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billvon

School shooting solutions

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Lots of "fix it fast" solutions are being proposed to cut down on school shootings. I don't think any of them will work, any more than a one week diet will get you to lose weight in the long term. This is a problem that has been brewing for decades, and it will take more than a quick fix to solve it. As many here have pointed out, just taking away a parent's gun doesn't solve the underlying problems of disaffection and alienation that drives many of these shootings.

The most worrisome proposals I've heard include arming teachers, buying bulletproof doors and having much more intensive screening of students. This pits enforcers (teachers) against threats (students) to be killed if they get out of line - and nothing will make our problems worse than that attitude. Further, reinforced classrooms and more screening will cost money, and that money will inevitably come from school funding. And that will damage the cause of education, which will lead to more poverty and more alienation and disaffectation of students, thus exacerbating the problem.

Another thing that just won't work in isolation is "better scrutiny." I recently heard an interview with a school psychologist that went something like this -

"After every school shooting I get a spate of requests to talk to some of our students because they seem angry, alienated or disaffected. But that describes about 10% of our student population, because that's common in teens. There's no easy way to 'fix' them, and often attention focused on them because they are seen as dangerous threats just makes the problem worse."

So what the solution has to look like IMO -

- Treat it like a public health problem, which it is, and come up with a long term solution. The first step is to understand the problem. Task the CDC with studying the problem - study causes, do trials for mitigations and do the epidemiological analysis necessary to better understand what drives it, and more importantly what works and what doesn't to mitigate it.

- Improve schools in general; make them better schools. Poverty and crime are common factors in the backgrounds of violent criminals. Better education, better life training and better preparation for either later education, trade schools or employment will move some kids out of the cycle of poverty and lessen the likelihood of later violence (or violence in _their_ children.)

- Improve schools in specific ways that focus on the causes of alienation - bullying, harassment and assault in schools. Regularly evaluate conditions in schools to mitigate negative influences on students before they become pervasive. Keep relationships between students and teachers positive, so when a student sees the early signs of problems (someone who brings a gun or knife to school to "show it off" for example) teachers get involved before it becomes a threat.

- Improve school mental health care and counseling. Have the resources to be able to support ALL kids with issues of alienation or anger (which most students have at some point.) This will not only improve overall mental health of student populations, but remove the stigma of being singled out as a dangerous threat. Counseling is no longer a punishment to be endured when someone else snitches on you, it's a common event that's not a big deal.

- Improve information sharing across the board. Make it easier for school officials and counselors to access information about people who have been violent towards, or have threatened, others. This allows counselors to ensure that people who need help get it.

There are also a few things we can do to prevent school shootings if the above fail, which they will on occasion - nothing works 100%. In those cases:

Allow a more rapid response to someone who is becoming a serious threat. Come up with a legal means of removing weapons from the residence of someone who has a high likelihood of being a threat, as evaluated by school psychiatric staff.

Restrict the availability of weapons that allow mass shootings. (There's been plenty of discussion here about that already so I'll leave that for those threads.) However it should be pointed out that this is a _last_ line of defense, not the first.

The two most important things we can do, IMO, are 1) to start studying it as a public health problem, and use all the tools that science has available to study it and figure out what works and 2) improve schools so we no longer breed this behavior. Gun control and other legal remedies will still be important, but can not solve the underlying problem.

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Hooknswoop

I agree with this 100%.

Derek V



Me too, not terribly surprisingly.

Go after the root causes.

Try to understand why these people do these things and address that.

I will, however, support some sort of actual armed defense in the schools.
Cops (resource officer) are one idea, regardless of how well it worked in Florida.
Teachers are another. Despite all of the ridicule, there are some teachers who are in favor of this. Not all, not most, probably not even 'many'.

But there have been enough times where some teachers in these situations have shown incredible bravery. The professor who held the door shut at VA Tech, at the cost of his own life, the security guard/coach in Florida who died trying to protect the kids, there have been others.

