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Bob_Church

Lord of the Flies, the real life version

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Remember when campuses and liberal groups were bastions of free speech. Well, it ain't the sixties any more. There are several groups of self appointed loud mouthed censors patrolling Athens looking for something to offend them and then going on the attack. You'll notice that they've skipped right past the question of whether it would matter if it was a swastika. No, they make the rules.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/local/nazi-flag-or-party-flag/article_d5f6ea5a-a6cc-11e7-8a3c-c79b8fabd944.html

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Bob_Church

Remember when campuses and liberal groups were bastions of free speech. Well, it ain't the sixties any more. There are several groups of self appointed loud mouthed censors patrolling Athens looking for something to offend them and then going on the attack. You'll notice that they've skipped right past the question of whether it would matter if it was a swastika. No, they make the rules.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/local/nazi-flag-or-party-flag/article_d5f6ea5a-a6cc-11e7-8a3c-c79b8fabd944.html




In the 6th or 7th grade when we were learning about the Constitution, I remember the quote, "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I've forgotten who it was attributed to but I've always taken it to be the essence of free speech.

Everyone has a right to have an opinion and shout it if they so desire. No matter how lamebrain it may be.
Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

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Niki1

***Remember when campuses and liberal groups were bastions of free speech. Well, it ain't the sixties any more. There are several groups of self appointed loud mouthed censors patrolling Athens looking for something to offend them and then going on the attack. You'll notice that they've skipped right past the question of whether it would matter if it was a swastika. No, they make the rules.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/local/nazi-flag-or-party-flag/article_d5f6ea5a-a6cc-11e7-8a3c-c79b8fabd944.html




In the 6th or 7th grade when we were learning about the Constitution, I remember the quote, "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I've forgotten who it was attributed to but I've always taken it to be the essence of free speech.

Everyone has a right to have an opinion and shout it if they so desire. No matter how lamebrain it may be.

Whenever I go to Chicago I work in a trip to Paragear. But when I mention Skokie to my student workers they don't see any significance to the place. These are the same students who want to enact more and more bans on what they term hate speech, which amounts to anything they disagree with. Student groups at Ohio University tried to get 'Trump 2016" labeled hate speech and banned last year.
Coincidence?

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The kids know exactly what they're doing. They're not making a stand for free speech, they're testing boundaries and continuing to slowly and subtly normalise extremist views.

The crap about the tiny detail in the flag being different so it's totally not meant to be the same thing and is innocent? Bullshit. The appropriate response to learning that the flag you're flying is basically the same that neo-nazis have been flying is "oh shit that's messed up, we'll get a better flag because nazis are scum", not engaging in smug semantics.

I normally try very hard to make room for opposing viewpoints and to steer clear of censorship, but fascists will never get a pass.
You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

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mistercwood

The kids know exactly what they're doing. They're not making a stand for free speech, they're testing boundaries and continuing to slowly and subtly normalise extremist views.

The crap about the tiny detail in the flag being different so it's totally not meant to be the same thing and is innocent? Bullshit. The appropriate response to learning that the flag you're flying is basically the same that neo-nazis have been flying is "oh shit that's messed up, we'll get a better flag because nazis are scum", not engaging in smug semantics.

I normally try very hard to make room for opposing viewpoints and to steer clear of censorship, but fascists will never get a pass.



Someone flying a "fascist" banner bothers me far less than someone thinking it's up to them to allow it or not.

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Bob_Church

***The kids know exactly what they're doing. They're not making a stand for free speech, they're testing boundaries and continuing to slowly and subtly normalise extremist views.

The crap about the tiny detail in the flag being different so it's totally not meant to be the same thing and is innocent? Bullshit. The appropriate response to learning that the flag you're flying is basically the same that neo-nazis have been flying is "oh shit that's messed up, we'll get a better flag because nazis are scum", not engaging in smug semantics.

I normally try very hard to make room for opposing viewpoints and to steer clear of censorship, but fascists will never get a pass.



Someone flying a "fascist" banner bothers me far less than someone thinking it's up to them to allow it or not.

Eventually you will come to realize that that you are either misguided or failed to understand the lessons of history. Limits on expression are far, far less egregious than fascism.

Either that or you have no idea of what fascism means.

Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

So thats worse than the thinking of some that a symbol should not be displayed!

Yikes.

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Phil1111

******The kids know exactly what they're doing. They're not making a stand for free speech, they're testing boundaries and continuing to slowly and subtly normalise extremist views.

