Much better her than a toddler.

[Bob_Church 7]

My golden retriever Benny loved kids but had to take care of himself. My brother in law would bring his two kids over and they'd try to ride Benny. As soon as they put a leg over his back he'd sit down and they'd slide off. Then, and I'm not kidding, he'd look at me look for all the world like he was smiling.

[Bob_Church 7]

"Pitbulls have the title today that dobermans did in the 1960's."

In the early 80s our DZO and his wife (Mig and Cindy Fernandez, Ravenswood Wv Airport) had two dobermans. They were like two kittens but every evening they went to this business as it shut down and let the owner lock the dogs in the business. The dogs were fine, lots of food and water. People outside could see them and no way they were going to break into a place with two devil dogs roaming the aisles.

[Phil1111 908]

Bob_Church

My golden retriever Benny loved kids but had to take care of himself. My brother in law would bring his two kids over and they'd try to ride Benny. As soon as they put a leg over his back he'd sit down and they'd slide off. Then, and I'm not kidding, he'd look at me look for all the world like he was smiling.

Don't take this personally. But I've always thought that golden retrievers are the smartest dogs.They have a natural best demeanor of all dogs. Fastest dogs to learn something. Furthermore I've always been of the opinion that the people that get them have an above average IQ in general.

Having said that the smartest dog I've ever known was a German Shepard that my brother adopted when the dog was about 8 years old. The only bad habit he had was chasing deer. He would not stop chasing deer. Beyond that he had every behavior down to a T. He had a nose like a bloodhound. Ferociously protective and loyal. Knew how to read a person like a book to get what he wanted.

[Bob_Church 7]

Phil1111

***My golden retriever Benny loved kids but had to take care of himself. My brother in law would bring his two kids over and they'd try to ride Benny. As soon as they put a leg over his back he'd sit down and they'd slide off. Then, and I'm not kidding, he'd look at me look for all the world like he was smiling.

Don't take this personally. But I've always thought that golden retrievers are the smartest dogs.They have a natural best demeanor of all dogs. Fastest dogs to learn something. Furthermore I've always been of the opinion that the people that get them have an above average IQ in general.

Having said that the smartest dog I've ever known was a German Shepard that my brother adopted when the dog was about 8 years old. The only bad habit he had was chasing deer. He would not stop chasing deer. Beyond that he had every behavior down to a T. He had a nose like a bloodhound. Ferociously protective and loyal. Knew how to read a person like a book to get what he wanted.

I think you could read a book to Benny and he'd understand. On the other hand there was the difference between understand and obey. If he thought you were being stupid he'd just ignore you. I worried about leaving my wife at home at night way out in the country with such a friendly dog. Then one night I got home really late and was walking down over the hill to the house when Benny started up from the house. The rumbling in his chest scared me, even knowing I'd be ok when he as it was me it was really unnerving. But I felt a lot less worried about my wife being home when I had to work late after that.

[wmw999 2,116]

Quote

I knew a Dachshund that was a miniature terror. Never properly trained or socialized, and abused by ignorant children (didn't mean to be mean, but didn't know how to treat a dog).

I owned a Dachshund mix and a Rottweiler concurrently. The Rottweiler was a sweetie, other than a (natural for the breed) attitude problem with cats. The Dachshund had been abused in a previous life as far as we could tell (no info, as he'd been a stray). But he reacted poorly to kids, particularly teenagers, and people in black shirts. Especially if they were timid (like one dog-sitter ).
It's the dog, not the breed. But a big powerful dog has a bigger, more powerful, bite, and bigger muscles. Just as the Governator would be a lot scarier when aggressively angry than PeeWee Herman...

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jclalor 12]

wolfriverjoe

They are the current "Bad Dog", just like Dobermans, German Shepherds, Rottweilers and others in the past.

Idiots who want to pretend to be "tough" get them, abuse them and they are vicious dogs.
"Trash People" have bad dogs. Breed doesn't matter.

Lots of different dog breeds have attacked and injured or killed kids. You are more likely to hear about a Pit doing it because it's "more newsworthy."

They are also terriers. The biggest of the group. That's a group of dogs that has been specifically bred to chase, catch and kill small animals. If you've ever seen a good rat terrier go after a crowd of rats, then you've seen what they do. Pits do the same thing, it's a breed trait. It's just that there's a big difference between a 15 lb rat terrier and an 80 lb Pit.

Properly trained and socialized, they are amazingly loyal and loving dogs. Just like any other breed.
Some of Michael Vick's fighting dogs have been rehabilitated and are now good family pets.

