School shooting solutions

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Well I for one thought your response and questions were quite reasonable.

My daughter has had the experience of being assaulted in the classroom, though that is rare. On one occasion a student struck her with a chair. It's never been a targeted attack directed at her, more a matter of a student "exploding" over something in class and she gets in the way trying to get the student to settle down. There is a lot of variation between schools and classes. Physically unruly students were not unusual when she taught CP (college prep, basically the lowest academic level) classes, which is where new teachers cut their teeth, but she has since been promoted to teaching AP and ACP classes (more academically challenging) where the students tend to be more engaged and less inclined to make trouble.

Regarding my question about teachers confronting a heavily armed shooter, I didn't mean to imply the teacher should go out and look for trouble. Of course they should barricade the door and stay with their students**. I suppose a shot or two as the shooter is trying to get in the classroom would encourage him to skip that room. The reality is, though, that teachers and students drill this enough that (in the last several incidents anyway) almost all the damage is done in the first classroom or two, where the shooter has the element of surprise. After that doors are locked, students are hidden in cupboards and closets, and targets become much harder for the shooter to find. So if arming teachers is to make a big difference in the casualty count, he would have to be confronted with armed resistance in the first few seconds of the attack, as he enters the first classroom. That essentially is asking the teacher to be able to switch gears from teaching, say, economics, evaluate the situation, draw their weapon and fire accurately, all in the time it takes the shooter to open a door, step into the room and pull the trigger. Basically they would have to have the skill set of the hero gunslinger in an old fashioned Western, plus be able to teach economics (or biology, or whatever) all day and coach swimming or soccer or whatever all evening. I guess in addition to grading essays and making the next weeks lesson plans on the weekend, and putting in a few hours coaching, they could add in a few hours on the shooting range and practicing simulations of attacks.

I do think the teachers who work with these students every day are in a better position than almost anyone to notice behavior changes that might signal danger. I think there is a problem translating that awareness that "something seems not quite right" into constructive action. The student should be very gently questioned about how they are doing, in a non-confrontational atmosphere, and if they are having problems some constructive non-judgmental interventions should be attempted, in collaboration with the parents of course unless the patent(s) are the source of the problem. With the right approach this could circumvent not only at least some school shootings, which are actually rare events, but also much more common tragedies including suicides (which claim many more lives than school shootings do) and dropping out (which might not kill, but it compromises the student's life long term). Basically, schools need to have the resources to treat students as people, not as inmates or "products".

**By the way, that teacher who has been criticized in the press in the last couple of days for locking the classroom door and leaving students in the hallway was just doing what they are trained to do. When someone is pounding on the door and shouting "let me in" the teacher has no way of knowing who is at the door. If they open the door to the shooter it's likely that everyone in the classroom will be killed.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[gowlerk 1,902]

wmw999

That requires solving the issue of unemployed and underemployed (mostly) young (mostly) men who don’t see a path for themselves to what they view as success. Something a little better than “lock them up and throw away the key.”

Wendy P.

You mean like the Vegas shooter? Blaming youth is incorrect, although you are correct that it almost exclusively involves men. Other countries have unemployed youth, but few mass shootings. I wonder what is wrong in America. What could the difference be?

The underlying problem is the gun culture. It is so painfully obvious. Why are all y'all so unwilling to just admit that?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[tkhayes 124]

^^Bingo

not only the culture, but on top of that the easy access to weapons that allow people to fulfill the fantasies.

Lots of countries have cultural issues and fantasies, American violent movies, video games and their own violent movies...

The fantasy cannot be fulfilled because the weapons are restricted.... it remains a fantasy, unfulfillable.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Thanks.

And just to be clear, I don't believe arming teachers will solve the problem.

It would not be for everyone, and maybe not even for every school. The individual choices that must be considered are both numerous and very critical. 'Individual' meaning both for each school and for each teacher.

But it's one way to potentially reduce the carnage should something like this happen.

