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REDAKTOR

Commercial balloon tandem skydives?

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"Back to the original question. Which pretty much was asking "should I rat this guy out to someone?". No, but maybe you should say where this jump happened. And maybe you should talk to the people involved and learn about their system."

Sometimes a person needs to sit down, alone in a quiet place, and do an honest evaluation of why they want to do this. I've known people, almost always low time jumpers, who thought they had some reason or right to tell me I should be wearing a helmet and even imply that they wouldn't jump with me if I didn't. I can tell you how much sleep I lost over that possibility.
As I've often said, I think the sport gets a lot safer when we all spend our time worrying about our own faults rather than looking for them in others.
And no, to the usual responder on this, this has nothing to do with taking care of each other. Watching out for each other has nothing to do with looking for reasons to go playing Kommissar and hoping to turn someone in for something.

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gowlerk

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How does a tandem exit a balloon stable?




No problem Rob. Just get the pilot to hang on tight to the drogue like a static line!




Don’t give people ideas!!!!
:)
"You don't get many warnings in this sport before you get damaged"

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BKS60

***

Quote

How does a tandem exit a balloon stable?




No problem Rob. Just get the pilot to hang on tight to the drogue like a static line!




Don’t give people ideas!!!!
:)


Sorry, of course that's a bad idea. It might slip out of the pilot's hand. Far safer to tie the drogue handle to the balloon basket with 80 lb break cord.

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JoeWeber


Yes. Landing out is normal. That's because, except at certain controlled places, they don't have a damn landing area. It's the Balloon way of doing things. Off you go and when you land wherever you must you just pull out a bottle of cheap Champagne and a few time worn apologies and you are good.



I was telling my dad one day about the World View Enterprises stratosphere balloons and how they can hold a commercial payload over the same spot for months by taking advantage of different air currents that go in different directions at different altitudes. If they start going off course, they just go higher or lower to catch a current in their favor. To my surprise, my dad told me that some hot air balloonists do the same thing. He had worked as a traveling ground crew for some balloon accuracy landing contest. They would carry a helium tank and occasionally release helium balloons to observe which way the air currents were going above them. While I get that there is a lot of special skill involved in that kind of accuracy landing, it does suggest that with the right experience even balloons don't HAVE to land in some random field.
Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

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AtrusBatleth

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Yes. Landing out is normal. That's because, except at certain controlled places, they don't have a damn landing area. It's the Balloon way of doing things. Off you go and when you land wherever you must you just pull out a bottle of cheap Champagne and a few time worn apologies and you are good.



I was telling my dad one day about the World View Enterprises stratosphere balloons and how they can hold a commercial payload over the same spot for months by taking advantage of different air currents that go in different directions at different altitudes. If they start going off course, they just go higher or lower to catch a current in their favor. To my surprise, my dad told me that some hot air balloonists do the same thing. He had worked as a traveling ground crew for some balloon accuracy landing contest. They would carry a helium tank and occasionally release helium balloons to observe which way the air currents were going above them. While I get that there is a lot of special skill involved in that kind of accuracy landing, it does suggest that with the right experience even balloons don't HAVE to land in some random field.

The helium balloon pilots can navigate from one continent to another and land where they want to. Usually. Well, close. Most of the time. Anyway. Kittinger has some great stories about it. I think they're in "Come Up and Get Me"

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AtrusBatleth

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Yes. Landing out is normal. That's because, except at certain controlled places, they don't have a damn landing area. It's the Balloon way of doing things. Off you go and when you land wherever you must you just pull out a bottle of cheap Champagne and a few time worn apologies and you are good.



I was telling my dad one day about the World View Enterprises stratosphere balloons and how they can hold a commercial payload over the same spot for months by taking advantage of different air currents that go in different directions at different altitudes. If they start going off course, they just go higher or lower to catch a current in their favor. To my surprise, my dad told me that some hot air balloonists do the same thing. He had worked as a traveling ground crew for some balloon accuracy landing contest. They would carry a helium tank and occasionally release helium balloons to observe which way the air currents were going above them. While I get that there is a lot of special skill involved in that kind of accuracy landing, it does suggest that with the right experience even balloons don't HAVE to land in some random field.

Excepting that the balloon yo's that will let us jump are, well, yo's. I had a balloon land in my seed field 2 weeks ago. He was 14 miles from his hoped for trespass area. He was all sorry and had no clue I was a Skydive operator. I took a pass on the cheap champagne and wished him and his customers well. But seriously, it was a douche thing to do.

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JoeWeber


Excepting that the balloon yo's that will let us jump are, well, yo's. I had a balloon land in my seed field 2 weeks ago. He was 14 miles from his hoped for trespass area. He was all sorry and had no clue I was a Skydive operator. I took a pass on the cheap champagne and wished him and his customers well. But seriously, it was a douche thing to do.



