Can an atheist get into Heaven

[christelsabine 1]

jaybird18c

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Therefore, if you have an omniscient creator that knows the future, then you don't have free will.

God does not control you. You weren't created to sin and he does not cause you to sin. Just because he knows what you will does not remove your choice or responsibility.

*We* were not created to sin? Why then is a newborn full of sin? Ron?

What a helter-skelter are you and your sort trying to sell here?

With or w/o alcohol (or drugs, you name it) - it's everybody's choice what to do with its own life - no unknown, imaginary power is out there to control/or not control us. We are born, we will die one day and that's it.

If you neeed your imaginary friend, so what - do it. If it helps ....

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[gowlerk 1,911]

The validity of theology has been a contentious matter for as long as man has questioned his various and sundry gods. I like this take from Thomas Paine.

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Thomas Paine the American revolutionary, wrote in his two part work The Age of Reason, "The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion. Not anything can be studied as a science, without our being in possession of the principles upon which it is founded; and as this is the case with Christian theology, it is therefore the study of nothing."[69]

Theology, the study of nothing. As good a summary as I've ever seen.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jakee 1,254]

jaybird18c

(Romans 1: 19-20) "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."

So Ron had no excuse for not believing in god, yet god went to the trouble of manifesting to him in order to make him believe, thus saving him. Even though it was Ron's own fault he wasn't saved already.

So again, what makes Ron so special, and how is it fair that he gets help that almost no-one else in the whole world does?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,254]

jaybird18c

God is in fact omniscient. He also knows the nature of man perfectly. He knows what man will choose before he does so. Because God knows what man will choose does not mean that he controls what he will do. The fallen nature of man ensures that he will choose that which is in opposition to the will of God. He will always choose that which is consistent with his nature. But it's still his free choice even if it is predictable.

Again, incomplete logic. You are ignoring the fact that you also believe god created each person's nature. And as god creates each person's nature he would know exactly how their life will unfold as a result. Then, if he wanted them to have a different life, he could simply give them a fractionally different nature that would result in the destiny he chose for them. In which case, what does free will even mean any more? This is what Loraine (who you now accept has a girl's name) realised, which is why the quote you posted from him undermines everything about your argument.

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It's just that he would never choose differently unless his very nature were changed. That is exactly what occurs when the spirit of a man is regenerated.

So why doesn't he just stop making us with fallen natures? None of us actually fell, did we? The only person responsible for fallen nature at this point would be him, not us.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

jaybird18c

My evidence comment was in reference to the accuracy and trustworthiness of the Bible. There's plenty evidence for the existence of God also. However, I'm quite certain you don't agree with any of that either.

Well, I seem to recall you saying this (post #292):

jaybird18c

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Of course you believe that stuff. But how do you know? To be credible why not precede your statements with: I believe or my guess is or something similar?

First - How do I know?
1. Inner witness of the Holy Spirit.
2. Preponderance of the evidence.

Second - I don't need to seek your approval. Although, as Christians, we are to give answers for what we believe, truth does not need my defense. Truth stands whether or not either of us believe. And the truth is you will have to give an account one day for every thought, word, and deed in this lifetime.

So is that saying there is a preponderance of evidence for the existence of God? Or for your beliefs to be valid? Or for the Bible to be 'accurate and true'?
It reads like the evidence is for the existence of God, but the other two are possibilities.

However, you have yet to produce any evidence at all. Any relevant facts. The "the Bible is true because it says it is" isn't a fact.

You say "plenty of evidence". Great. What? Be specific.

And the funny part is, you are wrong.

Show me facts. Show me evidence. Show me proof.

I will change my mind.

I am reminded of the time Ken Hamm debated Bill Nye, The Science Guy over evolution. While it was amusing that one of the strongest proponents of Creationism chose to debate a kid's TV show host, the answers to the question "What would change your mind?" were telling. Hamm said "nothing", Nye said "evidence."

I searched for a long time for God. And the longer I searched, the less I found.
I found lots of reasons to believe in God (a God, not necessarily the God).
But none of them required God to actually exist.

And I found zero evidence that God does, in fact, exist. At least not outside our imaginations and fantasies.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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[gowlerk 1,911]

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So again, what makes Ron so special, and how is it fair that he gets help that almost no-one else in the whole world does?

There is nothing unusual about people having spiritual awakenings. And it is particularly common among those with addictive personalities. It is a major area of study in psychology.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jcd11235 0]

jaybird18c

Just because he knows what you will does not remove your choice or responsibility.