Properly trained (to the level of police officers at a minimum), and understanding the entirety of the task they are taking on. The fact that they may have to shoot a kid in order to save others. The fact that their actions may take innocent lives, the fact that they may die in the process. The tactical fact that they aren't going to 'go out and get' the shooter, but will have an ability to stop him if there's no other alternative.

It's not a step to be taken lightly, but for those who are willing to take on the responsibility, its a better option than "lock the door and hope he doesn't find us."

Civilian carry in the US has become a reality. Millions of people have permits. Some of them carry on a regular basis. Yet we have not seen the 'blood in the streets' predicted by some. We haven't seen a whole lot of 'heroic defenders' shooting bad guys either.
The reality is that that sort of situation is pretty rare.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Yet we have not seen the 'blood in the streets' predicted by some. We haven't seen a whole lot of 'heroic defenders' shooting bad guys either.
The reality is that that sort of situation is pretty rare.



As of March 4th, for the year

52 mass shootings, defined as at least 4 injured and/or killed, resulting in 179 wounded and 100 dead.

I wouldn't call roughly 1 a day as something rare. If something happens every day or even every other day, then that is pretty frequent.

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Treat it like a public health problem, which it is, and come up with a long term solution. The first step is to understand the problem. Task the CDC with studying the problem - study causes, do trials for mitigations and do the epidemiological analysis necessary to better understand what drives it, and more importantly what works and what doesn't to mitigate it.



How about studying it without preset qualifications? Surprised to hear a scientist call for a study with preconceived ideas where the solution should fall.

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Properly trained (to the level of police officers at a minimum), and understanding the entirety of the task they are taking on. The fact that they may have to shoot a kid in order to save others. The fact that their actions may take innocent lives, the fact that they may die in the process. The tactical fact that they aren't going to 'go out and get' the shooter, but will have an ability to stop him if there's no other alternative.

It's not a step to be taken lightly, but for those who are willing to take on the responsibility, its a better option than "lock the door and hope he doesn't find us."

My youngest daughter is a high school teacher. She had some comments on arming teachers:

1. The "kids" in the classroom know everything. You can't hide anything in the classroom without everyone in the class knowing about it withing a couple of days. Where are you going to possibly hide a loaded weapon where no student will be able to get at it, but you can in seconds if need be? Is the teacher responsible if some student gets their hands on the gun?

2. Perhaps you decide to keep the firearm on your person (concealed carry). Now you may become a target of a disgruntled student; they don't have to bring a firearm to the school, they just get their hands on one that is already there. Is a teacher responsible if a student overpowers her and takes her gun? My daughter is about 5 1/2 feet tall, and has many male students in her classes who are well over 6 feet and outweigh her by 50 pounds or more. Does she also need to earn a black belt in some martial art to protect herself against having the gun taken by force? Should she never allow a student to get behind her lest she be knocked down or clobbered with a chair? Just having a gun on her, and the need to protect that weapon, will inevitably change her interaction with her students.

3. Is it realistic to expect someone with a small caliber concealed handgun to take out a much more heavily armed gunman who also has the element of surprise in his favor?

4. Will the teacher be liable if they shoot a cop, a student, or anyone else, mistaking them for the shooter?

5. Will being willing to play such a role become another one of those "extras" that turn out to be all but required to get a teaching job? When my daughter was first looking for a teaching job, she lost out on 3 or 4 jobs because another less qualified applicant (my daughter had 2 degrees vs their 1) had played some sport in high school or college and could volunteer to coach. Will teachers willing to carry in the classroom gain an advantage in the hiring process? If you aren't willing to do so, will that make you unemployable, even though it's not in the job description?

I'm curious what you think.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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The two most important things we can do, IMO, are 1) to start studying it as a public health problem, and use all the tools that science has available to study it and figure out what works and 2) improve schools so we no longer breed this behavior. Gun control and other legal remedies will still be important, but can not solve the underlying problem.

I agree with everything you suggested.

