Can an atheist get into Heaven

[jaybird18c 4]

jcd11235

***I can't remember who said this but I thought it interesting. It went something like "Society celebrates the search for truth." (Oprah with her Universalism, Richard Gere and his Buddhism, Tom Cruise with Scientology, etc.) However, "It stands ready to crucify anyone who says they've found it."

"And yet, it moves."

This "Rock" doesn't move.

[gowlerk 1,911]

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This "Rock" doesn't move.

You say that like it's a good thing. A boast.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jakee 1,254]

RonD1120

After listening to Dr Kent Hovind's lectures I see no reason to consider that possibility.

Oh come on now. Putting "Dr" in front of Kent "Not A Doctor" Hovind's name is just straight up trolling.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jaybird18c 4]

"Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."
(1 Corinthians 1:31)

[billvon 2,396]

>"Society celebrates the search for truth." . . . . However, "It stands ready to crucify
>anyone who says they've found it."

Hmm. Doesn't seem like Stephen Hawking, Peter Higgs, Jane Goodall, Gordon Moore, Craig Venter, James Watson etc have been "crucified." Indeed, they are generally given tenure, awards, Nobel prizes etc.

Of course, if you are someone like Andrew Wakefield, and your "truth" ends up being a lie promulgated for personal gain, then you are generally (and should be) crucified.

Seems to work. We celebrate the search for, and discovery, of truth, and reject lies. (Well, at least the ivory tower, out of touch elitist liberals do.)

[gowlerk 1,911]

jaybird18c

"Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."
(1 Corinthians 1:31)

Yes, the bible is full of justifications for bad behaviors. If that is what you are looking for, that is what you will find.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jcd11235 0]

jaybird18c

***"And yet, it moves."

This "Rock" doesn't move.

To which rock are you referring?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[JoeWeber 2,299]

jaybird18c

I can't remember who said this but I thought it interesting. It went something like "Society celebrates the search for truth." (Oprah with her Universalism, Richard Gere and his Buddhism, Tom Cruise with Scientology, etc.) However, "It stands ready to crucify anyone who says they've found it."

If someone claimed they found Ghengis Khan's grave, and as a consequence you now needed to organize your life around it, you'd ask them to prove it, yes?

Don't make yourself a martyr or a victim here, Jay. Either prove that you can factually assert the existence of God and that this God is omniscient or retract the statement.

[DJL 232]

JoeWeber

***I can't remember who said this but I thought it interesting. It went something like "Society celebrates the search for truth." (Oprah with her Universalism, Richard Gere and his Buddhism, Tom Cruise with Scientology, etc.) However, "It stands ready to crucify anyone who says they've found it."

If someone claimed they found Ghengis Khan's grave, and as a consequence you now needed to organize your life around it, you'd ask them to prove it, yes?

Don't make your self a martyr or a victim here, Jay. Either prove that you can factually assert the existence of God and that this God is omniscient or retract the statement.

Or what if the grave was empty and several people told you that he hadn't died, they'd seen him at a party?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[jaybird18c 4]

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Either prove that you can factually assert the existence of God and that this God is omniscient or retract the statement.

Joe, No amount of evidence would ever satisfy you.

[jcd11235 0]

jaybird18c

Joe, No amount of evidence would ever satisfy you.

How can you know that before you've provided any evidence?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[gowlerk 1,911]

jaybird18c

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Either prove that you can factually assert the existence of God and that this God is omniscient or retract the statement.

Joe, No amount of evidence would ever satisfy you.

Define "evidence". You do not seem to have a basic understanding of what the word means. Either in a legal or a common language sense. You have told a bald faced lie and you are not man enough to admit it. Not that it matters.....

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jaybird18c 4]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB-BkBGgNto

“I believe in Christianity in the same way as I believe that the sun has risen. Not because I see it, but that by it, I see everything else.” – C.S. Lewis

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You have told a bald faced lie and you are not man enough to admit it. Not that it matters.....

I believe it was you whom I asked much earlier if you were intentionally just being an ass. I didn't call you one. I just asked the question. I received a "1st warning" from billvon. However, accusing me of telling "a bald faced lie" and not being "man enough to admit it" seems like a direct personal attack to me. Do the rules here apply to all?

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[jdkalou 0]

I enjoyed the first couple of pages of this thread. Didn't take long for the same people to blow a good discussion out of the water.