The odds of a teacher being in just the right place at just the right time to stop a shooter before anyone got killed would be well beyond winning the lottery.

However, there have been a couple instances where an armed school staff member (principal in one case, janitor in another) was able to retrieve a gun from their car and confront a shooter well before they would have stopped on their own.
Before anyone asks, no I can't find links to these. They were a long time ago, before everything was on line and the archives to the sources aren't available to me (not unless I pay for them).

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

However, there have been a couple instances where an armed school staff member (principal in one case, janitor in another) was able to retrieve a gun from their car and confront a shooter well before they would have stopped on their own.

I remember a couple of such incidents as well.

To be clear, I am not completely opposed to allowing well trained teachers who volunteer for the responsibility to carry in the classroom. I imagine a small proportion of the people who end up working in schools might have a suitable background. I just don't want it to become the ONLY response to the problem, and it seems to me that is what I am hearing from some quarters. I think it won't be very effective, and it will likely detract from other less "macho" responses, such as better counselling and psychological/psychiatric services within the school system that can also help with suicide prevention and other issues. Also I don't want it become another one of those "side" things that you have to be willing to do to get a teaching job.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[DJL 232]

We're probably at a moot point with any of this since we all know you can't TELL teachers to start packing heat. It'll be exactly the same percentage of people who carry as do carry in normal society, which isn't many at all. Maybe a few more would want to have a weapon always in a safe in their room should the occasion ever arise and that would mitigate the issue of bringing it to and from their home. Maybe it would be a few less because teachers just aren't the type to want to have a firearm around their students regardless of the safeguards.

Anyway, here in Virginia very few people open carry, very few people carry concealed and that number is so low that I go weeks without seeing someone with a firearm. Typically it's just a dude from the DZ who is 2A-All-the-Way.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[councilman24 36]

But the odds of a teacher being there would be much higher than a police officer.

The words shouldn't be 'arming teachers' implying all but 'allowing teachers to be armed' allowing choice. We've heard a lot about putting more police officers in more schools. But one thing to remember is that there are many civilians who are more familiar with firearms and defensive shooting than the standard police officer. I looked up our states annual re-qualification requirements. The long rang pistol requirement is 3 rounds in a torso target at 15 yards in 90 secs. A minute and a half. And they get more than one chance. Glock Sport Shooting Federation runs one of the simplest pistol competitions around. One course of fire are targets at 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards. 2 rounds each for time and accuracy. 3 times. Total of 30 rounds, 6 at 25 yards. The 84th place civilian competitor, fastest with excellent accuracy shot all 30 rounds, 3 groups of 10, in 58 secs with the equivalent of one miss. He may actually have hit all the targets with all rounds, not possible to tell from results. The fastest civilian AND police/military shooters shot all 30 rounds, 3 groups of 10, in about 20 seconds. When I shot one of these competitions I placed 15th or so with no practice in 6 months and around 20 warm up rounds. I probably took around 35 seconds for the 30 rounds.

This is in no way to denigrate police officers. Many are very good shooters, many are trained to a higher level. But firearms are a very small part of their job and the required level of expertise is not particularly high. This is not to say by any means all civilian conceal carry license holders or others are better. Or even that many are better. In my state there is NO proficiency requirement for a Concealed Pistol License. A few hours of class room which often includes inaccurate information and something less than 50 yards down range. NONE have to hit the target. It just to show the applicant can and has make a firearm function. But we don't get to discriminate against ignorance, lack of skill or even wannabe mall SEALs. BUT there are civilians trained to an equal or higher level of firearms skill and many in target discrimination and background identification.

It's not cops are better than any teacher. It's use any resource available. Can firearms in schools be kept out of kids hands? The ones the cops are wearing seem to be.

BTW these are not race guns. They are stock Glocks perhaps with aftermarket notch and post open sites.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[gowlerk 1,902]

Quote

It'll be exactly the same percentage of people who carry as do carry in normal society, which isn't many at all.