My sisters have 3 pits between the two of them. The younger has 2 kids and a whole bunch of cats (5 at last count). And two large Pits.

The dogs are well trained, well socialized and members of the family.

While Dobermans certainly had the reputation for being dangerous, the stats didn’t back it up. Pit bulls on the other hand do have the stats to show it is most likely to be involved in the maming or killing of a person.

Poor training and abuse of a dog is not exclusive to pit bulls, a lot of breeds are not well trained or are abused, and yet they don’t kill children or the elderly.

Keeping a loaded gun under my pillow, with nothing ever happening to my children, does not mean it’s safe. Anecdotal evidence is not real evidence. The dramatic increase in dog fatalities is directly related to the increased number of Pitt Bulls.

Pit Bull apologists love to simply explain away the attacks by blaming the owners, a bit like Trump and fake news.

[jclalor 12]

Let’s see what’s in the news recently:

https://www.capecodtoday.com/article/2017/12/28/236546-Barnstable-Police-Statement-Dog-Bite-Incident

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pit-bull-attack-kentucky-woman-dead-husband-injured-police/

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/pit-bull-attacks-woman-and-her-labradoodle-during-farolito-walk/article_71cf7db7-5492-56f2-a663-6971ff55cef1.html

https://www.wmfd.com/news/single.asp?story=74755

http://fox43.com/2017/12/13/pit-bull-attacks-kills-77-year-old-suburban-illinois-woman/

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/20171214/update-with-911-audio-pit-bull-attack-sends-pizza-man-deputy-to-hospital

http://www.miamiherald.com/living/pets/article187945754.html

http://www.miamiherald.com/living/pets/article187945754.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-stabs-family-pit-bull-vicious-attack-owners-article-1.3656629


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/11/24/man-dies-after-4-pit-bulls-attack-him-philadelphia-thanksgiving-day/892465001/

http://kutv.com/news/local/utah-woman-recovering-after-vicious-pit-bull-attack

http://www.wftv.com/news/local/boy-helps-save-10-year-old-brother-from-pit-bull-attack-in-sanford/611228140

[lippy 764]

I'm definitely not a 'Pit Bull Apologist' and I've never owned one and never intend to.

You make good points but it does seem unfair to blame the breed. As has been mentioned before, the breed tends to attract people who don't really qualify as 'loving dog owners' in any sense of the term and so you end up with this combination of an incredibly powerful dog with no discipline and perhaps some anger issues due to its home life. A Shih Tzu in the hands of an asshole could be just as bad of a dog, it just wouldn't do the same damage.

Again, I don't have a dog in this fight and I agree with your point that it's not only a matter of blaming the owners, but nor is it a matter of only blaming the dogs.

I got nuthin

[Bob_Church 7]

"A Shih Tzu in the hands of an asshole could be just as bad of a dog, it just wouldn't do the same damage."

It would really help to see something that backs that statement up. And that goes for at least nine tenths of the statements on this thread, both pro and against pitbulls. I've heard people say that pitbulls don't react to abuse any differently than other breeds of dogs. Well, that would be important, but where does it come from?

[Bob_Church 7]

Especially if they were timid (like one dog-sitter Shocked).
It's the dog, not the breed. But a big powerful dog has a bigger, more powerful, bite, and bigger muscles. Just as the Governator would be a lot scarier when aggressively angry than PeeWee Herman...

Wendy P. "

How does that account for all the dogs like German Shephards that have been abused but never killed the neighbors?

[lippy 764]

Bob_Church

How does that account for all the dogs like German Shephards that have been abused but never killed the neighbors?

Do the assholes that dabble in dog fighting typically breed German Shepherds? (honest question, not trying to be a contrarian).

I got nuthin

[Bob_Church 7]

lippy

***
How does that account for all the dogs like German Shephards that have been abused but never killed the neighbors?

Do the assholes that dabble in dog fighting typically breed German Shepherds? (honest question, not trying to be a contrarian).


The attacks and deaths aren't limited to dogs that were abused and turned into fighters. Maybe the question is "why don't the mouth breathers who like fighting dogs ever use German Shepherds?" Dogs are abused and neglected every day. Which ones are killing people?

[Bob_Church 7]

lippy

***
How does that account for all the dogs like German Shephards that have been abused but never killed the neighbors?

Do the assholes that dabble in dog fighting typically breed German Shepherds? (honest question, not trying to be a contrarian).

Let's put it this way. If a bunch of people move in up the street will it matter to you (not just you, I mean everyone you) whether they have a schnauzer, a german shepherd or a pitbull?

[billvon 2,380]

>It would really help to see something that backs that statement up.