However I'd point out that, when dealing with public health issues, we can do things like predict the level of risk within a population. We can also identify risk factors and as, to the extent that you can associate those risk factors with individuals, identify individuals who may be at increased risk. We cannot say with any degree of certainty exactly who is going to get disease X within the next 30 days, for example. Even if we can identify individuals with elevated risk, there are limits on what we can legally do about it. We can't force people to accept medical/psychiatric treatment, even if they have an obvious mental illness, not to mention most school shooters are not mentally ill in a medical sense.

Improving schools should be a no-brainer, but in the current political climate we seem to be moving in the other direction. Education, like health care, is seen as a privilege and the less well off (unable to afford private school tuition) should just accept whatever crumbs happen to fall from the table.

Something that could help, and be done relatively quickly, is to train teachers to better identify at-risk students, and also to develop more effective (and stigma-free) interventions.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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wolfriverjoe

***I agree with this 100%.

Derek V



Me too, not terribly surprisingly.

Go after the root causes.

Try to understand why these people do these things and address that.

I will, however, support some sort of actual armed defense in the schools.
Cops (resource officer) are one idea, regardless of how well it worked in Florida.
Teachers are another. Despite all of the ridicule, there are some teachers who are in favor of this. Not all, not most, probably not even 'many'.

But there have been enough times where some teachers in these situations have shown incredible bravery. The professor who held the door shut at VA Tech, at the cost of his own life, the security guard/coach in Florida who died trying to protect the kids, there have been others.

Properly trained (to the level of police officers at a minimum), and understanding the entirety of the task they are taking on. The fact that they may have to shoot a kid in order to save others. The fact that their actions may take innocent lives, the fact that they may die in the process. The tactical fact that they aren't going to 'go out and get' the shooter, but will have an ability to stop him if there's no other alternative.

It's not a step to be taken lightly, but for those who are willing to take on the responsibility, its a better option than "lock the door and hope he doesn't find us."

Civilian carry in the US has become a reality. Millions of people have permits. Some of them carry on a regular basis. Yet we have not seen the 'blood in the streets' predicted by some. We haven't seen a whole lot of 'heroic defenders' shooting bad guys either.
The reality is that that sort of situation is pretty rare.

I have a friend that is a teacher at a local high school. He is also and Army vet. He told me that if they started arming teachers he would take the responsibility on very reluctantly. He said that even though he knows it would save other kids lives it would be very hard for him to shoot a student.
You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

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Not a solution, but a piece that students and teachers can start now is two-pronged: have each school semester start with a day or two of relationship-building rather than jumping right into hard-pass schoolwork. Also, 're m kind students that everyone can find a new person to be friendly with. Because sometimes its the bullied outcast, so maybe some of them can be integrated better.
These aren't solutions, but they are something that can be started right away, and they keep people in touch with each other.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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GeorgiaDon

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Properly trained (to the level of police officers at a minimum), and understanding the entirety of the task they are taking on. The fact that they may have to shoot a kid in order to save others. The fact that their actions may take innocent lives, the fact that they may die in the process. The tactical fact that they aren't going to 'go out and get' the shooter, but will have an ability to stop him if there's no other alternative.

It's not a step to be taken lightly, but for those who are willing to take on the responsibility, its a better option than "lock the door and hope he doesn't find us."

My youngest daughter is a high school teacher. She had some comments on arming teachers:

1. The "kids" in the classroom know everything. You can't hide anything in the classroom without everyone in the class knowing about it withing a couple of days. Where are you going to possibly hide a loaded weapon where no student will be able to get at it, but you can in seconds if need be? Is the teacher responsible if some student gets their hands on the gun?

2. Perhaps you decide to keep the firearm on your person (concealed carry). Now you may become a target of a disgruntled student; they don't have to bring a firearm to the school, they just get their hands on one that is already there. Is a teacher responsible if a student overpowers her and takes her gun? My daughter is about 5 1/2 feet tall, and has many male students in her classes who are well over 6 feet and outweigh her by 50 pounds or more. Does she also need to earn a black belt in some martial art to protect herself against having the gun taken by force? Should she never allow a student to get behind her lest she be knocked down or clobbered with a chair? Just having a gun on her, and the need to protect that weapon, will inevitably change her interaction with her students.