There 16.3 million active conceal carry permits in the USA. Over 429K of those are in Virginia.

Quote

Data from the Crime Prevention Research Center, a pro-gun rights think tank, indicate that there are about 16.5 million active concealed carry permits in the U.S., only 182,000 of which have been issued by the populous states of California and New York. “Outside the restrictive states of California and New York, about 8 percent of the adult population has a permit,” a July report from the center noted.

They are increasing at a rate 1.6 million every year lately.

Quote

Studies suggest, however, that only a fraction of Americans who conceal carry actually do so on a routine basis. A recent study of 2015 survey data estimated that 9 million Americans carry at least once a month, while only 3 million do every day—about 1.2 percent of the American adult population.

It's a good thing most people leave them at home most of the time. Don't count on that staying the same forever though.

Quote

The latest statistics on concealed carry shows that minorities with permits are increasing at a rate 75% faster than whites.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jcd11235 0]

wolfriverjoe

… the idea of a student basically mugging a teacher for a gun is not all that real.

It's very real. It's just improbable. However, with millions of students in schools, particular improbable events can be expected to happen somewhat frequently, at essentially random schools.

It's a lot like Powerball. It's extremely unlikely that any particular ticket wins the jackpot, but is likely that there will frequently be tickets sold that do win the jackpot, due to the large quantity of tickets sold.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 2,380]

>However, with millions of students in schools, particular improbable events can be
>expected to happen somewhat frequently, at essentially random schools.

Indeed. If something is a million in one shot, giving that something millions of opportunities pretty much guarantees its occurrence.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

DJL

Anyway, here in Virginia very few people open carry, very few people carry concealed and that number is so low that I go weeks without seeing someone with a firearm. Typically it's just a dude from the DZ who is 2A-All-the-Way.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know 'very few people carry concealed'?

You say 'weeks without seeing a firearm'. How do you know you are seeing them, or more accurately that you 'aren't not' seeing them.

The whole idea of concealed carry is that people don't see it.

While some stuff makes fairly obvious bulges (shoulder holsters are the worst), some are quite discreet.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[DJL 232]

wolfriverjoe

***
Anyway, here in Virginia very few people open carry, very few people carry concealed and that number is so low that I go weeks without seeing someone with a firearm. Typically it's just a dude from the DZ who is 2A-All-the-Way.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know 'very few people carry concealed'?

You say 'weeks without seeing a firearm'. How do you know you are seeing them, or more accurately that you 'aren't not' seeing them.

The whole idea of concealed carry is that people don't see it.

While some stuff makes fairly obvious bulges (shoulder holsters are the worst), some are quite discreet.

Ha, true, the proof is almost unprovable. I should say that I know a quantity of people who have a concealed carry permit and they don't exercise it except on rare occasions and between them AND the open carry crowd I rarely see a weapon. Richmond, Northern VA, and Virginia Beach regions. They have it because they run restaurants and stores and do want it for late night/closing time.

I support that right and want to maintain it, just making a point as to the frequency of a firearm being available in the normal day to day.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

DJL

Ha, true, the proof is almost unprovable. I should say that I know a quantity of people who have a concealed carry permit and they don't exercise it except on rare occasions and between them AND the open carry crowd I rarely see a weapon. Richmond, Northern VA, and Virginia Beach regions. They have it because they run restaurants and stores and do want it for late night/closing time.

I support that right and want to maintain it, just making a point as to the frequency of a firearm being available in the normal day to day.

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.

I know a fair amount of people with carry permits, and probably a 'handful' carry on a regular basis.

One guy, who works at a pawn shop and carries a large Beretta 92 in a shoulder rig, is not subtle at all about it. I will occasionally ask "when is the doctor going to remove that growth under your arm?"

The rest carry small to medium stuff, as big as a compact 45. Unless you know it's there and know what you are looking for, you won't be able to tell. With a couple of them, even if you do know what and where, you don't see it.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[nolhtairt 0]

Not replying to the last post here...