From personal experience, I've been attacked by both a pomeranian and a German shepherd. The German shepherd did more damage.

[jclalor 12]

Bob_Church

"A Shih Tzu in the hands of an asshole could be just as bad of a dog, it just wouldn't do the same damage."

It would really help to see something that backs that statement up. And that goes for at least nine tenths of the statements on this thread, both pro and against pitbulls. I've heard people say that pitbulls don't react to abuse any differently than other breeds of dogs. Well, that would be important, but where does it come from?

Here is a history of fatal dog attacts in the US since 1900, notice how the yearly average was only a few a year until pit bulls appear. Also notice the age of the victims, most are the very young or the very old.

In 2017, every fatality included a pit bull. One may draw the conclusion that if there were no pit bulls...

I stand corrected, all but one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

[DanG 1]

From your Wiki article:

Quote

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) published a study in 2000 on dog bite-related fatalities (DBRF) that covered the years 1979–1998. The report concluded that relying on media coverage of dog-bite-related fatalities presents a biased view of the dogs involved. They stated that media reports are likely to only cover about 74% of the actual incidents and that dog attacks involving certain breeds may be more likely to receive media coverage. They also reported that since breed identification is difficult and subjective, attacks may be more likely to be "ascribed to breeds with a reputation for aggression".[10]

Also from your Wiki article:

Quote

The most recent study of the epidemiology of fatal dog bites in the United States was published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association in 2013.[12] While earlier studies were based on television and newspaper reports, this was the first study to be based on law-enforcement reports, animal control reports, and investigator statements. It identified preventable factors in the fatal incidents. They found that the most common contributing factors were: absence of an able-bodied person to intervene, no familiar relationship of victims with dogs, owner failure to neuter dogs, compromised ability of victims to interact appropriately with dogs (e.g. mental disabilities), dogs kept isolated from regular positive human interactions versus family dogs (e.g. dogs kept chained in backyards), owners' prior mismanagement of dogs, and owners' history of abuse or neglect of dogs. Furthermore, they found that in 80% of the incidents, 4 or more of the above factors co-occurred.

The authors found that in a significant number of DBRFs there was either a conflict between different media sources reporting breed and/or a conflict between media and animal control reports relative to the reporting of breed. For 401 dogs described in various media accounts of DBRFs, media sources reported conflicting breed attributions for 124 of the dogs (30.9%); and where there were media reports and an animal control report (346 dogs), there were conflicting breed attributions for 139 dogs (40.2%)

According to this study, reliable verification of the breed of dog was only possible in 18% of incidents.

By the way, the list you cited was from DogsBite.org, which is an anti-pit bull organization. That's not my interpretation, they openly state it.

- Dan G

[Phil1111 908]

http://dogtime.com/dog-health/general/1220-american-pit-bull-terrier-temperament-dog-bites

A good, sad, read on the situation.
https://stories.barkpost.com/pit-bulls-shelters-question/

Testing suggests that all breeds are virtually the same. The pit bull is properly identified as "AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER"

the ranking is here:
https://atts.org/breed-statistics/statistics-page1/

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

jclalor

While Dobermans certainly had the reputation for being dangerous, the stats didn’t back it up. Pit bulls on the other hand do have the stats to show it is most likely to be involved in the maming or killing of a person...

That's funny.

While looking for stats on this, I found the same Wiki page you linked in a later post.

Look at the 70s and 80s.

Look at how many Pit Bulls. Look at how many German Shepherds (and other dogs).

The idea that the lack of media reports correlates in any way with a lack of attacks is rather disingenuous.

These days, any report of an attack makes the internet. The "anti" groups latch on to it and spread it all over.

That didn't happen 25 years ago. Back then, the incident you linked in the OP never would have made news beyond local or regional.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Bob_Church 7]

wolfriverjoe

***

While Dobermans certainly had the reputation for being dangerous, the stats didn’t back it up. Pit bulls on the other hand do have the stats to show it is most likely to be involved in the maming or killing of a person...

That's funny.

While looking for stats on this, I found the same Wiki page you linked in a later post.

Look at the 70s and 80s.

Look at how many Pit Bulls. Look at how many German Shepherds (and other dogs).

The idea that the lack of media reports correlates in any way with a lack of attacks is rather disingenuous.

These days, any report of an attack makes the internet. The "anti" groups latch on to it and spread it all over.

That didn't happen 25 years ago. Back then, the incident you linked in the OP never would have made news beyond local or regional.

I'm sure you'll agree when I say I still want to make abusing a dog a capital crime punishable by a long slow painful death. Any dog. There's some seriously sick crap going on in the name of dog fighting. How can a human being enjoy it?

