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pr3d4t0r

CURV vs Vector M-351 for speed skydiving?

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Hi!

Looking at the RI CURV 2.0 and the Vector3 M-351 for speed skydiving. We were pretty much set on the M-351 but UPT's delivery dates may be too far in the future.

CURV: http://rigginginnovations.com/skydiving-containers/curv
Vector3: http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/sp?view=item

I'm not as familiar with RIs containers as I am with UPT or Sun Path. Any pointers, references will be welcome.

(We've evaluated a pile of other rigs from Sun Path, Peregrine Velocity, and so on -- you're seeing what looks like our finalists.)

Thanks in advance and blue skies!

pr3d
Eugenio, home: Bay Area Skydiving, CA USA

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I have a Curv 2.0 (VC0) that I use for regular jumps and initially used for WS Performance. I found that the Curv bio yoke, while comfortable, lifts the actual yoke off your back and cups air which has a noticeable effect on stability at 160mph+ during WS Performance runs. I did 4 back to back jumps with a Javelin Odyssey (yoke comes almost to a point and sits flush against your back) and the difference was easily noticeable. The Curv forced me to move my head back to deflect airflow from the yoke to improve stability. I switched to an Aurora for WS Performance which has the same reserve tray as the Odyssey and solved my instability issues.

Having said that, I spoke to an accomplished freeflyer that has a Curv 2.0 and he hadn’t noticed issues when he’s head down.

I'm not familiar with body position in Speed Skydiving, so this may not impact you. For regular jumps I'm happy with the Curv.

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Hi Kristian_AUS!

Thanks for your detailed reply.

Quote

I'm not familiar with body position in Speed Skydiving, so this may not impact you. For regular jumps I'm happy with the Curv.



This is the body position; steeper now than when the photo was taken. After doing some math it looks like the optimal angle of attack is 85º with respect to the ground; right now I'm flying my J3 at around 70º - 75º, working on improving a few things:

https://eugeneciurana.com/fotki/_data/i/upload/2018/09/20/20180920145353-71a88329-xl.jpg

Air pressure is on my head, shoulders, and upper chest, the rest of my body is in the burble; air pressure anywhere else means I fly slower than I want. My current rig is a 1995 Javelin J3 with heavy free fly customization (free fly pull, bridle flap, new chest straps, masking tape over shoulder flaps before every speed jump, etc.) that our pals from Sun Path engineering and USPA vetted for competition since I couldn't get my hands on the new gear in time for USPA nationals.

The canopies for the CURVs will be a Safire 3 169 and a Sabre 2 170, both with PD 160 reserves. I spoke with Scott at RI this morning, chatting with my rigger later about next steps.

Your comments are very helpful, I'll bring them to the conversation with them later today.

Take care and blue skies!

pr3d
Eugenio, home: Bay Area Skydiving, CA USA

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pr3d4t0r

Looking at the RI CURV 2.0 and the Vector3 M-351 for speed skydiving.



Look further! Stay away from magnetic riser covers for speed skydiving!
"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

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I'm doing speed with a Curv 2.0, and most of the time it works like a charm. The rig is a very good fit, and of course I crank all straps to maximum for a speed skydive. No lifting or shifting at all, not even an inch.
Regarding the magnetic riser covers, I had them pop open a number of times when decelerating with a less than optimal body position, so I'm thinking of getting a third pair of magnets inserted by my rigger, but so far, on more than a hundred speed skydives, that has happened maybe 4 or 5 times, and never during the speed phase.
Risers stayed where they should, but of course, that is not optimal.
Not sure how the Vector riser covers would fare.
Pilot chute with freefly handle on my Curv is as good as it can possible be, very secure and tight fit if you know how to pack it. I have seen Curvs where the BOC pouch would have to be tightened though.

The Curv currently gets bonus points for being able to slide the ProTracks under the lateral covers without the need for add-on pouches (ISSA-approved). They can fit in when the rig is not on me, but once it's on my back, they are locked by the container.
If we're moving to Flysight though (and it looks like we will), that point is moot.

(edit for typos)

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Magnetic riser covers don't have the best track record of staying closed in high speeds combined with non-belly orientations.
That being said, they have evolved considerably by using better overlap and stronger and more magnets.
For regular skydiving (including freefly), there usually is no problem in using modern magnetic riser covers.
Speed-oriented disciplines like speed skydiving and - as I learned today - wingsuit speed performance can still be an issue though.

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Curious what the reason for this advice is, if you wouldn't mind elaborating...



What EnricoPalazzo said, up to a point. You want your rig to be as tight as possible. Anything that flaps or is otherwise out of place is a no-no; at best it'll slow the pilot down by bleeding kinetic energy, at worst it may lead to a premature deployment if the pilot tumbles with enough force.

