Kennedy Assassination

[CaseyHeart 0]

This thread is just further proof that people still care too fucking much about this for them to release the details yet. . .

[DJL 232]

CaseyHeart

This thread is just further proof that people still care too fucking much about this for them to release the details yet. . .

I can't imagine there's anything to release that'll change our perspective. We look back on this era and see nothing but Red Scares and Govt corruption, intrigue, the time of James Bond plot lines but it's just the same old world where the simple answer is probably exactly what happened. LHO was an extremist, he had already tried to kill a General and then he went after the big cheese. He had a rifle that he could shoot well with and he hit with 2 out of 3 shots fired in about an 8 second window and then killed a cop trying to evade capture. The rest of it is the gov't doing what they do the worst, trying to make it look like a nice tidy open and closed case.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[BIGUN 1,049]

The first bullet missed and hit a tree (excellent marksmanship). There's also a single bullet two shot theory that LHO hit both JFK and the governor. The angles appear right.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[nolhtairt 0]

BIGUN

The first bullet missed and hit a tree (excellent marksmanship). There's also a single bullet two shot theory that LHO hit both JFK and the governor. The angles appear right.

Yes. That's the bullet that went through JFK's neck and into the front seat and hit the governor.

[DJL 232]

BIGUN

The first bullet missed and hit a tree (excellent marksmanship). There's also a single bullet two shot theory that LHO hit both JFK and the governor. The angles appear right.

Look at the video I posted. They did a test where people are filming while bullets are being shot. They used the same camera and the only difference is that the cameramen knew what to expect. The way that the footage shakes at each bullet is the same on both and the Zapruder film does it three times. One miss, two hits

If that analysis doesn't stand up and there were only two shots then LHO had a spent casing that he dropped from his position. Not much intrigue there.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[BIGUN 1,049]

I did look at your embedded videos. I have a hard time believing that he could make those two rounds in a fraction of the time at a moving target, from that distance, with that rifle, with his lack of skill when two well-reknowned snipers say they couldn't make it.

BillVon could be right and he was just that lucky once... Hopefully, the full report will be released in our lifetime and clear it up. I don't want to re-hash 50 years of conspiracy stuff. The facts will come out eventually... unless the alphabets continue to keep it out of sight.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[DJL 232]

BIGUN

I did look at your embedded videos. I have a hard time believing that he could make those two rounds in a fraction of the time at a moving target, from that distance, with that rifle, with his lack of skill when two well-reknowned snipers say they couldn't make it.

BillVon could be right and he was just that lucky once... Hopefully, the full report will be released in our lifetime and clear it up. I don't want to re-hash 50 years of conspiracy stuff. The facts will come out eventually... unless the alphabets continue to keep it out of sight.

2 shots within 5-6 seconds isn't a huge leap. What the experts were addressing for 40 years was 3 shots in 5.3 seconds because that's what the Warren Commission thought happened. It was more recently found that the second shot occurred just as he emerges from behind the sign (See BOTH of their reactions) and the final is the head shot. That's almost 6 seconds, plenty of time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsqHzCYFk38). The first shot occurs about when the bumper of the vehicle goes behind the sign so that's all a span of 8-12 seconds for three shots and would not be that difficult. Per the Warren Commision documents the agents doing the testing were able to fire three shots within 7 to 9 seonds (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=39&relPageId=411

Next, just because he did score very well on the range four years before when he was a Marine doesn't mean he wasn't capable with the weapon in question at the time of the shooting. He had attempted to kill General Edwin Walker and only failed because the bullet deflected off the window frame. Additionally, and according to the Warren Commission, he had been on various hunting trips and had been practicing with the rifle.

Edit: The attempt on Walker was 7 months before Kennedy and exemplifies that LHO had plenty of time to practice with the weapon.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[BIGUN 1,049]

The last two shots would have had to been made in less than 3 seconds.