I could use some translation there, including from farmer-ese. What is a seed field? Is it free from visible crops (just seeded?) -- which looks ideal to land in? Or is it just crops like any other field with stuff growing -- but that you happen to growing for seed? In which case some meadow or field with cut hay would be a better target.

So how was it a douche thing to do, to land in your field - other than that it is YOUR field? Did you verify that his balloon navigational skills were poor? Using different air layers winds backing or veering would be expensive in terms of fuel I would think. So as long as he wasn't heading towards dangerous territory or a tough retrieve by his ground crew, wouldn't a field in any direction be as good as any other? I'm trying to get at why the 14 miles thing matters.

Balloons in general do effectively have this weird system where they are 99% likely to trespass when on a flight, just that whose land gets trespassed on, is a bit random.

Just trying to understand the situation from a farmer's point of view -- Other than that balloons dropping in are clearly an annoyance.

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"Just trying to understand the situation from a farmer's point of view -- Other than that balloons dropping in are clearly an annoyance. "

The procedures I got from John when he took several of us for for rides and on one leg let me jump is that occasionally the property owner will shake their head or wave their hands and he then ascends before actually touching down. That way it's no big thing for either. He made it sound like it was pretty common for that area, but maybe he was just more considerate than most.
Having a balloon land, then the ground crew meet with it and the pilot, in the middle of a field where you're trying to grow a crop could definitely piss a person off. And if you're not going to do those things there would be no reason to land.
We had an ultralight land in a corn field across from where we normally land. Yes, we'd occasionally land there but we'd gather up our gear and very carefully walk out in a way that caused little if any damage. The ultralight crew drove a pickup truck to him and pretty much destroyed a lot of his crop and just kept going.
What really bothered me is when the farmer came up to the airport yelling about us skydivers messing up his field.

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pchapman

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Excepting that the balloon yo's that will let us jump are, well, yo's. I had a balloon land in my seed field 2 weeks ago. He was 14 miles from his hoped for trespass area. He was all sorry and had no clue I was a Skydive operator. I took a pass on the cheap champagne and wished him and his customers well. But seriously, it was a douche thing to do.



I could use some translation there, including from farmer-ese. What is a seed field? Is it free from visible crops (just seeded?) -- which looks ideal to land in? Or is it just crops like any other field with stuff growing -- but that you happen to growing for seed? In which case some meadow or field with cut hay would be a better target.

So how was it a douche thing to do, to land in your field - other than that it is YOUR field? Did you verify that his balloon navigational skills were poor? Using different air layers winds backing or veering would be expensive in terms of fuel I would think. So as long as he wasn't heading towards dangerous territory or a tough retrieve by his ground crew, wouldn't a field in any direction be as good as any other? I'm trying to get at why the 14 miles thing matters.

Balloons in general do effectively have this weird system where they are 99% likely to trespass when on a flight, just that whose land gets trespassed on, is a bit random.

Just trying to understand the situation from a farmer's point of view -- Other than that balloons dropping in are clearly an annoyance.

Grass seed is a major crop in Oregon. I'm surrounded by seed fields. I bought a 20 acre field, almost adjacent the airport, several years back and let my farmer neighbors farm it for free. Very good for neighbor relations.

It was a douche move because he knew on take-off he'd be trespassing somewhere, not because it was my field. It's the same as if you jumped well away from the DZ knowing full well you'd be landing somewhere without permission. Douche move.

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JoeWeber

It was a douche move because he knew on take-off he'd be trespassing somewhere, not because it was my field.



Yes, that's a basic part of balloon operations. It is a weird social convention that not everyone would be comfortable with and that probably isn't very clearly spelled out in law.

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>Balloons in general do effectively have this weird system where they are 99% likely to
>trespass when on a flight, just that whose land gets trespassed on, is a bit random.

99%? Around here the balloon operators can often land within a few hundred yards of their planned destination - usually an empty field as close as possible to a road. I have absolutely no idea how they do it - and am in awe of that ability - but they do it consistently, so it's not luck.

I'd believe something like 20%, based purely on observation from the regular coastal flights we see here.

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billvon

>Balloons in general do effectively have this weird system where they are 99% likely to
>trespass when on a flight, just that whose land gets trespassed on, is a bit random.

99%? Around here the balloon operators can often land within a few hundred yards of their planned destination - usually an empty field as close as possible to a road. I have absolutely no idea how they do it - and am in awe of that ability - but they do it consistently, so it's not luck.

I'd believe something like 20%, based purely on observation from the regular coastal flights we see here.




Like chucking a student out on an unmodified roundie, or calculating the exit point for a high altitude cross country jump, its all about the wind.

