DJL 232 #26 October 4, 2018 You know this happened one time, right? This is a pretty small bone to pick if your gripe is how USPA handles things."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,689 #27 October 4, 2018 >You would think they would want to communicate that info to all the other instructors >they certified. You know, instead of a USPA BOD member telling the membership to do the >work. That's how USPA often works. The reason there is a requirement in the group pledge to separate landing areas, for example, was because of the work Molly Osborne did the work to get it there. And she's just a plain old member. And that's a good thing IMO. In any case, I thought you were no longer a USPA member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeeroyJenkins 2 #28 October 4, 2018 RonQuoteAs you can see you implied that the class three should have prevented this Nope, try reading it again... I said the USPA requires an FAA medical. ***If you didn't imply that the entire premise of your question about the USPA wouldn't make sense Nonsense. It makes perfect sense if you realize that I think most of what the USPA does is a joke. They demand at least a class three medical but the FAA does not care about a medical for skydiving - UPT does and forced the USPA to make TI's have one. Pointing out the guy had a medical is pointing out it DIDN'T work... So why is the USPA demanding it? And what are they going to do about the situation if the medical clearly didn't stop anything. QuoteMy claim about gun signs is not baseless. It is because: 1. This has nothing to do with guns. 2. Maybe you should read my sig line. QuoteIt is based in you implying that a class three should have prevented this. Again, not what I said at all. Maybe what you wanted to think I typed... But not what I actually did type. QuoteI agree class three is dumb but its a good CYA for the UPSA, FAA, and DZO It only protects the manufacturer. Maybe you should read up on when TI's were "certified" the rig maker. They didn't want to do it so they begged the USPA to take it over. But they demanded the USPA keep the medical. USPA caved and bowed to the manufactures wishes over the membership. Quoteand you should be more clear on what you want instead of just ranting. Maybe you should read what was written and not what you wanted it to say. QuoteSo yeah, Ron, again, chill. It's one incident, information will come out, and when it does you can comment on it all you want. Right now your in the category of "old man yells at cloud." Just relax. Yep, more trying to play me and not the topic... You try to claim about people using bad logic, you might want to read up on Ad hominem. I'm sigma and Strong certified and use both regularly. I have a class 3 and I still am not worried about the outcome of this incident. I know what you wrote. I see you moving goalposts and that's it fine. I know I am not the only one that can clearly see it. QuoteIt makes perfect sense if you realize that I think most of what the USPA does is a joke. Not included in any statement you previously made, it's irrelevant to your statement. Your argument and your attitude are different things. Both are shown to bad in this thread. One doesn't make the other bad. You do that on your own. But thanks you for providing the context as to why you're such a hostile poster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,075 #29 October 4, 2018 QuoteNope, try reading it again... I said the USPA requires an FAA medical. I got my Tandem Rating from UPT in Canada. USPA had no involvement. I had to get a TC 3rd class medical for UPT. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 409 #30 October 4, 2018 RonQuoteRon - are you ever done trying to pick fights? Trying to play me? I was just asking why a USPA BOD member was telling members to do the job of the USPA. Don't blame me you don't like me pointing that out. BTW, your trying to insult me has ZERO impact. Shame the USPA BOD has to insult individuals. I wasn't telling anyone to do USPA's job. As I explained, USPA officials are already on the case conducting an investigation in cooperation with other authorities. BTW, having the opinion that you are trying to pick fights is not an insult, it is an observation. I am entitled to my opinion and you are entitled to yours, so let's just leave it at that. If you would like to continue this conversation I suggest we take it to private messages and let this thread get back on track.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #31 October 4, 2018 DJLYou know this happened one time, right? This is a pretty small bone to pick if your gripe is how USPA handles things. More than just this issue. The USPA gave 150K to the museum. The USPA caved to UPT about pull altitudes. The USPA caved to UPT on 3rd class medicals. The USPA started to fund a demo team that would 100% compete against USPA members. The USPA "approves" DZ to be GM with FAR violations. Starting to see the point?