It would indeed do just that.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jaybird18c 4]

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You are ignoring the fact that you also believe god created each person's nature. And as god creates each person's nature he would know exactly how their life will unfold as a result. Then, if he wanted them to have a different life, he could simply give them a fractionally different nature that would result in the destiny he chose for them. In which case, what does free will even mean any more? This is what Loraine (who you now accept has a girl's name) realised, which is why the quote you posted from him undermines everything about your argument.

God did not create man to sin. He created him to be in relationship with himself. However, sin entered the world through man. Man chose to sin. God knew it would occur. God allowed it to occur for reasons mentioned before. Sin has had a ripple effect throughout time affecting all who follow. The nature of man is corrupted from what it was originally. That sin nature is passed along to us. Apart from God, all of us would freely choose to reject him and go our own ways the result of which has also already been discussed. However, God chose not to leave us to ourselves. God could have chosen other ways but he chose this one.

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So why doesn't he just stop making us with fallen natures? None of us actually fell, did we? The only person responsible for fallen nature at this point would be him, not us.

God made you in his own image. It's like looking into a mirror. However, one which is warped by sin, brought about by man, not God, making the reflection distorted.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

jaybird18c

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You are ignoring the fact that you also believe god created each person's nature. And as god creates each person's nature he would know exactly how their life will unfold as a result. Then, if he wanted them to have a different life, he could simply give them a fractionally different nature that would result in the destiny he chose for them. In which case, what does free will even mean any more? This is what Loraine (who you now accept has a girl's name) realised, which is why the quote you posted from him undermines everything about your argument.

God did not create man to sin. He created him to be in relationship with himself. However, sin entered the world through man. Man chose to sin. God knew it would occur. God allowed it to occur for reasons mentioned before. Sin has had a ripple effect throughout time affecting all who follow. The nature of man is corrupted from what it was originally. That sin nature is passed along to us. Apart from God, all of us would freely choose to reject him and go our own ways the result of which has also already been discussed. However, God chose not to leave us to ourselves. God could have chosen other ways but he chose this one.

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So why doesn't he just stop making us with fallen natures? None of us actually fell, did we? The only person responsible for fallen nature at this point would be him, not us.

God made you in his own image. It's like looking into a mirror. However, one which is warped by sin, brought about by man, not God, making the reflection distorted.

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra

[jaybird18c 4]

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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." 

Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra

That's an interesting quote.
It begs the question as to which side is really insane.
Belief or non-belief.

The Delusion of Atheism
https://youtu.be/HaQpENJLx-I

[theplummeter 14]

Jay,

If nothing existed and then god created everything, he created sin.

If I am not free to do something that god doesn’t know I will do, then I don’t have free will given by god, especially if I am his creation.

I tried to keep those two simple, and am genuinely curious where the flaws are in those two statements.

[jcd11235 0]

jaybird18c

It begs the question[sic] as to which side is really insane.

My money is on those who are begging the question.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[JoeWeber 2,299]

jaybird18c

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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." 

Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra

That's an interesting quote.
It begs the question as to which side is really insane.
Belief or non-belief.

The Delusion of Atheism
https://youtu.be/HaQpENJLx-I

Indeed. That's why I chose it. I think you are delusional and you are convinced that I am, too. No matter. This thread has run it's course in my opinion. No one on either side of the debate seems movable. So why continue?

I do not respect what you believe. But I definitely respect you when you stand for fairness.

Easter on April Fools day. Gotta love it, no?

[jakee 1,254]

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God did not create man to sin.

That can't be true, because he would have known when creating man what the result would be. If he didn't want humans to sin, he could have created humans differently.

Like the guy with the girl's name (which you now concede you were wrong about) said, everything that happens is what he planned to happen.

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God allowed it to occur for reasons mentioned before.

Not allowed it, caused it.

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God made you in his own image. It's like looking into a mirror. However, one which is warped by sin, brought about by man, not God, making the reflection distorted.

Again, it's incredibly obvious that you're dodging the question. The question is, why doesn't he straighten the mirror? It's not our fault that it's bent.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[headoverheels 291]

JoeWeber

Easter on April Fools day. Gotta love it, no?

Yes, tell the kids you hid candy eggs in the yard, when you didn't.