Quote

II. THE NUMBER, TIMING, AND SOURCE OF THE SHOTS FIRED AT THE PRESIDENTIAL LIMOUSINE

A. Warren Commission Findings

The Warren Commission concluded that three bullets had been fired at the Presidential limousine from the sixth floor, southeast corner window, of the Texas School Book Depository. Finding that the first pierced the President's neck, the Commission also indicated that "[although * * * not necessary to any essential findings * * *, there is very persuasive evidence from the experts to indicate that [this] * * * same bullet * * * also caused Governor Connally's.

A second bullet caused a massive and fatal wound to the President's head; (13) a third bullet was believed to have missed the car and its occupants. (14)
The Commission was unable to establish conclusively which of the three bullets missed, and hence the precise timespan of the shots was not definitively determined. By studying the Zapruder movie film, it found that the President's back wound occurred between frames 210 and 225, and that the head wound occurred at frame 313. (15) Based upon the 18.3 frame-per-second average rate of speed at which film was exposed in Zapruder's camera, the Commission then calculated that "there was an interval of from 4.8 to 5.6 seconds" between those two shots. (16) If the second bullet were the one that missed, then this interval was the timespan for all the shots. If, however, either the first or third bullet missed, the minimum timespan would have been 7.1 to 7.9 seconds (derived from the previous calculation of 4.8 to 5.6 seconds plus 2.3 seconds, the minimum time in which Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle could be fired). (17)

To support its conclusion that the President's and Governor's wounds were caused by shots that were fired from the sixth floor, southeast corner window, of the Texas School Book Depository, the Warren Commission relied on an FBI reenactment. Using the Zapruder film as the point of reference, the FBI placed the limousine and its occupants in their approximate positions at the time of the shots and then determined the angle from the wound entry point on President Kennedy to "the end of the muzzle of the rifle positioned where it was believed to have been held by the assassin." (18) The average resulting angle of 17(deg) 43'30, allowing for a downward street grade of the street.

It was concluded by the Commission to be "consistent with the trajectory of a bullet passing through the President's neck and then striking Governor Connally's back * * *." (19)

Although each of these findings has been criticized, the Commission's statement that the bullet which caused President Kennedy's neck injury was also responsible, for Governor Connally's wounds has caused the most controversy. Warren Commission critics have asserted that in the Zapruder film, Governor Connally first reacts to his wounds at frames 234 or 238, 0.5 to 1.5 seconds after the President (who the (14)Commission found was struck between frames 210-225) and, therefore, could not have been hit by the same bullet. Moreover, given the 2.3 second minimum firing time for a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, they assert that another gunman must have been involved in the assassination. (20)

Source: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/infojfk/jfk6/timing.htm

For the benefit of the Warren Commission, expert riflemen from the US Army and the FBI attempted to duplicate the assassin’s task, using the rifle that had been discovered on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. Even after fixing some of the gun’s mechanical problems, and despite firing at stationary targets from an easier vantage point, they failed to achieve the combination of accuracy and speed demanded of the lone gunman: two hits out of three, within about six seconds (see Warren Commission Hearings, vol.3, p.446 and pp.403–10).

During his tests, Oswald had used “presumably a good to excellent rifle” (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.11, p.304). The Mannlicher Carcano rifle that was discovered on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, however, was a “cheap old weapon” (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.4, p.29).

It was examined by the FBI’s firearms specialist, who stated that:
Every time we changed the adjusting screws to move the crosshairs in the telescopic sight in one direction it also affected the movement of the impact or the point of impact in the other direction. … We fired several shots and found that the shots were not all landing in the same place, but were gradually moving away from the point of impact.(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.3, p.405)

Ronald Simmons of the US Army also examined the rifle, and found problems with the bolt and the trigger mechanism:
There were several comments made — particularly with respect to the amount of effort required to open the bolt. … There was also comment made about the trigger pull … in the first stage the trigger is relatively free, and it suddenly required a greater pull to actually fire the weapon. … The pressure to open the bolt was so great that that we tended to move the rifle off the target.(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.3, pp.449–51)

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[jakee 1,254]

BIGUN

The last two shots would have had to been made in less than 3 seconds.

