riggerrob 598 #51 October 5, 2018 To understand why USPA requires a Class 3 aircrew medical, we have to look back 35 years to when Strong Enterprises and the Relative Workshop introduced tandem to the general public. They asked the FAA for a waiver to hang two people under one canopy. They based their waiver application on the - recently issued - FAA approval for ultralight pilots carrying passengers/students. The tandem manufacturers wrote tighter TI requirements than the FAA would have imposed. Manufacturers have always required TI to train with factory-approved Tandem Examiners. UPT wanted to get out of the expensive process of re-certifying TIs every year, so they asked USPA to take over ..... as is done in many other countries. In many European countries, TIs are certified by the national parachute association. Since Strong was not willing to hand over responsibility, we ended up with the current compromise. USPA continued the requirement for Class 3 medical because it has worked well for many years ..... low fatality rate. SECOND POINT the OP needs to grow a sense of humour and learn to recognize sarcasm on the internet (e.g. gun-free zone). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeeroyJenkins 2 #52 October 5, 2018 QuoteAs a person with operational control, I pledge to: • Comply with the USPA Basic Safety Requirements (BSRs), which include compliance with the Federal Aviation Regulations relevant to skydiving operations, including aircraft operations. • Ensure that all pilots employed or utilized for the purpose of parachute operations hold at least a commercial pilot certificate and a second-class medical certificate. • Ensure that all aircraft utilized for the purpose of parachute operations comply with commercial maintenance requirements described in FAR Part 91.409(a) through (f) as applicable. • Ensure skydiving staff of the Group Member are appropriately qualified and trained in accordance with the SIM and (where applicable) hold current USPA ratings commensurate with their duties. • Establish landing procedures that will include separation of high-speed and normal landings. These landing procedures must be prominently displayed and communicated to all jumpers at the drop zone. • Support USPA promotional programs at the drop zone. • Require introductory or regular individual USPA membership of: 1. all licensed U.S. skydivers (a skydiver is considered a student until licensed) 2. non-resident foreign nationals who do not have proof of membership in their national aeroclub. • Include USPA and manufacturers, distributors and dealers of skydive equipment in the Group Member hold-harmless release, consistent with state laws. (New applicants, please provide a copy of the waiver with this application.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mbohu 77 #53 October 5, 2018 I don't have much to say about the main topic itself but: Quote I wager if you polled 100 whuffos whether they would prefer to jump at a USPA sanctioned DZ or a non USPA DZ, if costs were equal, a large percentage would opt for the USPA option. I wonder: I doubt that USPA sanctioned has much of any meaning to whuffos signing up for Tandems or even a first jump course. I have to admit that, when I did my tandems decades ago, I had no idea what USPA was. Looking back, and knowing more about the complexity of tandem systems, I wonder what made me trust that this was all ok. But even a few years ago, when I signed up for the first jump course I knew nothing about USPA and member dropzones. I found that out as I progressed towards my A License and I'm pretty sure (and have anecdotal evidence) that this is so for most jumpers. If being a member dropzone was such a selling-point for whuffos it would be big on all the tandem ads. It isn't. If there is a safety advantage, I believe it's more for us regular jumpers, and in regards to whuffos, it's an advantage to us if there are less accidents--because it helps the public perception of the sport. So if you polled the whuffos my guess is the most common answer would be: "what the heck is a USPA sanctioned DZ?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,243 #54 October 5, 2018 Hi mbohu, QuoteSo if you polled the whuffos my guess is the most common answer would be: "what the heck is a USPA sanctioned DZ?" I would like to disagree; they would say, 'What is USPA?' Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 598 #55 October 5, 2018 ******As a person with operational control, I pledge to: • Comply with the USPA Basic Safety Requirements (BSRs), which include compliance with the Federal Aviation Regulations .... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisD2.0 2 #56 October 5, 2018 JerryBaumchenHi mbohu, QuoteSo if you polled the whuffos my guess is the most common answer would be: "what the heck is a USPA sanctioned DZ?" I would like to disagree; they would say, 'What is USPA?' Jerry Baumchen Hi Jerry,... Right about now the FAA and NTSB are asking the same question. Trust me, they read these pages. And as ambassadors of skydiving, many here and their inane speculation, have hurt us all.Brett Bickford Did Not Commit Suicide. He is the victim of ignorance and faulty gear. AND as in the movie: "12 Angry Men," of an ignorant and callous jury. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,072 #57 October 5, 2018 QuoteTrust me, they read these pages. And as ambassadors of skydiving, many here and their inane speculation, have hurt us all. Or they have helped us all....... Hiding the facts of the matter is not really helping anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 9 #58 October 5, 2018 I have answered you several times. If you don’t like that answer, that is not my fault. Simply put, the USPA could revoke group membership of DZ’s that have been found in violation of FARs... They don’t do that. Save the psycobable, you have made comments about me, not my positions ‘this is 2018, keep up’ is not a comment about my position and you know it. You have used several logical fallacies, mainly strawman and ad hominem, and if you wished to have a real discussion, you would have stopped doing that. The USPA provides an illusion that the GM program is more than just some silly pledge... And the USPA does not even act when they KNOW the DZ is violating FAR’s. But if all you are going to do is attack me, and ignore all of my points... You clearly are less interested in any type of discussion on the points and just interested in arguing. Basically bring points or this is my last time trying to engage in discussion with someone who is either unable, or unwilling."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeeroyJenkins 2 #59 October 5, 2018 QuoteI have answered you several times. If you don’t like that answer, that is not my fault. Insufficient, you still have not shown where the USPA guarantees that DZ are safe. QuoteSimply put, the USPA could revoke group membership of DZ’s that have been found in violation of FARs... They don’t do that. Sure they could. QuoteSave the psycobable, you have made comments about me, not my positions ‘this is 2018, keep up’ is not a comment about my position and you know it. The "psycobable" is accurate. You got me, I made a quip about you conflating points. Quote You have used several logical fallacies, mainly strawman and ad hominem, and if you wished to have a real discussion, you would have stopped doing that. You confusing points is not an ad hominem and the strawman you think I used is because again you were confusing points. QuoteThe USPA provides an illusion that the GM program is more than just some silly pledge... And the USPA does not even act when they KNOW the DZ is violating FAR’s. Maybe they provide that illusion in your opinion. I don't believe that and anyone that reads the pledge can see that they do not guarantee safety. Quote But if all you are going to do is attack me, and ignore all of my points... You clearly are less interested in any type of discussion on the points and just interested in arguing. Just because you feel like a victim doesn't mean you are one. I am attacking your views. Not you. I don't even know you, your just some dude named Ron that quit skydiving because he hates the USPA so much. QuoteBasically bring points or this is my last time trying to engage in discussion with someone who is either unable, or unwilling. The only point I'm making at this point is one that refutes your belief that the USPA has some duty to posts details about a TI fatality on DZ.com. They Don't. The other point I was refuting you provided some context too and now its irrelevant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 127 #60 October 5, 2018 QuoteThe only point I'm making at this point is one that refutes your belief that the USPA has some duty to posts details about a TI fatality on DZ.com. He never said anything of the sort.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 127 #61 October 5, 2018 mbohu I don't have much to say about the main topic itself but: Quote I wager if you polled 100 whuffos whether they would prefer to jump at a USPA sanctioned DZ or a non USPA DZ, if costs were equal, a large percentage would opt for the USPA option. I wonder: I doubt that USPA sanctioned has much of any meaning to whuffos signing up for Tandems or even a first jump course. I have to admit that, when I did my tandems decades ago, I had no idea what USPA was. Looking back, and knowing more about the complexity of tandem systems, I wonder what made me trust that this was all ok. But even a few years ago, when I signed up for the first jump course I knew nothing about USPA and member dropzones. I found that out as I progressed towards my A License and I'm pretty sure (and have anecdotal evidence) that this is so for most jumpers. If being a member dropzone was such a selling-point for whuffos it would be big on all the tandem ads. It isn't. If there is a safety advantage, I believe it's more for us regular jumpers, and in regards to whuffos, it's an advantage to us if there are less accidents--because it helps the public perception of the sport. So if you polled the whuffos my guess is the most common answer would be: "what the heck is a USPA sanctioned DZ?" I would expect the pollster would explain who/what USPA stands for in their questionnaire. Something like: "Would you prefer, if given a choice, to jump at a dropzone sanctioned by the US Parachute Association, or at one that is not so sanctioned/ independent from USPA?" Simple Yes or No answer required.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeeroyJenkins 2 #62 October 5, 2018 obelixtimQuoteThe only point I'm making at this point is one that refutes your belief that the USPA has some duty to posts details about a TI fatality on DZ.com. He never said anything of the sort. You probably missed all the deleted comments from the original incident thread. He said that multiple times. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 127 #63 October 5, 2018 LeeroyJenkins***QuoteThe only point I'm making at this point is one that refutes your belief that the USPA has some duty to posts details about a TI fatality on DZ.com. He never said anything of the sort. You probably missed all the deleted comments from the original incident thread. He said that multiple times. Yeah, I did miss quite a few. Its annoying when threads are wrecked like that. Generally I give up on those discussions when that happens, because there is no point in them when context is destroyed like that. Its no longer a discussion. Defeats the purpose really.