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REDAKTOR

Commercial balloon tandem skydives?

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Is that allowed for USPA TI rating holders? Because I'm pretty sure both USPA and rig manufacturers ban tandem demo jumps, and balloon jumps from 13 000 feet that drop wherever are at least as dangerous as a demo jump.

Should this be reported to someone, or is it not such a big deal?

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You would be incorrect, Tandem demo’s are allowed but have stated limitations in the US.
You can find the info in the USPA Sims manual and the FAR’s. I see you hold ratings but are not in the US. What your countries rules are I have no idea.
"You don't get many warnings in this sport before you get damaged"

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BKS60

You would be incorrect, Tandem demo’s are allowed but have stated limitations in the US.
You can find the info in the USPA Sims manual and the FAR’s. I see you hold ratings but are not in the US. What your countries rules are I have no idea.



Really? Can you elaborate on this direct quote from the sigma manual then?

Quote

Using t his system outside the student/tandem
instructor training environments is
considered a violation of federal law
(FAA example No. 4943).
Examples of violations: demonstration jumps,
stunt jumps,
intentional water jumps,
night jumps,
jumping with any student less than 18 years of age, BASE
jumps and Tandem jump that takes
place off of a designated drop zone.



The person in question holds USPA TI rating, but the jumps were not done in USA.
So its interesting what
a) USPA position on that
b) TI community opinion in general on such jumps

Jumper experience in question is a few hundred tandem jumps and a bit over a thousand skydives total.

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BKS60

FAA
AC 105-2E



Quote


a) Tandem jumps into open field and Level I landing areas do not require any
previous jump experience for the
passenger.



What exactly is a level 1 landing area? Does a random field that looks like its level, along the balloon trajectory qualify?

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USPA SIM 9.4

Not quite sure you realize this, but virtually all tandems are 'commercial jumps.'

Every DZ I know of uses the income from tandems to pay the bills. Fun jumpers alone won't generate enough money.

It sounds like you are questioning whether or not a tandem jump from a higher altitude balloon, landing in a 'random field' (as balloon jumps almost always do) is within the rules.

I don't know the answer to that question, but it would probably help to make the question a bit more specific.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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wolfriverjoe


I don't know the answer to that question, but it would probably help to make the question a bit more specific.



Sorry for the unclear subject, what I meant was surely commercial balloon tandem jumps.

As in plain balloon rides, where on top a TI takes a pax and jumps out at some point. No DZ involved in this.

My personal opinion is that this is an accident waiting to happen, potentially with high risk of injury. I make that opinion based on the fact that rig manufactures specifically ban demo tandem jumps.
Or am I being too judgemental?

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You almost got there.
Your level 1 area quote from the AC is 12.a.6.a
Your answer is 12.a 2 also open field areas 12.a.1 are allowed.
As to a balloon jump from 13k and does a field look level. No idea you would need to ask the TI on the jump. He is the one who is or was making the spot and once leaving the craft is the PIC.
Having landed a tandem off the intended landing area before it’s up to the TI to make his or her best decisions.

I won’t judge them from my couch.
"You don't get many warnings in this sport before you get damaged"

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This is really a question about landing areas.

Landing in random farmers’ fields is low risk in the Canadian Prairies, but damanably dangerous along the coast of British Columbia.
Yes, wind shifts have forced me to land in farmers’s fields - near regular DZs - in several countries. We always adjusted the exit “spot” before the next jump.

I would never plan a tandem jump to land in a random field.

How does a tandem pair exit a balloon stable?

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REDAKTOR


The person in question holds USPA TI rating, but the jumps were not done in USA.



In most situations, USPA members and rating holders are not in violation if they are following the rules in the country where they are jumping. Cloud busts are a good example. In countries where jumping through clouds is legal, USPA members and rating holders are allowed to jump through them.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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chuckakers

***
The person in question holds USPA TI rating, but the jumps were not done in USA.



In most situations, USPA members and rating holders are not in violation if they are following the rules in the country where they are jumping. Cloud busts are a good example. In countries where jumping through clouds is legal, USPA members and rating holders are allowed to jump through them.

How often do jumpers exiting balloons at DZs or Boogies in the US land off? It it normal or does the balloon pilot judge the winds in a way that allows landing in the same place as the other jumpers?
I only have one balloon jump. It was incredibly memorable, maybe even a bit of history, but not at a DZ or a boogie

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Bob_Church

******
The person in question holds USPA TI rating, but the jumps were not done in USA.



In most situations, USPA members and rating holders are not in violation if they are following the rules in the country where they are jumping. Cloud busts are a good example. In countries where jumping through clouds is legal, USPA members and rating holders are allowed to jump through them.

How often do jumpers exiting balloons at DZs or Boogies in the US land off? It it normal or does the balloon pilot judge the winds in a way that allows landing in the same place as the other jumpers?
I only have one balloon jump. It was incredibly memorable, maybe even a bit of history, but not at a DZ or a boogie

I have personally never known of a balloon tandem in more than 30 years of jumping, so I assume it's rare. That said, I'm sure there have been some.

As for landing off, I would have no idea if that's the norm or if launch points are calculated to allow for on-field landings.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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chuckakers

*********
The person in question holds USPA TI rating, but the jumps were not done in USA.



In most situations, USPA members and rating holders are not in violation if they are following the rules in the country where they are jumping. Cloud busts are a good example. In countries where jumping through clouds is legal, USPA members and rating holders are allowed to jump through them.