That's a false analysis. There is nothing in what you just pasted that indicates the last two shots had to have been made in less than three seconds.

Quote

If, however, either the first or third bullet missed, the minimum timespan would have been 7.1 to 7.9 seconds(derived from the previous calculation of 4.8 to 5.6 seconds plus 2.3 seconds, the minimum time in which Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle could be fired)

What reason do you have to assume that he took the minimum physically possible time between the final two shots?

Quote

Even after fixing some of the gun’s mechanical problems, and despite firing at stationary targets from an easier vantage point, they failed to achieve the combination of accuracy and speed demanded of the lone gunman: two hits out of three, within about six seconds

But you haven't established that the three shots needed to be fired within 6 seconds. DJL has a convincing case that there was a much longer window between shots than you are assuming (effectively three full seconds vs half a second to aim after reloading) and you haven't even attempted to refute it, you're just ignoring it and carrying on with your assumption of the much shorter timeframe.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[BIGUN 1,049]

Dear Lord, how many citations do I have to cite to refute it further. Every paragraph was cited.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[jakee 1,254]

BIGUN

Dear Lord, how many citations do I have to cite to refute it further. Every paragraph was cited.

You're not paying attention.

DJL is disputing the timeframe that was used by the experts you reference to try and recreate the shots. You simply keep coming back with more reasons why it was impossible for Oswald to have accurately fired three shots assuming the shorter timeframe. All those experiments are irrelevant if the timeframe is wrong.

You have not provided one citation to dispute DJL's take on the timeframe, except for the last post where you clearly confused minimum for maximum

It's like this:

Bigun: It's impossible to eat two apples that quickly!

DJL: There's strong evidence only one apple was eaten.

B: The best eaters in the country tried to eat two and couldn't do it!

D: But they could eat one, and evidence suggests only one apple was gone.

B: There must have been a second eater for both apples to have been consumed!

D: There weren't two apples.

B: Dear lord what do I have to say?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[fasted3 0]

For me, the most suspicious aspect of the whole thing was Jack Ruby taking out Oswald. I didn't buy the story that a mafia hit man was so overcome with grief that he killed Oswald then, and I still don't.
He was paid for that hit, I think, so who paid?
Ruby never talked, and Oswald never could.
What were they hiding?

But what do I know?

[billvon 2,380]

How ironic that releasing the details of the investigation has just gotten all the old conspiracy theories going again.

[DJL 232]

billvon

How ironic that releasing the details of the investigation has just gotten all the old conspiracy theories going again.

I read this article yesterday and it does a good job of explaining how several aspects have become so ingrained that they overwhelm ones ability to discuss it.

http://www.newsweek.com/2014/11/28/truth-behind-jfks-assassination-285653.html

It even touches on versions of the conversation above "three shots in over 8 seconds / no way he did three shots in under 5 seconds / no...that's not what I said / exactly there's no way..."

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Niki1 1]

Sigh, ...... yet the shot was made, JFK was killed, and there is no credible evidence of another shooter.


Yeah, no evidence only conjecture. From the time I was 14, when it happened, I thought there was another shooter. JFK first gets hit, the bullet goes through his throat, his hands go to his throat and his head goes forward. The second hit is in the head and his head jerks back. I've never thought that could be anything but a impact from the front. The grassy knoll.

The conspiracy would have to be VERY small. Tom Clancy said the odds of a secret being kept is 1 over the square of the number of people who know it. The Warren Commission couldn't have a conspiracy because too many people would have had to know about it. They just chose to use the facts as presented to them.

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[DanG 1]

"Three men can keep a secret as long as two of them are dead."

Thomas Jefferson

- Dan G