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #32 October 4, 2018 QuoteThat's how USPA often works. OK so you approve of a BOD member telling the membership to call about a fatality. QuoteIn any case, I thought you were no longer a USPA member. I'm not. In part because of BS like this. But you know I am still allowed to voice an opinion without the USPA membership... Right?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #33 October 4, 2018 QuoteI'm sigma and Strong certified and use both regularly. I have a class 3 and I still am not worried about the outcome of this incident. I was both as well and hold a class 1. You seem to be ignoring the point. Arguing against a position I never made (read up on "strawman"). QuoteBut thanks you for providing the context as to why you're such a hostile poster. And again, you attack me... Still have not read up on Ad hominem, huh? Hey Bill... I thought attacking the person was against the rules?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,689 #34 October 4, 2018 >OK so you approve of a BOD member telling the membership to call about a fatality. I am fine with a BOD member making that suggestion, yes. >I'm not (a USPA member.) Probably a good decision for you. But it also means that you don't have a dog in this fight, so all the outrage and fury rings a little hollow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #35 October 4, 2018 Quote But it also means that you don't have a dog in this fight, so all the outrage and fury rings a little hollow. Not paying an organization that you disagree with, giving up your ratings, and not jumping anymore in protest/frustration is an EMPTY gesture in your mind? Seems to me it is more honorable that being a sheep and disagreeing but still sending in your money so they can give it away and making false promises about them ensuring DZ's are safe. But hey, I never understood you."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeeroyJenkins 2 #36 October 5, 2018 RonQuoteI'm sigma and Strong certified and use both regularly. I have a class 3 and I still am not worried about the outcome of this incident. I was both as well and hold a class 1. You seem to be ignoring the point. Arguing against a position I never made (read up on "strawman"). ***But thanks you for providing the context as to why you're such a hostile poster. And again, you attack me... Still have not read up on Ad hominem, huh? Hey Bill... I thought attacking the person was against the rules? Ron, I'm not attacking you personally. I now see that your issue is with the entire USPA. Its an observation. As for you quitting skydiving. I'm sure the pebble you threw into the ocean really mattered. For an Ad hominem I would have to disregard your argument because of you as a person. I am not doing that. I am pointing out that you have a hostile attitude and that is why your posts clearly have a hostile tone regardless of their content. I'm making two separate points simultaneously in one post. Its 2018, keep up. I guess I can clarify. What is your exact point regarding this TI fatality that you want to make? QuoteSeems to me it is more honorable that being a sheep and disagreeing but still sending in your money so they can give it away and making false promises about them ensuring DZ's are safe. Ron, how exactly does the USPA promise that its DZ's are safe? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #37 October 5, 2018 QuoteRon, I'm not attacking you personally.....I'm sure the pebble you threw into the ocean really mattered....Its 2018, keep up. You just contradicted yourself in the same post. QuoteWhat is your exact point regarding this TI fatality that you want to make? That the USPA needs to make a statement. A high profile death and they are silent. Secondly that the requirement for an FAA medical is stupid and is bowing to manufacturers and not supporting the membership. Quote Ron, how exactly does the USPA promise that its DZ's are safe? Group member program. Yet all the DZ has to do is sign a pledge. There are SEVERAL DZ's that have had FAA action against them for not following FAR's and are still group members."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,689 #38 October 5, 2018 >Not paying an organization that you disagree with, giving up your ratings, and not >jumping anymore in protest/frustration is an EMPTY gesture in your mind? When I have a problem with USPA, I go to them and try to fix it. It often works. Sometimes it doesn't. When you have a problem with USPA, you quit, then bitch about it on the Internet. And that bitching is quite empty after you quit, yes. I guess we have different ways of doing things. >But hey, I never understood you. Clearly. You picture yourself as a strong sheepdog and not a sheep because you . . . . complain and run away. If that works for you, great. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dninness 4 #39 October 5, 2018 so you want the USPA to .. issue a statement ... about the individual actions... of one TI? Is that what I'm reading? Do you also want your state's DMV to issue a statement every time someone causes a DUI fatality? Do you want the FAA to issue a statement every time a pilot makes a mistake (individually, not systemicly) and crashes a plane? Let the investigation play out before you start demanding action based on little, no, or incorrect information that we have here. BTW, and this sort of reinforces your point: I know a number of pilots who have First Class medicals because they're airline pilots and I'm pretty sure they have undiagnosed, or at least untreated, mental illnesses. Bipolar disorder, depression, etc. Why would they not admit such? Because to do so would jeopardize their livelihood. So a guy who wants to keep hucking drogues for a living smiles and checks "none" under "depression" on the form. Otherwise its time to find another line of work. Not a real good way to prevent that from happening. Nor is there a real good way to prevent this incident from happening, if what is postulated did indeed occur, without, say, mandating a "two-man" rule. Lets watch while Bill Booth invents the side-by-side instructor (pilot/co-pilot) tandem system, for just such an emergency. Right. 14,000 posts on DZ.com tells me you have a lot of time and energy on your hands, and you like an audience. 20+ years on internet forums, I've seen the type. Lots of opinions, love to tell everybody how it is and how its going to be. Never mind things like information, data and facts. Pass.NIN D-19617, AFF-I '19 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,075 #40 October 5, 2018 Quote14,000 posts on DZ.com tells me you have a lot of time and energy on your hands, and you like an audience. Closing in on 15,000. Is there a ceremony for that? Too many for a pie. Maybe a bottle of the finest when he achieves his milestone! Of course he'll never catch up to Bill V. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeeroyJenkins 2 #41 October 5, 2018 RonQuoteRon, I'm not attacking you personally.....I'm sure the pebble you threw into the ocean really mattered....Its 2018, keep up. You just contradicted yourself in the same post. ***What is your exact point regarding this TI fatality that you want to make? That the USPA needs to make a statement. A high profile death and they are silent. Secondly that the requirement for an FAA medical is stupid and is bowing to manufacturers and not supporting the membership. Quote Ron, how exactly does the USPA promise that its DZ's are safe? Group member program. Yet all the DZ has to do is sign a pledge. There are SEVERAL DZ's that have had FAA action against them for not following FAR's and are still group members. Lol, Ron, that isn’t an insult. It’s a statement of fact. You quitting the USPA has no effect. There were no ripples created from it. It’s also a fact you you are conflating two points I’m making. It’s one death that is barley going to make a blip on the news. So were does the USPA promise to ensure that the DZ is safe? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 127 #42 October 5, 2018 Not replying to you in particular, but: Post numbers, or whether a person has quit the sport and given up ratings does not mean he is not entitled to an opinion. Disagreeing with a pov is OK, but I am seeing Ron being told his opinion doesn't count any more, or his points are no longer valid. Which to me, seems to be a personal attack on his credibility, and the validity of his points. Which, as we are often reminded, is a no no. But which seems to be OK in selected cases. DZ.com needs to make a rule that you have to be a current jumper to contribute, otherwise go elsewhere. Because that's what DZ.com is coming to. Its no wonder that many experienced jumpers with useful opinions to the skydiving community have quit this site.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeeroyJenkins 2 #43 October 5, 2018 QuoteDisagreeing with a pov is OK, but I am seeing Ron being told his opinion doesn't count any more, or his points are no longer valid. I'm saying his points aren't valid period. I don't even know who he was when I criticized his first point and still don't know who he is. Frankly, I don't care who he is because it's irrelevant. Never in my short skydiving career have I ever assumed that the USPA promised that the member DZ were guaranteed safe. That's an outrageous claim. All the group member agreement says is what they should do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 127 #44 October 5, 2018 LeeroyJenkinsQuoteDisagreeing with a pov is OK, but I am seeing Ron being told his opinion doesn't count any more, or his points are no longer valid. I'm saying his