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Bob_Church

I'm sure you'll agree when I say I still want to make abusing a dog a capital crime punishable by a long slow painful death. Any dog. There's some seriously sick crap going on in the name of dog fighting. How can a human being enjoy it?

Actually, I'm against the DP on general principles, mainly the faults of the criminal justice system (for example, the Innocence Project got more people off of Illinois' death row than were executed for a number of years).

I'd like to see significant fines, serious time behind bars and lifetime bans on any animal possession for those convicted of animal abuse.
I'd also like to see a lot more accountability on the part of the owners. For owners that allow their animals to run loose, for any repeated attacks, or any deaths.
To see an owner get charged and convicted of negligent homicide (or "party to") in a dog attack death would be justice, at least to me.

"Gladiator Sports" have always been popular. They are exciting. I watched the Mayweather/MacGregor fight last fall.

Not a whole lot of difference between that and a dog fight or a cock fight.
The two big differences (all the difference in the world, IMO) are that people enter the ring knowing what they are facing and consenting to it. Dogs and chickens don't have that choice.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jclalor 12]

Phil1111

http://dogtime.com/dog-health/general/1220-american-pit-bull-terrier-temperament-dog-bites

A good, sad, read on the situation.
https://stories.barkpost.com/pit-bulls-shelters-question/

Testing suggests that all breeds are virtually the same. The pit bull is properly identified as "AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER"

the ranking is here:
https://atts.org/breed-statistics/statistics-page1/

So if pit bulls are no more dangerous than other breeds, and the press is biased, are you suggesting then that there are actually hundreds of people killed yearly?

[skinnay 0]

jclalor

***"A Shih Tzu in the hands of an asshole could be just as bad of a dog, it just wouldn't do the same damage."

It would really help to see something that backs that statement up. And that goes for at least nine tenths of the statements on this thread, both pro and against pitbulls. I've heard people say that pitbulls don't react to abuse any differently than other breeds of dogs. Well, that would be important, but where does it come from?

Here is a history of fatal dog attacts in the US since 1900, notice how the yearly average was only a few a year until pit bulls appear. Also notice the age of the victims, most are the very young or the very old.

In 2017, every fatality included a pit bull. One may draw the conclusion that if there were no pit bulls...


Imagine if the US had no guns...

[Phil1111 908]

jclalor

***http://dogtime.com/dog-health/general/1220-american-pit-bull-terrier-temperament-dog-bites

A good, sad, read on the situation.
https://stories.barkpost.com/pit-bulls-shelters-question/

Testing suggests that all breeds are virtually the same. The pit bull is properly identified as "AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER"

the ranking is here:
https://atts.org/breed-statistics/statistics-page1/

So if pit bulls are no more dangerous than other breeds, and the press is biased, are you suggesting then that there are actually hundreds of people killed yearly?

I never suggested the press was biased. I have no idea how many are killed by dogs, injured by dogs, or what species are involved. Prior to some basic reading on this subject piqued by this thread. I'd thought they may have been slightly more aggressive than the average dog specie. As such, I was surprised to learn that they are less.

You should read the quoted stories and come up with some new information and facts. To support your what seems to be unsubstantiated biases. Unbiased facts based upon science based research. Is usually more successful in debate.

The American Temperament Test Society and US veterinarians don't seem to have reason to be biased against any particular dog specie. Some US insurers have premiums targeting some species, some don't.

I like German shepherds myself.

Carry on.

[Bob_Church 7]

jclalor

***http://dogtime.com/dog-health/general/1220-american-pit-bull-terrier-temperament-dog-bites

A good, sad, read on the situation.
https://stories.barkpost.com/pit-bulls-shelters-question/

Testing suggests that all breeds are virtually the same. The pit bull is properly identified as "AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER"

the ranking is here:
https://atts.org/breed-statistics/statistics-page1/

So if pit bulls are no more dangerous than other breeds, and the press is biased, are you suggesting then that there are actually hundreds of people killed yearly?

The problem is that you're allowing yourself to be biased by all of the people that they've killed, instead of digging up studies that show that they're all fine. I bet you think smoking is bad too. Or drunk driving. Despite the fact that I'm sure you could dig someone up somewhere to give you a study saying otherwise. Maybe that guy who claimed to disprove the holocaust is free this weekend.

[DanG 1]

No, the problem is than when presented with two studies, the OP will automatically believe the one that shows pit bulls are dangerous, regardless of the source. He will also discount any study that suggests pits are no worse than other dogs. It is called confirmation bias.

- Dan G