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DBCOOPER

Thread for "Checking in after jumps" (from Incidents)

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In 18 years I have only been to one DZ that had a protocol for checking in after every jump. Carolina Sky Sports gave you a laminated card when you waivered in, that had you name and weight on. When you went to manifest you gave them your card and after the jump you walked back to the building and your card would be in a rack. If you failed to get in a reasonable amount of time they would page you. Simple system, worked well, no extra personnel required. It was the system they had in place and everyone complied.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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What are you smoking? :S:S

There are precisely 0 posts on the front page of this forum about checking in after jumping. None. Zilch. Nada.

Even if there were, the fact that you simply haven't traveled enough to encounter the need wouldn't negate the need to talk about it anyway.


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yoink

What are you smoking? :S:S

There are precisely 0 posts on the front page of this forum about checking in after jumping. None. Zilch. Nada.

Even if there were, the fact that you simply haven't traveled enough to encounter the need wouldn't negate the need to talk about it anyway.



On the other hand, there is something in post #60 in this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4900232;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;.

--Mark

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DBCOOPER

Carolina Sky Sports gave you a laminated card when you waivered in, that had you name and weight on. When you went to manifest you gave them your card and after the jump you walked back to the building and your card would be in a rack.



Same worded in the coal mines. It was a simple brass tag. All it takes is effort.
Dano

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yoink


There are precisely 0 posts on the front page of this forum about checking in after jumping. None. Zilch. Nada.



A skydiver died in a field. Nobody at the DZ noticed that he hadn't returned from the jump. He was found the next day.

Again.



danornan

All it takes is effort.



Yes!
The question is offcourse, how much effort, and is it worth the benefit.

I am not sure about it, I just know that the effort, at least from a skydivers point of view, is a lot less than some people here seem to think.

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yoink

What are you smoking? :S:S

There are precisely 0 posts on the front page of this forum about checking in after jumping. None. Zilch. Nada.

Even if there were, the fact that you simply haven't traveled enough to encounter the need wouldn't negate the need to talk about it anyway.



The Colorado incident thread has gotten waaaaay off topic, with a couple of folks taking this part of it a bit far. Claims that 'it's happening more and more' (not true) or that 'the DZ doesn't care' (also not true) are being tossed about.

Phree used the title of this thread to try to get that one back on track.

There was also a fairly long discussion about it in the thread on the Russian at Perris.

It's a bit of a touchy subject.

For the rare times when it would be of benefit, it's a good idea.

For the rest of the time, the question is "Is it worth the effort?"

The CO incident is apparently the 5th in recent memory.

Houston, dude planned to land by his trailer. He was injured on landing, crawled a short distance from his gear before he died. Found the next day.

Byron, went in no-pull, found by the resident of the property he ended up on. Nobody knew he was missing.

Elsinore, wingsuiter who ended up landing in a really unusual place. Someone noticed the canopy on the ground after a few loads.

Perris, Russian solo jumper went in no pull. Nobody noticed he was missing, his wife started looking for him a few days later. Large SaR effort in the area came up empty, body was found a couple months later.

I don't know the details of the Elsinore incident, but a check in system would have had no effect on the overall outcome of the four others. In the Houston incident, the jumper had declared an 'out landing' for the last jump of the day, which he apparently did sometimes. In the Byron, Perris & Longmont incidents, the jumpers went in no pull. The only difference a check in system would have made is when the body was found (and maybe not in the Perris incident).

Would the time and effort of having a check in system on every load be worth it, given how rare this sort if thing is?

I don't think so. Some of the suggestions in the CO thread are pretty drastic. If I was told that I had to put money down and would lose it if I failed to check in after each jump, I'd likely go elsewhere to jump.

The larger DZs I jump at have an 'Air Boss', who's job it is to watch the sky. He (or she) knows how many jumpers are on each load and counts canopies. Cutaways or 'out landers' are spotted and chased after. I'm not sure what would happen if they came up a canopy short (someone going in no pull). I've never seen that happen.

In the event of jumpers landing off, there is an accounting of jumpers. They make sure that all jumpers on the load check in.
This can be done individually or by groups. I've gone to manifest and said "I'm back and so is 'X', 'Y' and 'Z' that were in the group with me.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Kind of funny how all the folks who were making a lot of noise over in the incidents thread have yet to show up here.