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeeroyJenkins 2 #64 October 5, 2018 obelixtim******QuoteThe only point I'm making at this point is one that refutes your belief that the USPA has some duty to posts details about a TI fatality on DZ.com. He never said anything of the sort. You probably missed all the deleted comments from the original incident thread. He said that multiple times. Yeah, I did miss quite a few. Its annoying when threads are wrecked like that. Generally I give up on those discussions when that happens, because there is no point in them when context is destroyed like that. Its no longer a discussion. Defeats the purpose really. Apparently Ron really, really, really hates the USPA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 127 #65 October 5, 2018 LeeroyJenkins*********QuoteThe only point I'm making at this point is one that refutes your belief that the USPA has some duty to posts details about a TI fatality on DZ.com. He never said anything of the sort. You probably missed all the deleted comments from the original incident thread. He said that multiple times. Yeah, I did miss quite a few. Its annoying when threads are wrecked like that. Generally I give up on those discussions when that happens, because there is no point in them when context is destroyed like that. Its no longer a discussion. Defeats the purpose really. Apparently Ron really, really, really hates the USPA. I doubt that very much. USPA is too toothless to engender that sort of emotion. Disappointed might be more accurate, and in that, I'm sure he's not alone.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeeroyJenkins 2 #66 October 5, 2018 obelixtim************QuoteThe only point I'm making at this point is one that refutes your belief that the USPA has some duty to posts details about a TI fatality on DZ.com. He never said anything of the sort. He claimed to quit jumping because of the USPA. Hate is the adjective I chose to describe that. You probably missed all the deleted comments from the original incident thread. He said that multiple times. Yeah, I did miss quite a few. Its annoying when threads are wrecked like that. Generally I give up on those discussions when that happens, because there is no point in them when context is destroyed like that. Its no longer a discussion. Defeats the purpose really. Apparently Ron really, really, really hates the USPA. I doubt that very much. USPA is too toothless to engender that sort of emotion. Disappointed might be more accurate, and in that, I'm sure he's not alone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisD2.0 2 #67 October 18, 2018 RonQuoteThat's how USPA often works. OK so you approve of a BOD member telling the membership to call about a fatality. ***In any case, I thought you were no longer a USPA member. I'm not. In part because of BS like this. But you know I am still allowed to voice an opinion without the USPA membership... Right? Ya forgot about a few "other" things as well Ron: Ya forgot about how the USPA is riddled with conflicts of interest regarding the Board as a whole. Ya forgot how this conflict of interest makes their decisions for their membership a joke. Ya forgot how a conflict of interest means as skydivers forced to belong to this organization, means that skydivers are NOT represented. Ya forgot how this suicide thing deflects, obfuscates, and ignores the real cause of this tragedy. Ya forgot that there are a huge number of "interested" parties with large amounts of cash and pressure to "spin" their opinions to protect their monetary interests and preserve the cash interests of a few owners. Ya forgot Ron that your part of the problem. Ya forgot Ron that skydiving is now led by those cash interests at the expense of skydiving as a whole. Ya Forgot Ron, that skydiving is an exclusive club of Tandem operators that will do anything to preserve their amusement park mentality at the expense of skydiving. Ya forgot Ron about this insane naming insurance fraud bullcrap game with the FAA to avoid part 135 fees by naming tandem passengers "students" so that a few can profit greatly. This alone, Sanctioned by Your USPA is a lie, scam, and con that has been going on for too long. This alone speaks volumes about the USPA's motives. Ya forgot that the USPA threw every skydiving real, student under the bus when they backdoor'd the recent BSR changes so that a few high profile board members could line their wind tunnel pockets with more cash by their "opinions" that support windtunels at the expense of an established safety program. This is the current mindset of our USPA. This is why conflicts of interest are what's driving this inane suicide rumor that so many want to attribute to the cause, when in fact we do have dangerous equipment out there that needs to be redesigned, again. Ya forgot Ron that the only FACT that will come out of any alleged investigation, is that there isn't going to be any facts to come out of this investigation. And ya forgot that anyone who hangs their hat on that subject alone is either an idiot, or someone who hasn't been around for very long. It has to be one of the most ignorant comments I've seen yet. Ya also forgot Ron is the fact that more than 90% of those on this site are either internet addicts, or have multiple user names, or have a vested interest in their own cash supply. Try not to forget the power of what it means when I say the skydiving industry, the USPA , and this site are all for some individuals private money making machine,....AT THE EXPENSE OF SKYDIVING AS A WHOLE.Brett Bickford Did Not Commit Suicide. He is the victim of ignorance and faulty gear. AND as in the movie: "12 Angry Men," of an ignorant and callous jury. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeeroyJenkins 2 #68 October 18, 2018 QuoteYa forgot about how the USPA is riddled with conflicts of interest regarding the Board as a whole. How/what? QuoteYa forgot how a conflict of interest means as skydivers forced to belong to this organization, means that skydivers are NOT represented. How/Why? QuoteYa forgot how this suicide thing deflects, obfuscates, and ignores the real cause of this tragedy. What is the real cause? QuoteYa forgot Ron that skydiving is now led by those cash interests at the expense of skydiving as a whole. What? QuoteYa forgot that the USPA threw every skydiving real, student under the bus when they backdoor'd the recent BSR changes so that a few high profile board members could line their wind tunnel pockets with more cash by their "opinions" that support windtunels at the expense of an established safety program. This is the current mindset of our USPA. This is why conflicts of interest are what's driving this inane suicide rumor that so many want to attribute to the cause, when in fact we do have dangerous equipment out there that needs to be redesigned, again. Needs clarification. QuoteYa also forgot Ron is the fact that more than 90% of those on this site are either internet addicts, or have multiple user names, or have a vested interest in their own cash supply. Try not to forget the power of what it means when I say the skydiving industry, the USPA , and this site are all for some individuals private money making machine,....AT THE EXPENSE OF SKYDIVING AS A WHOLE. Proof? How? There are a lot of claims in there that need explaining and further proof. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,072 #69 October 18, 2018 QuoteYa Forgot Ron, that skydiving is an exclusive club of Tandem operators that will do anything to preserve their amusement park mentality at the expense of skydiving. There is a lot of truth in this part of your post. The sport of skydiving is now largely dominated by the tandem business in a lot of places. It is where the bulk of the profit comes from and it is clearly driving decisions made by USPA at the top level. Making tandem procedures BSRs is the most ridiculous and pandering thing USPA has ever done. And it exposes the amount of influence manufactures have. Even over DZOs who used to have the most power. Recreational skydivers come a distant third in today's USPA. Money talks, bullshit walks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeeroyJenkins 2 #70 October 18, 2018 gowlerkQuoteYa Forgot Ron, that skydiving is an exclusive club of Tandem operators that will do anything to preserve their amusement park mentality at the expense of skydiving. There is a lot of truth in this part of your post. The sport of skydiving is now largely dominated by the tandem business in a lot of places. It is where the bulk of the profit comes from and it is clearly driving decisions made by USPA at the top level. Making tandem procedures BSRs is the most ridiculous and pandering thing USPA has ever done. And it exposes the amount of influence manufactures have. Even over DZOs who used to have the most power. Recreational skydivers come a distant third in today's USPA. Money talks, bullshit walks. Gotta subsidies the fun jumps somehow. No tandems, no skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,072 #71 October 18, 2018 QuoteGotta subsidies the fun jumps somehow. No tandems, no skydiving. I agree, but there is a flip side. No sport jumpers, no new TIs. Finding enough TIs is a problem for most DZs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeeroyJenkins 2 #72 October 18, 2018 gowlerkQuoteGotta subsidies the fun jumps somehow. No tandems, no skydiving. I agree, but there is a flip side. No sport jumpers, no new TIs. Finding enough TIs is a problem for most DZs. I don't think there is a shortage of sport jumpers, I suspect its more people that don't want to get burnt out. I am a weekend warrior TI and it is a struggle to work 7 days a week. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,072 #73 October 18, 2018 Yes, true. But where do TIs come from? Around here they all came out of several years of being recreational sport jumpers. All our TIs here are weekend warriors. It's a weekend DZ, like most small operations. We don't have that much burn out. It's more like aging out. But we are not a tandem mill either. Our focus is fun jumping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeeroyJenkins 2 #74 October 18, 2018 gowlerkYes, true. But where do TIs come from? Around here they all came out of several years of being recreational sport jumpers. All our TIs here are weekend warriors. It's a weekend DZ, like most small operations. We don't have that much burn out. It's more like aging out. But we are not a tandem mill either. Our focus is fun jumping. My DZ has an ok balance. When all the TI are here but that is rare. I do a lot of other stuff so it would be nice to have 1 day on/of each weekend. It just takes a lot of time. Luckily its good money to buy gear I never get to use. lol . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisD2.0 2 #75 October 18, 2018 this idea that without tandems,... "Gotta subsidies the fun jumps somehow. No tandems, no skydiving." I hear this line every week, mostly from individuals that haven't been around long,.... Sorry man, this simply isn't true. This is the bullshite , con, that the USPA and many Dz's want you to believe. It's too bad that so many buy into this.Brett Bickford Did Not Commit Suicide. He is the victim of ignorance and faulty gear. AND as in the movie: "12 Angry Men," of an ignorant and callous jury. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