The crap about the tiny detail in the flag being different so it's totally not meant to be the same thing and is innocent? Bullshit. The appropriate response to learning that the flag you're flying is basically the same that neo-nazis have been flying is "oh shit that's messed up, we'll get a better flag because nazis are scum", not engaging in smug semantics.

I normally try very hard to make room for opposing viewpoints and to steer clear of censorship, but fascists will never get a pass.



Someone flying a "fascist" banner bothers me far less than someone thinking it's up to them to allow it or not.

Eventually you will come to realize that that you are either misguided or failed to understand the lessons of history. Limits on expression are far, far less egregious than fascism.

Either that or you have no idea of what fascism means.

Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

So thats worse than the thinking of some that a symbol should not be displayed!

Yikes.

In your lifetime which presidential administration comes the closest to fitting that definition?
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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I assume you mean US. The short answer is none.

But having the US justice department investigate and require the disclosure of the names of those that protested. The trump administration. Is a troublesome sign. "The shocking US vote not to condemn the death penalty for LGBT people" in another thread here. Is serious.

The constant attacks on the US news media and constant lying by trump and his spokespeople. All to suppress facts and press alternative facts. Are all indicators of a mindset in trump that thankfully, republicans don't, for the majority, share.

The US house and senate. The US Constitution. Are too strong individually and collectively. For a small mind, a fascist mind, like trump's.

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Phil1111

******...I normally try very hard to make room for opposing viewpoints and to steer clear of censorship, but fascists will never get a pass.



Someone flying a "fascist" banner bothers me far less than someone thinking it's up to them to allow it or not.

Eventually you will come to realize that that you are either misguided or failed to understand the lessons of history. Limits on expression are far, far less egregious than fascism...

...So that's worse than the thinking of some that a symbol should not be displayed!

Yikes.

There are two similar, but non-identical positions being held here.

First off, the 1stA only applies to governmental regulation of speech, assembly, ect.
It says that the government can't pass laws against it. That has been carried over to things like parades, protests, permits and that sort of thing.

A governmental entity cannot allow one type of protest or parade (say gay pride) and deny another (say Nazis or KKK).

While fascism is truly reprehensible, evil in fact, the idea of the government deciding which political viewpoints are acceptable and which ones aren't is worse.

However, free speech has consequences.

To say that someone (whether it be the KKK or the Dixie Chicks) can make a controversial statement without anyone being allowed to argue or dissent is pretty stupid.

Given their history and the actions they have committed in the past, I don't have too much problem with someone engaging the Nazis or the KKK when they show up in public.

If you want to run around waving the swastika, and praising a group who exterminated millions of innocent people, then don't be too surprised when someone takes enough offense to physically attack. It is illegal (assault & battery most likely), and may result in legal consequences for the attacker, but it should't be too surprising.

Don't be too surprised when someone takes your picture and posts it online, resulting in being fired.

Don't pretend that your "free speech" rights deny me the right to point out that you are a stupid asshole ('you' in this case being a generic 'you', not directed to anyone in particular).
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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I concur, free speech in itself and the symbols of free speech have never killed anyone.

Fascism has.

There is a slippery slope in free speech that can lead to injury or death. Thats why in many countries there are laws where incarceration can result from what in the US is "free speech". Displaying a Nazi flag in Germany for example.

Free speech inciting racial hatred is a concept of concern in general. Prior to the Rwanda genocide the Hutu began demonizing the Tutsi minority. Publicly allowing the adjectives describing the Tutsi as inferior:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=EDZa0zZ-XCAC&pg=PA449&lpg=PA449&dq=Tutsi+as+inferior,demonization&source=bl&ots=MwFnR8vjS8&sig=v5p4U3gVnWwIiOT2znHZl_nwRJc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLsa3SveHWAhUK_mMKHQXuCcgQ6AEILTAC#v=onepage&q=Tutsi%20as%20inferior%2Cdemonization&f=false

The above from "Centuries of Genocide: Essays and Eyewitness Accounts". Which was authored before the latest genocide;

"The Rohingya, who've been described as one of the most persecuted groups on the planet, are a stateless Muslim minority group who live primarily in the Rakhine state of Myanmar. They aren't considered citizens by the Myanmar government, in spite of the fact they've lived Myanmar for generations.

"The lack of status bleeds into all aspects of their lives: they face restrictions on freedom of movement; their rights to health, education and religion; deprivation of their livelihoods; and constant harassment by security forces," Richard Weir, who covers Myanmar for Human Rights Watch, tells Newsweek. "
http://www.newsweek.com/genocide-occurring-against-rohingya-myanmar-experts-weigh-659841
In a sick and perverse way the decent into savagery as depicted by "The Lord of the Flies" is in part, a motivation for many Americans to buy and posses guns. The decent of a society into ethnic cleansing is a minor event away, in their minds. A gun represents protection.