It's a subject certainly worth discussing.

I don't see it as necessary for normal operations, but I'm willing to listen to those who think otherwise (and have reasonable opinions and can state them that way).

Random thought: The 'missing' jumpers were all solo. I know there's usually a 'built in' check in for students (who do most of the solo jumps), in that they have to debrief with an instructor and get their stuff signed off.

For those that are insisting on a check in, how about just for solo jumpers? I can't think of any jump I made that didn't involve some sort of debrief on the ground after. Even if it was just a high-five and "That was FUN!!". But I was taught early on to make sure my entire group makes it back safely.

The one that is the outlier is the Byron incident. But only partly. I received some info on that one via PM (along with permission to post it), and apparently, the dead guy was planning a solo and found a couple new guys in the loading area and joined them.
If he had originally manifested as a solo, then a solo check in system would have caught his disappearance.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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I think if people were really interested in making sure someone knows where they are then they're individually responsible for setting up a buddy system with someone else. Everyone else knows the risk of landing out and being injured and can't expect the DZ to babysit their activities. As it is, people and DZ's are pretty good at spotting someone landing out and devote the necessary resources.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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wolfriverjoe



The larger DZs I jump at have an 'Air Boss', who's job it is to watch the sky. He (or she) knows how many jumpers are on each load and counts canopies. Cutaways or 'out landers' are spotted and chased after. I'm not sure what would happen if they came up a canopy short (someone going in no pull). I've never seen that happen.



This one time I was at a DZ when someone committed suicide by going in with no pulling. It was a very busy day so the DZ was flying two planes at the time. What with hop 'n pops, Tandem, AFF, Freefly, FS and full-altitude CReW all going on, people were landing every five minutes. Add some off-landings reporting back at Manifest into the mix and I am not surprised at all that nobody saw the no-pull go in.
Since that incident, check-in systems have become the norm for the medium-to-large DZs in the Netherlands. In my experience, people conform with no more grumbling than they do about any other aspect of the sport.
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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wolfriverjoe

Kind of funny how all the folks who were making a lot of noise over in the incidents thread have yet to show up here.

It's a subject certainly worth discussing.



That's cause our posts keep getting "modified."

You really wanta know why this kid died?


It's because no one gives a shite about the last solo / newbie on a load. Everyone else was just too fuckin busy to notice, same as at every DZ full of skygods out there. Simple.
Brett Bickford Did Not Commit Suicide.

He is the victim of ignorance and faulty gear. AND as in the movie: "12 Angry Men," of an ignorant and callous jury.

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This is common practice in the UK (along with flight-line checks, meaning that everyone on the load must be checked out and signed off by someone else before boarding the plane). It's no great hardship at all - just habit, once you get used to it, and it needn't be any real extra effort for the staff if you put the onus on the jumpers to follow the process.

Different DZs use different methods. Some have a touch-screen PC at the edge of the landing area so that you can just tap on your name to show that you're back safe.

My home dropzone simply has two additional columns next to each name on the printed manifest sheet, for the flight-line check and for signing back in respectively. The jumpmaster checks before the load walks out that everyone's flight-line check has been signed off, and then the manifest board is placed near the entrance to the packing area. When people come back from the load, they put a mark next to their name as they pass (and can put a mark next to the name of anyone else who they know for sure is back).

Dropzone management do take it seriously, and will bawl people out if they return to the packing shed without bothering to sign themselves in.

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ChrisD2.0

***Kind of funny how all the folks who were making a lot of noise over in the incidents thread have yet to show up here.

It's a subject certainly worth discussing.



That's cause our posts keep getting "modified."

You really wanta know why this kid died?


It's because no one gives a shite about the last solo / newbie on a load. Everyone else was just too fuckin busy to notice, same as at every DZ full of skygods out there. Simple.

Well, YOUR posts get deleted because they are inappropriate. Or just wrong.

This jumper was dead on impact. The exact reason isn't clear yet (or hasn't been made public).

The only thing a check in procedure would have changed is when the body was recovered.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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wolfriverjoe

******Kind of funny how all the folks who were making a lot of noise over in the incidents thread have yet to show up here.

It's a subject certainly worth discussing.



That's cause our posts keep getting "modified."

You really wanta know why this kid died?