points aren't valid period. I don't even know who he was when I criticized his first point and still don't know who he is. Frankly, I don't care who he is because it's irrelevant. Never in my short skydiving career have I ever assumed that the USPA promised that the member DZ were guaranteed safe. That's an outrageous claim. All the group member agreement says is what they should do. No one can guarantee safety when it comes to skydiving. However, a DZ that is "endorsed" by USPA has an implied (to the unwashed public anyway) code of practice/set of standards that creates an impression (whether that is true or not) that a USPA DZ operates to a higher standard than others that are not USPA members. I wager if you polled 100 whuffos whether they would prefer to jump at a USPA sanctioned DZ or a non USPA DZ, if costs were equal, a large percentage would opt for the USPA option. The reality, of course, is USPA is so hands off, such perceptions are virtually worthless. I think Ron, not unreasonably, expects better. In this particular case, There isn't very much USPA could do or say anyway. Its impossible to legislate for someones state of mind.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #45 October 5, 2018 billvon When I have a problem with USPA, I go to them and try to fix it. It often works. Sometimes it doesn't. When you have a problem with USPA, you quit, then bitch about it on the Internet. And that bitching is quite empty after you quit, yes. I guess we have different ways of doing things. >But hey, I never understood you. Clearly. You picture yourself as a strong sheepdog and not a sheep because you . . . . complain and run away. If that works for you, great. Love the fact a mod gets to attack me. You think I have NOT tried to fight the stupidity from inside the system? You know that is a lie since you and I BOTH tried to work on canopy control issues. Of course you know it is a lie, but took the cheep shot anyway."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #46 October 5, 2018 Quoteso you want the USPA to .. issue a statement ... about the individual actions... of one TI? Is that what I'm reading? Do you also want your state's DMV to issue a statement every time someone causes a DUI fatality? (The police do, and regretably this is not an uncommon occurrence, as of yet, we still have zero information). Do you want the FAA to issue a statement every time a pilot makes a mistake (individually, not systemicly) and crashes a plane? (You know they do that, right) Quote14,000 posts on DZ.com ..... And you started pretty decently, then you went petty and started to try and play the player and not the ball. Quote Never mind things like information, data and facts. Except I am asking for information, data , and facts and YOU are the one telling me to stop asking. You contradict yourself, you claim I am the one to tell everyone how it has to go... But I am asking for data and YOU are the one telling me what to do. QuotePass Responding to me is a funny way of passing. But I know your type as well. You accused me of the very thing that you are doing."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #47 October 5, 2018 QuoteSo were does the USPA promise to ensure that the DZ is safe? Read the post again. I answered this one already. Hell, you quoted it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 127 #48 October 5, 2018 QuoteLove the fact a mod gets to attack me. How could you be so naïve? Mods have their own set of rules.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 598 #49 October 5, 2018 Ron (OP) started on the wrong foot. The usual authorities: FAA, USPA and the rig manufacturer are doing their jobs: collecting facts, examine gear, interviewing witnesses, etc. Since suicides are difficult to explain, a USPA Board Member broadened the witness pool by asking for comments from friends and family. Police routinely de-brief friends and family. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeeroyJenkins 2 #50 October 5, 2018 RonQuoteSo were does the USPA promise to ensure that the DZ is safe? Read the post again. I answered this one already. Hell, you quoted it. Ron, promise and guarantee are absolutes. There is no way the USPA guarantees that their member dropzones are safe. They can guarantee they are members and they should* be following the safety rules but there is no way they can guarantee they are* following them. Also, attacking what you are saying is not attacking you. I know deeply held beliefs, when questioned can trigger the same part of the brain as self identity, but in this case we are attacking what your are saying. Not you personally. Anyway the USPA Certificate of Group Membership Signifies the affiliation and the pledge to comply with USPA's Basic Safety Requirements as well as applicable Federal Aviation Regulations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