Not really that difficult with experience and raw animal cunning.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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That's all good if you have a buddy with land that's downwind of the launch point's prevailing winds.

But otherwise, even if one plans to "land near a road to the WSW" , one is still going to trespass on someone's land.... near a road to the WSW.

So do commercial balloon operations try to land in particular fields on a regular basis, when doing passenger flights? Educate me.

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billvon

>Balloons in general do effectively have this weird system where they are 99% likely to
>trespass when on a flight, just that whose land gets trespassed on, is a bit random.

99%? Around here the balloon operators can often land within a few hundred yards of their planned destination - usually an empty field as close as possible to a road. I have absolutely no idea how they do it - and am in awe of that ability - but they do it consistently, so it's not luck.

I'd believe something like 20%, based purely on observation from the regular coastal flights we see here.



Sure, but are they landing on property they own or where they have permission 99% of the time? Even if the answer is no, I'm sure there are places in the desert southwest where no one cares or the owners are somewhere greener. It would still be intentional trespass but without anyone complaining for whatever reason it would seem A-O.K.

My office has great views of the Oregon wine country, across the valley to the west. In half an hour when it is light enough I'll see one or two rise and drift away, sometimes several, from the launch point 20 miles away. I can see how far North or South they travel but can only guess at how far east or west based on winds. They own a lot of land or have a lot of friends. For sure, from what I hear, they are a squared away outfit and they get great reviews. They must have it worked out somehow.

Another Balloon Company on the east side is very open about Balloon Trespass to where they publish this on their website:

Quote

Landowners

Landowners are as important to the operations of I'll Fly Away Balloon team as the crew is. Remember, even if you do not ever crew for another balloon again, good landowner relations is essential to the future of ballooning.

Balloons typically don't land just at airports. Landing and launches from private property are common and it is important to respect the property of others. In the ideal situation of landing on private property, the chase crew will have found and asked permission of the land owner prior to landing and will have reported this information by radio to the pilot. Very often this is not the case, since the pilot may have to make the landing before all this happens. Be extremely courteous and inform the landowner that your crew would like permission to land and recover the balloon. Assure them that you will exercise caution to protect their property and ask (if possible) if the recovery vehicle can drive to the balloon. If the balloon has landed in crops or is in an inaccessible area, the balloon system may need to be carried out. Be careful where you step as farmers count on their crops for their livelihood.

Most landowners don't mind having balloons land on their property, provided care was taken not to produce damage. In that regard, never drive onto private property without permission first. Also, be aware that on-lookers may want to follow you in. Only the recovery vehicle is needed. Keep everyone else out.

In a rare occasion when a landowner is upset about the landing, communicate this to the pilot discretely. The pilot may elect to fly on. If it is too late for that and you are faced with an upset landowner, do not argue with them. Indicate to the landowner that you will get the pilot and the pilot only will deal with the landowner. Remember that it is their land, and that you are trespassing!

Typically after the balloon is packed away and the landowners thanked, a celebration begins. Sparkling Cidar and soft drinks are served and shared with the landowners and crew to thank them for their help. New passengers are often inducted into the "Aeronaut" society. Tall stories are shared about previous flights and new stories are written of the recent adventure.

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>Sure, but are they landing on property they own or where they have permission 99% of the time?

No. Like I said, it's probably more like 80% of the time. I've only flown a few times with the operators here, but they start out with helium balloon launches to judge the wind, then look at a map with the places that they have permission to land marked, then (often) move their launch point accordingly. On all the flights I've done, they landed in their planned area.

There have been a few balloons that landed at a public park near me, which is legal unless the town passes a law against it. (Public property.) One balloon overshot the park, and they had the ground crew grab the balloon and pull it a block down the street until they could deflate it in the park.

There have been a few other balloons that landed in the canyon. That's a wildlife preserve and they're not supposed to land there, but the park rangers are generally OK with it.

To get back to the original poster's question, it's perfectly reasonable to launch a balloon and plan to exit either over a DZ, close enough to the DZ to make it back, or over a designated landing area. It won't always work out, of course, so you might have to deal with unhappy passengers who don't get to jump. (Or push the rules and get out knowing you can't make it back, then land out and say "hey, it happens sometimes.")

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flyhi

Quote

How does a tandem pair exit a balloon stable?



Probably not too common, but baskets like these would make it a little easier.



——————————————————————————-

That huge balloon basket would be easy for a tandem exit. It reminds of the three-baskets that the British, Belgian, etc. Armies used for decades - to train first static-line paratroopers.

OTOH most of the comments have focussed on the popular three-sided, wicker baskets seen on hot-air balloons. Their belly-high sides make tandem edits awkward.

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