It's because no one gives a shite about the last solo / newbie on a load. Everyone else was just too fuckin busy to notice, same as at every DZ full of skygods out there. Simple.

Well, YOUR posts get deleted because they are inappropriate. Or just wrong.

This jumper was dead on impact. The exact reason isn't clear yet (or hasn't been made public).

The only thing a check in procedure would have changed is when the body was recovered.



CHECKING IN OVER THE YEARS HAS SAVED LIVES.

THIS ISN'T A DEBATABLE POINT.
Brett Bickford Did Not Commit Suicide.

He is the victim of ignorance and faulty gear. AND as in the movie: "12 Angry Men," of an ignorant and callous jury.

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ChrisD2.0

*********Kind of funny how all the folks who were making a lot of noise over in the incidents thread have yet to show up here.

It's a subject certainly worth discussing.



That's cause our posts keep getting "modified."

You really wanta know why this kid died?


It's because no one gives a shite about the last solo / newbie on a load. Everyone else was just too fuckin busy to notice, same as at every DZ full of skygods out there. Simple.

Well, YOUR posts get deleted because they are inappropriate. Or just wrong.

This jumper was dead on impact. The exact reason isn't clear yet (or hasn't been made public).

The only thing a check in procedure would have changed is when the body was recovered.



CHECKING IN OVER THE YEARS HAS SAVED LIVES.


THIS ISN'T A DEBATABLE POINT.

Prove it.

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ChrisD2.0



CHECKING IN OVER THE YEARS HAS SAVED LIVES.

THIS ISN'T A DEBATABLE POINT.



You have said this before.

You say "Lives" (plural).

Name them.

You have said in other threads that this sort of thing is happening more and more.

I asked you to show evidence of this.

Silence from you.

There have been only a handful of these incidents over the years that I've been active on here.

I have named them (not jumpers names, but details of the incidents).

NONE OF THEM would have had a different outcome with a check in procedure.

So please identify where and when 'lives have been saved'.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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wolfriverjoe


So please identify where and when 'lives have been saved'.



You are not going to get an answer here, because incidents that almost happend don't get a lot of publicity.

You could instead ask: do we know of any fatalities where the person died because it took too much time for help to get to them? Because nobody went looking for them, since they weren't missed (yet)?
I would think that there must have been incidents like that, but to be honest I don't remember any so I could be wrong.

But besides avoiding fatalities, how do we feel about dead skydivers lying in a field for 9 days without anybody missing them? We had such an incident here in 2012.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=nl&sl=nl&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.omroepbrabant.nl%2Fnieuws%2F150954%2FParachutist-uit-Schijndel-ligt-negen-dagen-dood-in-weiland-Teuge

The DZO decided they did not like that, and implemented a check-in system. Another one followed a few years later when they changed from a C206 to a C208.

In the end the decision is about cost versus benefit. Cost in this case is not just money (almost nothing) but also the added hassle to skydivers and DZO.
I agree that the benefit is small.... but so is the cost, so why not?

Edit:
I would like to add that the incident I am referring to, turned out to be a suicide with none of the parachutes opened. I remember that before this information became available, there were rumours that the guy got injured at landing, and only died a lot later. Perhaps this helped the local acceptance of the check-in system more than I had realised.

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evh

***
So please identify where and when 'lives have been saved'.



You are not going to get an answer here, because incidents that almost happend don't get a lot of publicity.

You could instead ask: do we know of any fatalities where the person died because it took too much time for help to get to them? Because nobody went looking for them, since they weren't missed (yet)?
I would think that there must have been incidents like that, but to be honest I don't remember any so I could be wrong.

But besides avoiding fatalities, how do we feel about dead skydivers lying in a field for 9 days without anybody missing them? We had such an incident here in 2012.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=nl&sl=nl&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.omroepbrabant.nl%2Fnieuws%2F150954%2FParachutist-uit-Schijndel-ligt-negen-dagen-dood-in-weiland-Teuge

The DZO decided they did not like that, and implemented a check-in system. Another one followed a few years later when they changed from a C206 to a C208.

In the end the decision is about cost versus benefit. Cost in this case is not just money (almost nothing) but also the added hassle to skydivers and DZO.
I agree that the benefit is small.... but so is the cost, so why not?

