Can an atheist get into Heaven

[jaybird18c 4]

Most people are like frogs in a pot of water with the temperature slowly being increased till they die.

[theplummeter 14]

jaybird18c

Most people are like frogs in a pot of water with the temperature slowly being increased till they die.

In what way?

[gowlerk 1,901]

jaybird18c

Most people are like frogs in a pot of water with the temperature slowly being increased till they die.

An interesting premise. But like everything else you have posted about in this thread, a complete falsehood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

Although I do think Trump is using a related principle of outrageous behavior to try to create a new normal.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[RonD1120 58]

This thread posed the question, can an atheist get into heaven. Now after 473 posts we have reached the point where you are ready to throw down and fight for the right to remain outside.

I am convinced.

I am not bothered by your conviction. As a Christian I have no personal investment. No Christian does.

We share the good news of the Gospel of Christ without obligation, requirement or guilt.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jaybird18c 4]

RonD1120

This thread posed the question, can an atheist get into heaven. Now after 473 posts we have reached the point where you are ready to throw down and fight for the right to remain outside.

I am convinced.

I am not bothered by your conviction. As a Christian I have no personal investment. No Christian does.

We share the good news of the Gospel of Christ without obligation, requirement or guilt.

What Ron said x 2! Except that it does bother me in that I know the tragic outcome. And it is, as you said in your last sentence, the Christian's personal responsibility/investment of sharing/explaining. But it is just that. None of us can reason someone into conviction. Especially when, from the standard of reason (e.g. God), they are unreasonsble. But, you know, it's their choice.

[gowlerk 1,901]

Quote

We share the good news of the Gospel of Christ without obligation, requirement or guilt.

Guilt, shame, and fear are the main recruitment and retention tools of Christian society throughout history. That and just plain bloody force. Christianity has a long history of crushing suppression of dissenters.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[billvon 2,379]

>We share the good news of the Gospel of Christ without obligation, requirement or guilt.

From what I am seeing, you don't. I've shown you several parts of the Gospel to which you have replied "that's for talking about, not living."

Most people don't respond well to being taught something by people who don't follow those teachings to begin with.

[Bob_Church 7]

RonD1120

This thread posed the question, can an atheist get into heaven. Now after 473 posts we have reached the point where you are ready to throw down and fight for the right to remain outside.

I am convinced.

I am not bothered by your conviction. As a Christian I have no personal investment. No Christian does.

We share the good news of the Gospel of Christ without obligation, requirement or guilt.

But another aspect is that I think there are discussions that just don't work via text. It's not limited to religion but I'd say that it's high on the list.

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

I do get frustrated from time to time.

No kidding. I would too if I had to keep trying to convince people that your story wasn't full of paradoxes and plot holes

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[skinnay 0]

While everyone is arguing about this magical fantasy land, maybe we should also talk about which version of you actually goes to heaven? The old you? The young one? The one that was hit by a truck? What happens when you get tired of heaven? Surely it must be crowded. Are there animals in heaven? How far back? Are the dinosaurs there as well? What about after heaven? Surely anything would turn to hell after an eternity.

[gowlerk 1,901]

skinnay

While everyone is arguing about this magical fantasy land, maybe we should also talk about which version of you actually goes to heaven? The old you? The young one? The one that was hit by a truck? What happens when you get tired of heaven? Surely it must be crowded. Are there animals in heaven? How far back? Are the dinosaurs there as well? What about after heaven? Surely anything would turn to hell after an eternity.

Come now. It's a magical place. Whatever you need will be there. Stephen Hawking is either up there and in perfect health or more likely in hell being tortured for not believing.

But really, the point of everlasting life is to be with the Creator. Just imagine the best sex you ever had multiplied by infinity for eternity. You won't need a body at all. God will just tickle your soul.

And stop questioning things. Just accept the "truth".

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

RonD1120

This thread posed the question, can an atheist get into heaven. Now after 473 posts we have reached the point where you are ready to throw down and fight for the right to remain outside.

I am convinced.

I am not bothered by your conviction. As a Christian I have no personal investment. No Christian does.

We share the good news of the Gospel of Christ without obligation, requirement or guilt.

So I guess we won't be seeing each other again.

[jaybird18c 4]

Quote

Most people are like frogs in a pot of water with the temperature slowly being increased till they die.