If anyone is interested I'll post photos later of my 1994 Javelin J3 with all the modifications we made to it for speed skydiving competition. In a nutshell:

* New reserve pack and new main parachute, new lines -- tight packing
* Added: freefly bridle side flap
* Replaced: pilot chute, bridle, soft freefly handle (old - hacky)
* Replaced: longer chest strap
* Replaced: chest and leg strap elastic loops
* Extra careful reserve packing to ensure no reserve material is visible
* Modified: rerouted RSL and teflon cutaway to minimize exposure
* BEFORE EVERY JUMP: loop masking tape twice around the riser covers

Our riggers at Bay Area Skydiving made the modifications with Sun Path, NZ Sports, and PD engineering review; USPA competition judges OK'd them.

On ground tests against a rig with magnets, my old J3's riser covers were about as tight as in a new free fly rig (I think it was a Vector) with magnets. We could've used a dynamometer to measure the force required to open them, but rigger was happy. Tight as they were, one or the other would some times pop open at high speed (>= 325 km/h) during a wobble.

The masking tape over the riser covers and flaps is a must. It provides enough friction to stop them from opening without jeopardizing normal openings.

I haven't had a single incident of open riser covers on wobble or tumble since we incorporated the masking tape, around 40 jumps ago. Before that I had about one out of every 8 jumps. That's from a total of ~150 jumps since I began to learn how to speed skydive (and I wasted about 70 jumps doing all the wrong things!).

Even with magnets I will continue to tape the riser covers in the new rigs. No reason not to, it's now part of the pre-jump check list, and it offers a bit more peace of mind.

Blue skies!

pr3d
Eugenio, home: Bay Area Skydiving, CA USA

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Quote

Magnetic riser covers don't have the best track record of staying closed in high speeds combined with non-belly orientations.
That being said, they have evolved considerably by using better overlap and stronger and more magnets.
For regular skydiving (including freefly), there usually is no problem in using modern magnetic riser covers.
Speed-oriented disciplines like speed skydiving and - as I learned today - wingsuit speed performance can still be an issue though.



Interesting, thanks. As a gear seller, I appreciate you helping me understand what's important to this particular customer segment, and why!

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pr3d4t0r

Hi Kristian_AUS!

Thanks for your detailed reply.

Quote

I'm not familiar with body position in Speed Skydiving, so this may not impact you. For regular jumps I'm happy with the Curv.



This is the body position; steeper now than when the photo was taken. After doing some math it looks like the optimal angle of attack is 85º with respect to the ground; right now I'm flying my J3 at around 70º - 75º, working on improving a few things:

https://eugeneciurana.com/fotki/_data/i/upload/2018/09/20/20180920145353-71a88329-xl.jpg

Air pressure is on my head, shoulders, and upper chest, the rest of my body is in the burble; air pressure anywhere else means I fly slower than I want. My current rig is a 1995 Javelin J3 with heavy free fly customization (free fly pull, bridle flap, new chest straps, masking tape over shoulder flaps before every speed jump, etc.) that our pals from Sun Path engineering and USPA vetted for competition since I couldn't get my hands on the new gear in time for USPA nationals.

The canopies for the CURVs will be a Safire 3 169 and a Sabre 2 170, both with PD 160 reserves. I spoke with Scott at RI this morning, chatting with my rigger later about next steps.

Your comments are very helpful, I'll bring them to the conversation with them later today.

Take care and blue skies!

pr3d




Ah, I remember you from Nationals. Based on the position in that picture your head looks to be blocking the airflow from the yoke so it may not affect you. I tried a similar head position for WS Performance and it reduced instability a touch but created more drag for me as my chest was presented more.

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Hi mathrick!

I'll look for more -- it went to Javelin heaven on 22.Dec.2018, when we took this photo.  My new CURV v2.0 rigs arrived and I flew/tested them last weekend.

J3 modifications:

  • Removed the leg pilot chute pocket
  • Tightened the BOC pocket
  • Added a bridle flap to the bottom flap
  • Replaced the pilot chute hacky with pilot chute with free fly handle
  • Replaced the chest strap with a longer one
  • Worked with my rigger to ensure that the reserve was as slim as possible
  • Replaced originals with 23" Chutingstar risers (canopy modification, but it affected the rig by providing a tighter packing with those ugly red toggles pushing against the reserve)
  • Riser covers were enhanced with three loops of masking tape before every jump (enough friction to prevent them from opening during a tumble, not enough force to prevent the main from deploying)
  • Extra rubber bands complemented the elastic loops for the leg and chest straps -- no flappy drag

I think that covers everything.  The new CURV 2.0 configs were custom built (RI was super-helpful in nailing every detail).  The biggest changes were:

  • Back to rig OEM risers - the Chutingstar 23" risers are too long to reach, and the red front toggles are a pain to pack
  • Pull out pilot chute
  • RSL + Mojo

Cheers!

pr3d4t0r

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