look at paragliding.

Skydiving canopies may not have changed much, but ram air canopies underwent a revolution. As recently as a few years ago was the latest breakthrough - shark nose.