[jaybird18c 4]

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That can't be true, because he would have known when creating man what the result would be. If he didn't want humans to sin, he could have created humans differently.

God always knew what the result would be.

",even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." (Ephesians 1:4-6)

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Again, it's incredibly obvious that you're dodging the question. The question is, why doesn't he straighten the mirror? It's not our fault that it's bent.

The repair process for the mirror begins when we humble ourselves in repentance and faith (sanctification). However, the process is not complete until the end (glorification).

[billvon 2,397]

>God is in fact omniscient. He also knows the nature of man perfectly. He knows what
>man will choose before he does so. Because God knows what man will choose does not
>mean that he controls what he will do.

Right, he merely knows what you will do. Therefore you are powerless to make any other choice.

>But it's still his free choice even if it is predictable.

He is not free to make any other choice. He cannot; it is impossible, for doing so would prove God is not omniscient.

>He said that pigs in a barnyard get up every day and go to the trough full of slop to eat.
>You could place a gourmet meal on a platter on the other side of the barnyard but they
>will consistently choose the slop. They'll even roll around in it. It's predictable. They're
>pigs. They do what pigs do.

And some pigs, completely randomly, will wander around, find the better food and eat it. One pig might be lame and not be able to push through the scrum to the trough. One pig might be blind and bumble around and find the better food. One pig might just get lost, or not get with the program that morning. One pig might attack another pig for no apparent reason, driving him away from the trough and towards the platter. (Pigs are pretty disorganized; visit a farm sometime and watch them in action.)

But in your case, you have decided that will never, ever happen. If you were in fact omniscient, and decided that pigs will never make any other choice, either you have removed their free will or you're not really omniscient.

[jaybird18c 4]

Happy Easter!

This is the most biblically accurate gospel explanation I have ever heard. By Paul David Washer.

https://youtu.be/TXOWyjB7d24

[JoeWeber 2,299]

jakee

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God did not create man to sin.

That can't be true, because he would have known when creating man what the result would be. If he didn't want humans to sin, he could have created humans differently.

Like the guy with the girl's name (which you now concede you were wrong about) said, everything that happens is what he planned to happen.

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God allowed it to occur for reasons mentioned before.

Not allowed it, caused it.

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God made you in his own image. It's like looking into a mirror. However, one which is warped by sin, brought about by man, not God, making the reflection distorted.

Again, it's incredibly obvious that you're dodging the question. The question is, why doesn't he straighten the mirror? It's not our fault that it's bent.

Jakee, you need to believe it to believe it, believe it, or not. Get it? No? Try repeating it and humming a tune. That always works. You see, it's all spelled out in words that can mean anything you want in #Romans, #Corinthians and #Deuteronomy. And those truth statements are perfectly confirmed by #Numbers, #Proverbs and #Nehemiah. Of course, #Exodus is on hold pending the elimination of the field of Archeology. Feel free to PM me for additional help.

[jakee 1,254]

jaybird18c

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That can't be true, because he would have known when creating man what the result would be. If he didn't want humans to sin, he could have created humans differently.

God always knew what the result would be.

Right, because he chose to make us in the exact manner that would lead to this result. If he wanted a different result, he would have chosen to make us differently.

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"...he predestined us..."

There you go. The bible disagrees with you.

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The repair process for the mirror begins when we humble ourselves in repentance and faith (sanctification).

Why? It's not our fault the mirror is bent. Why do we need to repent before it can be mended? If it was mended first, we'd have nothing to be repentant about.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jaybird18c 4]

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"...he predestined us..."
There you go. The bible disagrees with you.

Not at all. He predestined to save some. It doesn't apply to all.
The cool thing is, even you have the opportunity to repent and believe. But the point is, with regard to predestination, that no one would have unless God acted on our behalf.

[billvon 2,397]

>The cool thing is, even you have the opportunity to repent and believe.

No, he doesn't - not if God saw it wasn't going to happen.

[tonyhays 86]

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#Exodus is on hold pending the elimination of the field of Archeology

In addition to the events of Exodus being dismissed by Jewish archeologists, let's examine Noah's Ark, arguably one of the most influential stories in the bible. I won't delve into the physical impossibility of fitting that many animals into such a small space, nor the required amout of food for such a lengthy journey. Nor will I question how did all the fresh water fish survive, where did all the water go once the water receded, or did water not refract light prior to the flood. After all, the theist will simply shrug their shoulders and respond with some garbage about miracles and God's power.