[jdkalou 0]

I just missed a great opportunity above to say "blew this discussion straight to hell."
But then the question would be about hell...............?

[gowlerk 1,911]

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“I believe in Christianity in the same way as I believe that the sun has risen. Not because I see it, but that by it, I see everything else.” – C.S. Lewis

LSD has the same sort of effect on some people. Just because a person's faith illuminates their path does not prove the things they see in that light are real.

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Do the rules here apply to all?

Yes, I suppose calling you out directly as a liar is a personal attack and I apologize because it is beyond the rules of engagement here.

Let me merely say that your assertion that there is evidence of God in any of the things you have said has no basis in fact. And that if you were honest with yourself and with us you would admit that.

Let me be clear that even though there is no evidence of God I in no way disrespect your belief in God. Faith is not something that requires evidence, that's why we call it faith. It is only your assertion that you can provide proof of God that I dispute.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

jaybird18c

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You have told a bald faced lie and you are not man enough to admit it. Not that it matters.....

I believe it was you whom I asked much earlier if you were intentionally just being an ass. I didn't call you one. I just asked the question. I received a "1st warning" from billvon. However, accusing me of telling "a bald faced lie" and not being "man enough to admit it" seems like a direct personal attack to me. Do the rules here apply to all?

Learn the rules.

Calling you a liar would be a PA.

Stating that you told a bald faced lie is a reflection on your statement.

There is a difference. It's somewhat subtle, but it's there.

Billvon will correct me if I'm wrong.

How do you know that your evidence will be rejected?
Do you know that it's false, or totally unscientific?

I don't have the slightest problem with you saying "This is what I believe".

I do have an issue with you stating that there is a preponderance of evidence for God's existence.

The fact that you have yet to produce one shred of said evidence is further indication of your inability to do so.

jaybird18c

***This thread posed the question, can an atheist get into heaven. Now after 473 posts we have reached the point where you are ready to throw down and fight for the right to remain outside.

I am convinced.

I am not bothered by your conviction. As a Christian I have no personal investment. No Christian does.

We share the good news of the Gospel of Christ without obligation, requirement or guilt.

What Ron said x 2! Except that it does bother me in that I know the tragic outcome. And it is, as you said in your last sentence, the Christian's personal responsibility/investment of sharing/explaining. But it is just that. None of us can reason someone into conviction. Especially when, from the standard of reason (e.g. God), they are unreasonable. But, you know, it's their choice.

The only response I have to this is:

Bullshit.

The entire Christian faith is based on guilt and fear.

Guilt that normal, instinctive human behaviors are "sins" and that we will go to hell for them.
Guilt that Jesus died for these sins.
Fear that we will go to hell unless we 'accept Jesus' as our personal savior.

Both you and Ron throw down the "guilt and fear" card when you ask about our 'sins and salvation'.

jaybird18c

I can't remember who said this but I thought it interesting. It went something like "Society celebrates the search for truth." (Oprah with her Universalism, Richard Gere and his Buddhism, Tom Cruise with Scientology, etc.) However, "It stands ready to crucify anyone who says they've found it."

Well, again, much of this depends on your point of view.

What 'society'? What 'truth'?

In general, the scientific community is open to any valid hypothesis. It has to be proven, and if it goes against commonly held belief, it needs a lot of proof.
But if the proof is there, the idea will (eventually) be accepted. Black holes are a good example of this.

But if the 'truth' being presented is nothing more than a rehash of Bronze age myths, legends and folk tales, then there needs to be more proof than self proclaimed "Doctors" who won't even support their ideas

And don't forget that there were more than a few scientists persecuted by the Church for proposing scientific ideas that went against Church teachings (Galileo is one of the more famous).

And understand something: Proof and evidence are not that complicated.
Demonstrable, repeatable, empirical, scientifically valid.

If another, independent person can take the same data and achieve the same results, then it is likely to be true.
If the person making the claims can't even reproduce the results themselves, especially when under independent observation, then...
Not so much.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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[Bob_Church 7]

jaybird18c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB-BkBGgNto

“I believe in Christianity in the same way as I believe that the sun has risen. Not because I see it, but that by it, I see everything else.” – C.S. Lewis

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You have told a bald faced lie and you are not man enough to admit it. Not that it matters.....

I believe it was you whom I asked much earlier if you were intentionally just being an ass. I didn't call you one. I just asked the question. I received a "1st warning" from billvon. However, accusing me of telling "a bald faced lie" and not being "man enough to admit it" seems like a direct personal attack to me. Do the rules here apply to all?