There was a school shooting at Huffman HS in Birmingham, AL a couple days ago. All indications seem to show it was accidental. Dude brought a gun to school to show it off to a girl, and it fired, hitting the girl. He tried to put the gun away so he could help her and ended up shooting himself in the leg. The girl died at the hospital. Guy was treated at the same hospital and is now in jail.

The kicker here is, the school IS equipped with metal detectors, but they were not being used.

[jcd11235 0]

nolhtairt

The kicker here is, the school IS equipped with metal detectors, but they were not being used.

If schools are equipped with metal detectors, but aren't using them, it suggests that metal detectors probably aren't a practical part of the solution.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[yoink 321]

jcd11235

***The kicker here is, the school IS equipped with metal detectors, but they were not being used.

If schools are equipped with metal detectors, but aren't using them, it suggests that metal detectors probably aren't a practical part of the solution.

I'm not sure about that just yet. It's seems a bit early to make that sweeping a judgement call.

FWIW I think that a society that seriously says 'we should put metal detectors in schools to stop kids bringing guns in' and think that that's a great answer is pretty sick.

[jcd11235 0]

yoink

I'm not sure about that just yet. It's seems a bit early to make that sweeping a judgement call.

I'm not assuming that multiple schools are, in fact, equipped with metal detectors but aren't using them. But if that turns out to be the case, then it would strongly suggest that metal detectors in schools just aren't practical. It might be cost. It might be inconvenience.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[DJL 232]

jcd11235

***I'm not sure about that just yet. It's seems a bit early to make that sweeping a judgement call.

I'm not assuming that multiple schools are, in fact, equipped with metal detectors but aren't using them. But if that turns out to be the case, then it would strongly suggest that metal detectors in schools just aren't practical. It might be cost. It might be inconvenience.

I have to imagine that they there's a point of practicality too. At the beginning and end of school when there's a swarm of kids going through the doors it would be difficult to use them. I can't imagine an entire school full of children passing through detectors within the 1/2 hr span that they arrive before school starts. They may also only use them if they're catching wind that there are some beefs that may spill over into the school.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Darius11 12]

The only part i agree with is the scientific approach which i find impossible to do in the current environment and unfortunately this time its mostly due to liberals and there feelings out weighing logic.

What has changed in the past 25 years?

More kids are on doctor prescribed drugs then ever, but no media outlet will touch that. its all about an ar 15

Lack of fathers? and the demonizing of masculinity. We live in a world that acknowledging THE FACT that a mother CAN NOT replace a father gets you flames but off course a woman can do EVERYTHING a man can.
Yea i wonder why so many men might feel worthless....Is that something that can even be brought up for factual discussion? No

no support for young men any where and if your white well fuck you figure it out.

No play time no freedom for kids. too many controls.

what about religious morality? it doesn't have to be the bad kind i know many people who have learned good lessons like hey don't kill people from such sources.

how about time outs and lack of discipline yes i also mean physical, it doesn't have to be abuse. it seems no one can understand nuances any more.

We cant even acknowledge facts! scientific biological facts in the current environment. You know like there is a difference between males and females. That's has become controversy!

How can you get to any facts in this environment of feelings trump facts?
Most people and yes they seem to be mostly liberals cant acknowledge the facts about life that do not fit there utopic agenda.

Guns have been around, Violent art has been around,

Again the way to approach this is what has changed in the past 25 years or so? and our society needs to have the GUTS to actually look at the facts and acknowledge that the decisions you make matter! Family Matters! Fathers matter! morality matters!

This no bullies BS is too much too.
Are you teaching your kids to learn how to live in this world you know with ass holes and bullies? or a cartoon?

Its not hard to see whats wrong, its hard for some to take responsibility and admit that they fucked up.
What feels good often is not what leads to good results. hardships are needed specially for kids/young life is not easy! learn to deal your going to have to any way.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[DanG 1]

The older generation has been complaining about the degradation of society since the Greeks.