Quote

An interesting premise. But like everything else you have posted about in this thread, a complete falsehood.

Yet, even so, you were smart enough to get the point I was trying to make.
Bravo gowlerk! Bravo!!

[jcd11235 0]

jaybird18c

Especially when, from the standard of reason (e.g. God), they are unreasonsble.

By more colloquial definitions of reason, it is not they who are being unreasonable.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[JoeWeber 2,294]

jaybird18c

Quote

Most people are like frogs in a pot of water with the temperature slowly being increased till they die.

Quote

An interesting premise. But like everything else you have posted about in this thread, a complete falsehood.

Yet, even so, you were smart enough to get the point I was trying to make.
Bravo gowlerk! Bravo!!

You might recall my making this suggestion earlier in the conversation:


Jay,

No one here begrudges your beliefs. Why not take a different tack? The truth is that you read the bible and you also read many scholarly works by theologians who are doing their best to make sense of the bible. Why not simply tell us that those readings resonate with you on a very deep and spiritual level. And that's that.

The thing is that you claim evidence and proof and so on. When you are pressed nothing materializes. Why not just say that you have no proof or evidence that would satisfy a secularist and that you were mistaken to make the claim? Then tell us that the truth arena that we play in is different from yours and that you hope us the best.

I say this because the more you argue ineffectively the less I believe you have no doubts.

No reply. Later, in a reply to Bill, you opened with this: "God is in fact omniscient".

That's the nuts and bolts of it, man. Your antagonists here maintain that you can not make that statement in honesty. You can say that you believe in God. You can also say that you believe the God you believe in is omniscient. But you can not claim it as fact. And when asked for facts to support your beliefs you default to defending belief with belief, not facts.

Evolution is a fact. Gravity is a fact. That the Exodus did not happen is a fact. That water could not have preceded light is a fact. That there is a God or that the presupposed God is omniscient are simply not facts.

Ron recently blasted me for derision. Well, the solution is to make statements that are not risible. I further submit that were you and Ron to speak about what you believe more factually you might start to see that you are running on a Mobius strip. Please think about that. Could you have actually written: I personally believe the God I worship is omniscient although, in truth, I have no proof?

[gowlerk 1,901]

Quote

Could you have actually written: I personally believe the God I worship is omniscient although, in truth, I have no proof?

People who are in the kind of place both Ron and Jay are can never do what you are asking. It is too terrifying for them to even consider. Because they fear that even a tiny chink in their armour could lead to them losing the faith that they hold so dear. They organize their lives around this and they will not risk it crumbling down around them. The foundation of their belief is very shaky, and they know it.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[RonD1120 58]

gowlerk

Quote

Could you have actually written: I personally believe the God I worship is omniscient although, in truth, I have no proof?

People who are in the kind of place both Ron and Jay are can never do what you are asking. It is too terrifying for them to even consider. Because they fear that even a tiny chink in their armour could lead to them losing the faith that they hold so dear. They organize their lives around this and they will not risk it crumbling down around them. The foundation of their belief is very shaky, and they know it.

No, not terrifying at all. My faith is built upon my personal experience with God, through Christ, by the Holy Spirit. Nothing can change my experience and the revelatory knowledge that came with it. Intellectual Bible study followed later.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[gowlerk 1,901]

Quote

No, not terrifying at all. My faith is built upon my personal experience with God, through Christ, by the Holy Spirit.

Is your faith strong enough to allow you to accept that Genesis is not literal truth? Many people can keep their Christian faith without holding on to this like a rock in the sea of disorder. Those are the people I see as having strong faith.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[RonD1120 58]

gowlerk

Quote

No, not terrifying at all. My faith is built upon my personal experience with God, through Christ, by the Holy Spirit.

Is your faith strong enough to allow you to accept that Genesis is not literal truth? Many people can keep their Christian faith without holding on to this like a rock in the sea of disorder. Those are the people I see as having strong faith.

After listening to Dr Kent Hovind's lectures I see no reason to consider that possibility.

https://www.google.com/search?q=kent+hovind+debate&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS789US789&oq=kent+hovind&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0l5.16159j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jcd11235 0]

RonD1120

***

Quote

No, not terrifying at all. My faith is built upon my personal experience with God, through Christ, by the Holy Spirit.

Is your faith strong enough to allow you to accept that Genesis is not literal truth? Many people can keep their Christian faith without holding on to this like a rock in the sea of disorder. Those are the people I see as having strong faith.