The problem is that it's not worth the trouble and flood of meaningless words you'll get for mentioning it. This forum should be of interest to thousands of skydivers. How many regulars is it down to?

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[jcd11235 0]

jaybird18c

However, accusing me of telling "a bald faced lie" and not being "man enough to admit it" seems like a direct personal attack to me.

Have you ever noticed how some people like to play the victim when backed into a logical corner?

And you do realize that CS Lewis does not constitute evidence, right?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jaybird18c 4]

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The fact that you have yet to produce one shred of said evidence is further indication of your inability to do so.

- Matter
- Energy
- Information
- Conscience

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The entire Christian faith is based on guilt and fear.

Guilt that normal, instinctive human behaviors are "sins" and that we will go to hell for them.
Guilt that Jesus died for these sins.

Interesting. Dr. Ravi Zacharias addressed this in his book “The End of Reason.” Secularization – The process by which religious ideas, institutions, and interpretations have lost their social significance. When this happens, a cultural inversion takes place. When secularization has had its full course, it will ultimately destroy a sense of shame within a culture. You take shame away from a highly educated person and you’ve got a monster in the making. “I want to raise a generation of young people devoid of a conscious, imperious, relentless, and cruel.” - Adolph Hitler The danger with this kind of world, “Not with intent but with logical outworking,” is that it will produce a generation of men and women without shame. The tragedy of that is a production of hell.

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Fear that we will go to hell unless we 'accept Jesus' as our personal savior.

Jesus never needed anyone’s “acceptance.” You need his. You don’t go to hell for not accepting Jesus. You go to hell for unrepentant lying, steeling, committing adultery, blaspheming, murder, dishonoring your parents, coveting, etc.

[gowlerk 1,911]

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- Matter
- Energy
- Information
- Conscience

Are you getting desperate, or angry, or are you just playing games here. What is this supposed to mean?

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“I want to raise a generation of young people devoid of a conscious, imperious, relentless, and cruel.” - Adolph Hitler

Now you are going full Godwin. Hitler was probably anti-Christian. But he made a regular practice of denouncing atheism for political reasons.

You are now making the common and false case that morality flows from religion. And that without religion men are just animals with no morals. Any sociologist, including Ron, can tell you that this is completely incorrect. Some of the most immoral people the world has ever seen have been religious leaders.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jcd11235 0]

jaybird18c

- Matter
- Energy
- Information
- Conscience

None of those things are evidence of the existence of a supreme being (or even a lesser god).

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[JoeWeber 2,299]

jaybird18c

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Either prove that you can factually assert the existence of God and that this God is omniscient or retract the statement.

Joe, No amount of evidence would ever satisfy you.

That's some weak shit, Jay. You are holding an empty bag and you know it.

[jaybird18c 4]

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You are now making the common and false case that morality flows from religion. And that without religion men are just animals with no morals. Any sociologist, including Ron, can tell you that this is completely incorrect. Some of the most immoral people the world has ever seen have been religious leaders.

I'm not saying that at all. Morality doesn't flow from religious practice. It flows from God. And I never meant to imply that secular people can't have morality. God's "Common Grace" applies to all.

[gowlerk 1,911]

jaybird18c

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You are now making the common and false case that morality flows from religion. And that without religion men are just animals with no morals. Any sociologist, including Ron, can tell you that this is completely incorrect. Some of the most immoral people the world has ever seen have been religious leaders.

I'm not saying that at all. Morality doesn't flow from religious practice. It flows from God. And I never meant to imply that secular people can't have morality. God's "Common Grace" applies to all.

Then why did you post this?

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Interesting. Dr. Ravi Zacharias addressed this in his book “The End of Reason.” Secularization – The process by which religious ideas, institutions, and interpretations have lost their social significance. When this happens, a cultural inversion takes place. When secularization has had its full course, it will ultimately destroy a sense of shame within a culture. You take shame away from a highly educated person and you’ve got a monster in the making. “I want to raise a generation of young people devoid of a conscious, imperious, relentless, and cruel.” - Adolph Hitler The danger with this kind of world, “Not with intent but with logical outworking,” is that it will produce a generation of men and women without shame. The tragedy of that is a production of hell.

It quite clearly claims that secularization will lead to hell on Earth.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.