Do think the US is the only country with problems associated with divorce, bullying, "liberals", and loss of religion? Europe is just as bad or worse on all those metrics.

The easy access to extremely effective weapons is the difference.

- Dan G

[billvon 2,380]

>What has changed in the past 25 years?

You mean that might bear on this problem?

Greater accessibility of guns.
Greater accessibility, and speed, of media - both locally and on the world stage.
More class stratification.
More facile use of fear to manipulate the public. (Driven by better marketing tools)

"More kids are on doctor prescribed drugs then ever . . .Lack of fathers . . .demonizing of masculinity . . . no support for young men any where. . . No play time no freedom for kids. . . We cant even acknowledge facts"

All of those things have been blamed for centuries. During the Industrial Revolution authors lamented the loss of childhood; kids no longer had time to play, they went right into working in factories. During the 1960's editorials blamed the lack of strong fathers for the hippie culture of irresponsibility and unemployment - and the use of drugs that destroyed one's mind.

>This no bullies BS is too much too. Are you teaching your kids to learn how to live in this
>world you know with ass holes and bullies? or a cartoon?

Why do you think those are mutually exclusive? You reduce bullying and abuse AND you teach kids how to deal with assholes.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Bill,

Quote

Greater accessibility of guns.

IMO our access to guns has not changed.

The guns have changed; they are now mass killing devices.

Jerry Baumchen

[billvon 2,380]

>IMO our access to guns has not changed.
>The guns have changed; they are now mass killing devices.

Fair enough. I guess a better way to say it would be "better access to a wider range of guns."

[DJL 232]

Darius11

The only part i agree with is the scientific approach which i find impossible to do in the current environment and unfortunately this time its mostly due to liberals and there feelings out weighing logic.

What has changed in the past 25 years?

More kids are on doctor prescribed drugs then ever, but no media outlet will touch that. its all about an ar 15

Lack of fathers? and the demonizing of masculinity. We live in a world that acknowledging THE FACT that a mother CAN NOT replace a father gets you flames but off course a woman can do EVERYTHING a man can.
Yea i wonder why so many men might feel worthless....Is that something that can even be brought up for factual discussion? No

no support for young men any where and if your white well fuck you figure it out.

No play time no freedom for kids. too many controls.

what about religious morality? it doesn't have to be the bad kind i know many people who have learned good lessons like hey don't kill people from such sources.

how about time outs and lack of discipline yes i also mean physical, it doesn't have to be abuse. it seems no one can understand nuances any more.

We cant even acknowledge facts! scientific biological facts in the current environment. You know like there is a difference between males and females. That's has become controversy!

How can you get to any facts in this environment of feelings trump facts?
Most people and yes they seem to be mostly liberals cant acknowledge the facts about life that do not fit there utopic agenda.

Guns have been around, Violent art has been around,

Again the way to approach this is what has changed in the past 25 years or so? and our society needs to have the GUTS to actually look at the facts and acknowledge that the decisions you make matter! Family Matters! Fathers matter! morality matters!

This no bullies BS is too much too.
Are you teaching your kids to learn how to live in this world you know with ass holes and bullies? or a cartoon?

Its not hard to see whats wrong, its hard for some to take responsibility and admit that they fucked up.
What feels good often is not what leads to good results. hardships are needed specially for kids/young life is not easy! learn to deal your going to have to any way.

I'm not going to pick through them but I'm not buying it. Boys feeling marginalized? Haven't seen girls going on mass killings for being marginalized. No Bullies, BS? Plenty of people have never had to deal with a bully. Hardship is one thing, bullies are another.

Also if you're gong to categorically refer to a group as being daft

Quote

The only part i agree with is the scientific approach which i find impossible to do in the current environment and unfortunately this time its mostly due to liberals and there feelings out weighing logic.

then you at least have to deliver the message with correct grammar and spelling.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[jcd11235 0]

Darius11

The only part i agree with is the scientific approach …

… which you immediately abandoned with the remainder of your post.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!