There are at least four civilizations that existed prior, during, and after the events of the alleged Flood. The Chinese neolithic dynasty, the multiple Egyptian dynasties, Mesopotamians, & the Sumerians. All have a continuous line of recorded history with zero gap to indicate being wiped out and starting from scratch.

Then there's "Old Tjikko", a 9500 year old tree in Sweden.

And also this little nugget, a study on the results of a population bottleneck some 12,000 years ago. "This event caused an extreme reduction of the cheetah’s genetic diversity, known as a population bottleneck, resulting in the physical homogeneity of today’s cheetahs. Poor sperm quality, focal palatine erosion, susceptibility to the same infectious diseases, and kinked tails characteristic of the majority of the world’s cheetahs are all ramifications of the low genetic diversity within the global cheetah population.".......now if the flood had occurred, this would be apparent in all mammals, not just the cheetah.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC46261/

Two massive stories of the bible easily debunked, why not go for the trifecta? How 'bout the story of Adam and Eve? According to biblical scholars the events happened sometime around 4000 bc, ~6000 years ago. Let's see what the science has to say about it...

"Genetic variation at most loci examined in human populations indicates that the (effective) population size has been approximately 10(4) (i.e., 10,000) for the past 1 Myr and that individuals have been genetically united rather tightly. Also suggested is that the population size has never dropped to a few individuals, even in a single generation. These impose important requirements for the hypotheses for the origin of modern humans: a relatively large population size and frequent migration if populations were geographically subdivided. Any hypothesis that assumes a small number of founding individuals throughout the late Pleistocene can be rejected."

Listed below is the paper that it's from. There are two more that confirm it, but I could have listed more. So genetics has conclusively stated that there hasn't been a population bottleneck of less than 10,000 breeding pairs in the last half million years......that is in direct conflict with biblical chronology...both Adam and Eve(one pair) and Noah's ark(4 pair)

Once Adam and Eve are relegated to mythology the purpose of Jesus falls apart. Four of the biggest stories in the bible disproven by science. Those who continue to claim the bible is "true" or the "inerrant word of God" should pick up another book(s).

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/10/1/2/1030040
http://www.genetics.org/content/genetics/147/4/1977.full.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11158380

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[jakee 1,254]

jaybird18c

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"...he predestined us..."
There you go. The bible disagrees with you.

Not at all. He predestined to save some.

Ok... I'll dumb it down even further for you... the operative part is "he predestined".

This is in direct opposition to your statements that God has foreknowledge but does not foreordain. Foreordination is predestination.

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The cool thing is, even you have the opportunity to repent and believe.

Well, I do if god made me with a nature that would lead to that. But if god decided I was not to be saved, he'd have made me with that nature instead. So if I've got the nature god decided he wanted me to have, I'm following the path god decided he wanted me to follow, and I'll either be saved or not depending on what god wanted my destiny to be.

According to what you're saying, I don't have the opportunity to change that, I'm just floating along the path that has already been set.

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But the point is, with regard to predestination

The point is you are trying to tell us that our actions are not predestined by god, and you've just posted a bible quote that says they are.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,397]

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There are at least four civilizations that existed prior, during, and after the events of the alleged Flood. The Chinese neolithic dynasty, the multiple Egyptian dynasties, Mesopotamians, & the Sumerians. All have a continuous line of recorded history with zero gap to indicate being wiped out and starting from scratch.

I think it is very likely that the Noah's Ark myth started from a story of someone who _experienced_ something like that - and then extrapolated to the whole world being flooded.

One such possibility is the flooding of the Black Sea. As sea levels rose around 5600 BC, the Mediterranean eventually flooded over a rocky pass (now called the Bosphorus Strait.) The sea began to flood a lake today known as the Black Sea. Water levels in the lake rose swiftly by 100-300 feet as the Mediterranean eroded away the rock by the strait. This meant that if someone were standing by the shore of that lake, and started treading water as the level of the lake rose, he could eventually find himself dozens of miles from shore as the waters rose on the flat land around the lake. Combine that with a big rainstorm and it would be easy to see how a prehistoric farmer, saving his family and some of his livestock on a raft, would think that the entire world had been flooded by a big storm.

There are many places on the globe where scenes like the above could have played out as sea levels rose between 7000 and 20,000 years ago. Then add a few thousand years of oral tradition, and the human tendency to embellish stories, and you end up with Noah's Ark.