How often do jumpers exiting balloons at DZs or Boogies in the US land off? It it normal or does the balloon pilot judge the winds in a way that allows landing in the same place as the other jumpers?
I only have one balloon jump. It was incredibly memorable, maybe even a bit of history, but not at a DZ or a boogie

I have personally never known of a balloon tandem in more than 30 years of jumping, so I assume it's rare. That said, I'm sure there have been some.

As for landing off, I would have no idea if that's the norm or if launch points are calculated to allow for on-field landings.


I don't mean for tandems but for balloon jumps at DZs or Boogies. Is landing out normal?

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riggerrob

This is really a question about landing areas.

Landing in random farmers’ fields is low risk in the Canadian Prairies, but damanably dangerous along the coast of British Columbia.
Yes, wind shifts have forced me to land in farmers’s fields - near regular DZs - in several countries. We always adjusted the exit “spot” before the next jump.

I would never plan a tandem jump to land in a random field.

How does a tandem pair exit a balloon stable?




Very easily. You take a step ladder about the height of the rail, walk up, and step off head high.

Redacktor- yes, you're being too picky. No big deal. Also, did you know you can see the ground from 13k? It's easy enough to pick a filed from your predetermined options before take off. C'mob guys, find something else to bitch about other than your own lack of imagination and talent.

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Bob_Church

************
The person in question holds USPA TI rating, but the jumps were not done in USA.



In most situations, USPA members and rating holders are not in violation if they are following the rules in the country where they are jumping. Cloud busts are a good example. In countries where jumping through clouds is legal, USPA members and rating holders are allowed to jump through them.

How often do jumpers exiting balloons at DZs or Boogies in the US land off? It it normal or does the balloon pilot judge the winds in a way that allows landing in the same place as the other jumpers?
I only have one balloon jump. It was incredibly memorable, maybe even a bit of history, but not at a DZ or a boogie

I have personally never known of a balloon tandem in more than 30 years of jumping, so I assume it's rare. That said, I'm sure there have been some.

As for landing off, I would have no idea if that's the norm or if launch points are calculated to allow for on-field landings.


I don't mean for tandems but for balloon jumps at DZs or Boogies. Is landing out normal?

Yes. Landing out is normal. That's because, except at certain controlled places, they don't have a damn landing area. It's the Balloon way of doing things. Off you go and when you land wherever you must you just pull out a bottle of cheap Champagne and a few time worn apologies and you are good.

We have the same get out of jail free card, you know. Read your case law. The example of trespass by necessity describes a skydiver "blown off course".

Were are responsible for actual damages but that's it. If the farmer or neighbor harms you or you harm yourself escaping his wrath she is liable.

And yes, DZO's, I know your jumpers are reading this.

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"Yes. Landing out is normal. That's because, except at certain controlled places, they don't have a damn landing area. It's the Balloon way of doing things. Off you go and when you land wherever you must you just pull out a bottle of cheap Champagne and a few time worn apologies and you are good.

We have the same get out of jail free card, you know. Read your case law. The example of trespass by necessity describes a skydiver "blown off course".

Were are responsible for actual damages but that's it. If the farmer or neighbor harms you or you harm yourself escaping his wrath she is liable.

And yes, DZO's, I know your jumpers are reading th"

I don't really need case law, I helped with the successful defense at TAS from Farmer McNasty by printing out poster sized layouts of the area. The Judge liked them, they gave him a sense of proportion about landing areas.
And as for balloons, I've only had one, but it was from John Firor's balloon, his first and more than likely only, time to have someone jump from his balloon after a glorious tour of Colorado just outside of Boulder. And the champagne wasn't cheap, but he had earned a good retirement.
But the ads I read for some DZs imply they they take off and exit in such a way that most jumpers land at the DZ. I was wondering how realistic those claims are.

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I remember my briefing from a balloon pilot at a Dollar Daze boogie in Fort Dodge IA. He showed me aerial pictures and pointed out what beans and corn look like from above. Then he advised me "you don't want to land in the corn". As it happened the morning air was pretty calm and I was the first exit. I landed on the airport property. But most of us fully expected a high probability of landing in a crop. So yes, landing "out" would be normal.

For a tandem you need more altitude. Balloon skydives don't normally go high enough for safe tandems. So you would need to go higher. And the higher they go the more likely they are to drift away. You probably should assume the exit will not be stable, so you won't want to short yourself on altitude.

Back to the original question. Which pretty much was asking "should I rat this guy out to someone?". No, but maybe you should say where this jump happened. And maybe you should talk to the people involved and learn about their system.

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Bob_Church

*** Just getting out of the basket itself would be a hassle for a tandem. For a one off, maybe, but commercial? Nah.



It seems like you'd almost have to rig something up for launching backwards, like divers leaving a boat.

——————————————————————————

How does a tandem exit a balloon stable?

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"I remember my briefing from a balloon pilot at a Dollar Daze boogie in Fort Dodge IA. He showed me aerial pictures and pointed out what beans and corn look like from above. Then he advised me "you don't want to land in the corn". As it happened the morning air was pretty calm and I was the first exit. I landed on the airport property. But most of us fully expected a high probability of landing in a crop. So yes, landing "out" would be normal. "

Thanks, that's the part I was wondering about.

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