After listening to Dr Kent Hovind's lectures I see no reason to consider that possibility.

I simple "No" would suffice.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[JoeWeber 2,294]

RonD1120

***

Quote

No, not terrifying at all. My faith is built upon my personal experience with God, through Christ, by the Holy Spirit.

Is your faith strong enough to allow you to accept that Genesis is not literal truth? Many people can keep their Christian faith without holding on to this like a rock in the sea of disorder. Those are the people I see as having strong faith.

After listening to Dr Kent Hovind's lectures I see no reason to consider that possibility.

https://www.google.com/search?q=kent+hovind+debate&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS789US789&oq=kent+hovind&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0l5.16159j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8



Impressive CV, the good Doctor has. Well, at least he's out of prison and now on probation for tax no-no's.

Education

Patriot University
In 1971, he graduated from East Peoria Community High School in East Peoria, Illinois. He entered the accredited Illinois Central College, then transferred to the unaccredited Midwestern Baptist College in 1972, attaining a Bachelor of Religious Education in 1974.[1] In 1988 and 1991 respectively, Hovind received a master's degree and doctorate in Christian Education through correspondence from (also unaccredited) Patriot University in Colorado Springs, Colorado.[notes 1][9][10]

Having a website called "Dr. Dino" has provoked some academics to look closely at how Hovind presents his education and credentials. All his known degrees are from unaccredited institutions, and he has no training in paleontology.[11] Barbara Forrest, a professor of philosophy, expert on the history of creationism and activist in the creation-evolution controversy, wrote that Hovind's lack of training makes academic discussion impossible[10] and has said that his understanding of historical and scientific research is deficient.[12] Patriot University is a diploma mill.[12][13] Karen Bartelt, an organic chemistry professor who debated Hovind,[10] examined Hovind's dissertation and found it is incomplete,[notes 2] contains numerous spelling errors, lacks references, shows flawed reasoning, and states that it does not present any original research.[11][14][15]

[DJL 232]

jcd11235

******

Quote

No, not terrifying at all. My faith is built upon my personal experience with God, through Christ, by the Holy Spirit.

Is your faith strong enough to allow you to accept that Genesis is not literal truth? Many people can keep their Christian faith without holding on to this like a rock in the sea of disorder. Those are the people I see as having strong faith.

After listening to Dr Kent Hovind's lectures I see no reason to consider that possibility.

I simple "No" would suffice.

I'm contradicting myself a bit but I don't think a literal translation of the Bible is necessary to hold faith or be a Christian. However, it's that Christian's responsibility to apply that logic to the entire book and understand why various laws or edicts were written. The book is fallible, the writers were fallible and in many instances what they wrote is flat out wrong or has no bearing on our culture. In a period in which people were getting sick from eating some types of crustaceans it could be thought that God was the one making them sick and didn't want that. Now we understand that under cooked or improperly stored food can give people parasites or diseases and has zero to do with what God wants. Maybe apply that logic to what Leviticus says about homosexuals just as we've applied it to what a neighbor owes their neighbor if he injures their Oxen or if a woman punches a man in the genitals?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[gowlerk 1,901]

Quote

After listening to Dr Kent Hovind's lectures I see no reason to consider that possibility.

Some people have a need of leaders to follow. Some people just choose to believe. Some need to look for reasons to believe. Personally I choose to accept that the beauty is in the mystery and that no person can ever know. But that does not mean that I have to reject the knowledge that is available. I do not believe that faith is strong in a person who chooses willful blindness over acceptance of what has been shown to us. Closing your eyes to what has been revealed is a sign of fear and weakness of both spirit and faith.

But that is to be expected in a conservative. Conservatism is built on fear and distrust.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jaybird18c 4]

I can't remember who said this but I thought it interesting. It went something like "Society celebrates the search for truth." (Oprah with her Universalism, Richard Gere and his Buddhism, Tom Cruise with Scientology, etc.) However, "It stands ready to crucify anyone who says they've found it."

[jcd11235 0]

jaybird18c

I can't remember who said this but I thought it interesting. It went something like "Society celebrates the search for truth." (Oprah with her Universalism, Richard Gere and his Buddhism, Tom Cruise with Scientology, etc.) However, "It stands ready to crucify anyone who says they've found it."

"And yet, it moves."

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!