Rhetorically, if the Rohingya, the Tutsi, has a safe full AR-15's in their closets would it have happened? Or, in silence, be happening today?

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We're not talking about enacting Fascism, we're tallking about someone displaying a possibly fascist symbol. How does surpressing their ability to express their feelings help? If we don't allow someone to say what they support will they then change thier minds? Bikers have gone around wearing swastikas for decades. Has this caused a surge in Nazi activities in Sturgis?

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This same bunch tried to get "Trump 2016" declared Hate Speech and banned from OU's campus. If they'd gotten their way you would lose your job for having a Trump bumper sticker. And they haven't given up on that yet. Now they, the People's Justice League, under the leadership of Fick and her ilk, patrol the Athens area for anything they deem offensive. Then they post an Action Alert (I'm not making any of this up) online with the name and address of the offenders. You wake up the next morning with crowds self-righteous people in your yard to educate you.
So yes, some idiot flying a possibly fascist symbol frightens me a lot less than people like this. On one side we have someone flying a symbol, on the other we have people living the life. I'm really surprised that Fick hasn't designed their own symbol and started wearing it as an armband. Then they can spend a night breaking windows in businesses and homes of people they don't approve of.

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Bob_Church

We're not talking about enacting Fascism, we're tallking about someone displaying a possibly fascist symbol. How does surpressing their ability to express their feelings help? If we don't allow someone to say what they support will they then change thier minds? Bikers have gone around wearing swastikas for decades. Has this caused a surge in Nazi activities in Sturgis?



Displaying a fascist symbol is supporting fascism.

Perhaps they were truly ignorant about the people who have adopted that flag as their symbol. If so, they should have removed it when it was pointed out to them.

They chose to stand on their "free speech" rights. Which is stupid. The law prohibited the display of that (or any) flag without a permit. They took the flag down, put their "Trump" flag back up, got the permit (apparently without issue), and put the fascist flag back up.

Displaying the flag, knowing who has adopted it, is enabling it.

And I find it funny as all hell that they refused to give their names to the reporter. They were afraid that their stance would cause problems in the future.

Bikers wear Nazi symbols to deliberately piss people off. That's what they do.

These guys apparently want to piss people off, but don't want people pissed off at them.
They want their speech to go without consequences, yet don't want others to be able to express opposing views.

Hypocritical to say the least.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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"Displaying a fascist symbol is supporting fascism. "


Yes, but it's not enacting it. There is a big difference.

And where did all this stuff about 1st amendment come from? This has become one huge strawman argument. I'll be reading a post then think "wait, he's talking about what I said, but I didn't say anything like that."
What I said is that these self-appointed vigilantes scare me. And they do. What they posted was "Action Alert, there may be Nazis living at" and then posted the address to a public website that is followed by the sort of people who love going around and educating people. This isn't their first outing, not by far. But I never said they shouldn't be allowed to. I'm saying that I find it scary.

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Bob_Church

This same bunch tried to get "Trump 2016" declared Hate Speech and banned from OU's campus. If they'd gotten their way you would lose your job for having a Trump bumper sticker. And they haven't given up on that yet. Now they, the People's Justice League, under the leadership of Fick and her ilk, patrol the Athens area for anything they deem offensive. Then they post an Action Alert (I'm not making any of this up) online with the name and address of the offenders. You wake up the next morning with crowds self-righteous people in your yard to educate you.
So yes, some idiot flying a possibly fascist symbol frightens me a lot less than people like this. On one side we have someone flying a symbol, on the other we have people living the life. I'm really surprised that Fick hasn't designed their own symbol and started wearing it as an armband. Then they can spend a night breaking windows in businesses and homes of people they don't approve of.



Do you have a link for the OU claim?

I can't find it with a quick search.

The problem is that much of what Trump has said is hateful speech. And most of the "hateful people" (Nazis, KKK, white supremacists of all sorts) are Trump supporters. Not all Trump supporters are racist, but most racists are Trump supporters.

And I think your representation of the PJL is a bit over the top.

Of course, given that certain segments of society have been pretty much free to harass & intimidate anyone they want, when it gets thrown back at them, they tend to scream like little kids.

When those with privileges are forced to give them up and be treated as equals (and treat others the same way), they tend to feel that they are being discriminated against.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Iago


Does this mean the popular pre-revolution 'Join or Die' snake banner is now a fascist symbol just because some assclown flew it at a rally?