Well, ChrisD (original & 2.0) has a habit of making these sorts of claims, without ever backing them up.

I'd be very interested in hearing either about injuries that would have been fatal (or just 'more serious') if there hadn't been some sort of check in, as in the person was found because of a check in system.
Or deaths that would have been prevented if there had been a check in.

The incidents I'm aware of would not have had a different outcome had there been a check in.

I am aware of situations where an 'outlander' was injured. But they had been observed from the ground, were chased down and retrieved. These were open canopies, not 'no pull' situations.

The 'body laying in a field' (or in someone's backyard) for an extended period of time is a very rare situation. Including the one you mention, I now know of six. In over a decade.
As I noted above, it requires a solo jump, nobody realizing the person is missing (not just people on the DZ) and a really unusual incident (going in 'clean' is pretty rare these days).

To reverse your question:

Is the benefit worth the cost?

Should everyone have to check in after every jump, just because of a 'one in a million' chance?

I don't see it.

I 'check in' with my group anytime I jump with one or more other people, which is by far the majority of my jumps.
If I don't show (or if anyone in my group is missing), we would notify DZ staff and start the process.

I could see the benefit of solo jumpers having some sort of check in. Not groups.

FWIW, a while back, at a very small club DZ, I did a really solo jump. The pilot was taking the plane in for maintenance and I was going to ride up to jump out before he headed over to the shop (at a different airport). Everyone else had left or was leaving. I asked someone to please stay until I landed, 'just in case'.

It would have been really bad to have a fairly simple landing issue (break an ankle in a hole) turn into something much more serious because there was nobody there to help. One person waited until I landed. She was actually sitting in her car, and pulled out the minute I gave her an "OK" wave after I landed.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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If it contributes to the discussion, I’ve jumped in 3 different continents with different systems, having stayed at least a couple of year at each DZ.

Busy boogie with lots of guest jumpers at a small DZ with no check-in system. A jumper landed off behind a dense line of trees parallel to the runway, but way off the DZ. Nobody noticed until he showed up 2 hours later. He joked about if he had a broken leg he would have died of hypothermia at night. We all thought it was funny.

Now I jump in the UK, where we have a gear check before boarding, a spotter, and a check-in system. As it was said on a previous post, having a a simple check-in system does not slow things down an it is not an onerous thing on the manifest, instructors or anybody.

But one thing remains a fact: people are reluctant to try new things and change their ways to prevent unforeseen events. I suggested the check-in system to the DZ I mentioned above, where that jumper landed off. They said it is not necessary because they never had a serious incident related to a missing jumper. I guess skydiving is just like the rest of the aviation industry. You need a serious accident to implement a new policy.
Rob Gallo
"To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield."

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wolfriverjoe

******
So please identify where and when 'lives have been saved'.



You are not going to get an answer here, because incidents that almost happend don't get a lot of publicity.

You could instead ask: do we know of any fatalities where the person died because it took too much time for help to get to them? Because nobody went looking for them, since they weren't missed (yet)?
I would think that there must have been incidents like that, but to be honest I don't remember any so I could be wrong.

But besides avoiding fatalities, how do we feel about dead skydivers lying in a field for 9 days without anybody missing them? We had such an incident here in 2012.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=nl&sl=nl&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.omroepbrabant.nl%2Fnieuws%2F150954%2FParachutist-uit-Schijndel-ligt-negen-dagen-dood-in-weiland-Teuge

The DZO decided they did not like that, and implemented a check-in system. Another one followed a few years later when they changed from a C206 to a C208.

In the end the decision is about cost versus benefit. Cost in this case is not just money (almost nothing) but also the added hassle to skydivers and DZO.
I agree that the benefit is small.... but so is the cost, so why not?

It would have been really bad to have a fairly simple landing issue (break an ankle in a hole) turn into something much more serious because there was nobody there to help. One person waited until I landed. She was actually sitting in her car, and pulled out the minute I gave her an "OK" wave after I landed.
Maybe bring a cell phone? Lots of skydivers carry them for landing out or getting injured.

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I don't really get where the problem of checking-in after a jump is and why people are arguing against it. E.g. tapping on a screen during walking back to the packing area, should be no biggie at all for everybody. Or what do I miss? I can say that we had some off landings and nobody really recognized sometimes.
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