It kinda depends. Basically, if enough assclowns rally around any symbol, and nobody protests and claims that they don't represent the true meaning of that symbol, then it becomes the "symbol of the assclown."

For a fairly neutral example, the rainbow flag has become the symbol of the gay rights movement. So my standard rainbow colored Triathlon canopy (this is a skydiving forum, right?) sometimes raised questions from whuffo spectators. It had nothing to do with that, but it had the potential to appear that way to some people.

Was the Gadsden flag previously prominent among non-fascist groups?
Has it become prominent among the fascist groups of late?

Does it have other, non-fascist connotations?

Has it been used by people to intimidate or harass others?

For the Gadsden flag, it's a mixed bag.

Largely absent for a long, long time, it showed back up recently. In a variety of contexts.

A quick search found THIS.
Interesting read.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Bob_Church

And what about all those seriously fascists types who have flown American flags? Do we ban that flag now?



Who said anything about "ban"?

I said in my earlier post that having the government decide what is and is not acceptable is abhorrent.

And I have to say I find it rather funny how many people are up in arms about the players that are "disrespecting the flag" (actually it's the Star Spangled Banner, but don't let the facts get in the way), yet have no problem with the idiots that fly the American flag alongside the Nazi swastika.

And I looked around the PJL site.

What in particular offends you?

Speaking up against sexual assault and an atmosphere that condones it?
Speaking up against homophobia?
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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I can't keep up. One moment I'm over the top. The next I'm offended. Ok.
As for the PJL if you want to only take into account their stated goals, and no organization would ever phrase those in a way that only makes them look good, I suppose, go ahead. I'll keep paying attention to what they actually do and how they do it.
So if you want to reply to me about this, don't wait for me, just put down whatever words you want then say "why do you feel that way?
I'm out.

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RonD1120

*********
.


Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

So thats worse than the thinking of some that a symbol should not be displayed!

Yikes.

In your lifetime which presidential administration comes the closest to fitting that definition?

The first that comes to mind is Nixon. Probably because I've detested him so much for so long. With his secret police headed by Hoover I thought that the revolution had to be near. But Lincoln may be included in the discussion. He had good reasons and I believe he would have relinquished the powers he usurped.

Our practice of a representative democracy has incorporated something the original framers did not foresee. Back then, only land owning males were allowed the vote. Probably because they were the more well educated and could consider their own best interests. But now everyone has a vote if they choose to exercise it. That's a good thing. But the down side is that the average/mean (I'm not sure which is appropriate) education level has come down. A lot, I think. With about 50 - 55 percent voter turnout it's 25 to 30 percent of the electorate choosing our representatives. These motivated voters are usually the ones with the torches and pitchforks chasing the monster. The leader of the mob has used free speech to whip up the frenzy.

Free speech should be sacred. If the leader of the lemmings convinces everyone to "run off the cliff" then everyone should have the right to do just that. I think that's what we saw last November as well as the midterms in '94. I'm sure some would say that's what we saw in '08 and '12. If the voters choose, then that's what they should have. The voters in the Gaza Strip chose Hamas, a terrorist organization to be its governing body. The world was horrified and some even advocated intervention. But how could they and still say people had a right to choose their own fate? If a crazy person convinces enough people what are the "rational" ones to do? All we can do is wait for the next election and try to motivate our own mob.
Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

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Reply to Bob Church.
I looked up the People's Justice League website. There bars are supposed to do the following:

"Businesses taking the pledge are given a plaque to be placed behind the bar or counter that reads, “No Racism, No Sexism, No Homophobia.” Bartenders are asked to make it clear to their patrons that microaggressions, offensive jokes, and other harassing behavior will not be tolerated within their establishment, eliminating the slippery slope that allows perpetrators of more heinous forms of violence to think they may be able to get away with it. Participating businesses are marked with a sticker on their door and listed on PJL’s website."

There is an orange bar to tag if you find a "violation".
I can see it now. Hordes of People's Justice League "safe place" do gooders descend upon a bar because someone told a dirty joke about women. An offensive joke. A micro aggression. I guess they would quickly interrogate everyone..."Who told that dirty joke about women?... - I don't know what would happen if they identified the offender. Give him a time out? Other child centered parenting strategies? I can see it now,"All points bulletin: dirty joke at the Starlight Lounge!" "Mobilize all cars to that location!" Or I guess they could picket his house and wave banners to get media attention. Banners would say, "This guy went to a bar and told a dirty joke"

OK so much for the humor. Mr Church, you were right. This Sarah Fick woman and her group, seeking "safe places" exists.

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