3. Is it realistic to expect someone with a small caliber concealed handgun to take out a much more heavily armed gunman who also has the element of surprise in his favor?

4. Will the teacher be liable if they shoot a cop, a student, or anyone else, mistaking them for the shooter?

5. Will being willing to play such a role become another one of those "extras" that turn out to be all but required to get a teaching job? When my daughter was first looking for a teaching job, she lost out on 3 or 4 jobs because another less qualified applicant (my daughter had 2 degrees vs their 1) had played some sport in high school or college and could volunteer to coach. Will teachers willing to carry in the classroom gain an advantage in the hiring process? If you aren't willing to do so, will that make you unemployable, even though it's not in the job description?

I'm curious what you think.

Don



Thanks for a thoughtful and reasonable response.

Those are all good questions and valid concerns.

In order:

1 - No. There should never be a gun 'hidden' in the classroom. Not even in a locked box. As far as students knowing, maybe, maybe not. If the teacher is careful, and doesn't tell anyone, the likelyhood of a gun remaining unknown is pretty good. It's possible some teachers would be 'outed', but not all of them.

2 - This is a concern, but it's also a bit overblown. The anti-gun folks raised the same concern when civilian concealed carry became widespread. AFAIK, it hasn't happened. Or at least not often enough to become publicized.
If a person is that worried about having it taken away, then they could always choose to not be armed.
Just out of curiosity, does she allow any of those 'large males' behind her, or to be alone with her now? Obviously, as a small female, she is at risk for assault.

3 - Not really. But to a large degree, that wouldn't be the point. The trained response to an 'active shooter' situation is "run, hide, fight." That wouldn't change. Get the kids out to safety if possible, secure the classroom if not. Hide the kids as best as possible (cupboard, closet, behind or under furniture), have the armed teacher take up an ambush position on the hinge side of the door. They do NOT go out and 'hunt down' the shooter, they simply have a response if the shooter enters their classroom. There was a professor at VA Tech who held the door closed, at the cost of his own life, while the students jumped out of a window. This would provide at least some defense.
Worst case would be a shooter in a hallway, cafeteria or outside opening fire when an armed teacher is present. In that case, they simply do the best they can. There have been several armed robberies where there was an armed civilian in the background. The cases I know of, the robber(s) simply fled when they started taking fire.

4 - Maybe. The reality of armed civilians is that using deadly force, even in legitimate self defense has a cost, often a high one. Lawyer fees, potential criminal charges, civil liabilities, penalties including prison time. It's part of the reality of choosing to carry a gun.

5 - I don't know. I would hope not, but I honestly hadn't even thought of this.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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>That is is within the confines of mental health and the solution would flow from that.

I don't think it is within the confines of mental health. We should treat it as a public health PROBLEM though, because that's what it is - and thus the study of that public health problem is critical.

I listed several things that, while not guaranteed to solve the problem, at least mitigate factors which are currently linked to school violence (like poverty, bullying and a culture of "them vs us" between students and teachers.) Some affect mental health treatment, some affect the environment in the school, some affect overall education. Further study by the CDC may well demonstrate that one of those mitigations is far more important than the others. Some mitigations may not be effective at all. There may be mitigations we missed. Thus studying the problem is critical to adjust the approach.

So the very first step is to keep the NRA, and organizations like it, from stopping research into the problem.

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Hooknswoop

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Derek,

To be clear, you are on board with "Restrict the availability of weapons that allow mass shootings."

If so, I've misunderstood your position.



Sorry, I agree with 99%.

Derek V



No worries. Posters here don't know that I know and admire you outside of our disagreements here. I do sort of wish you weren't a 1%er though.

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Problems

1. Privacy and limits to the disclosures of personal, medical, educational records to anyone.

2. Money. The senate and the president have agreed there is a national opioid crisis. Yet not budgeted a cent. They have both stated that guns are not the problem. Neither has stated that school shootings is a problem.

3. Removing weapons from a home, from anyone who has not committed a crime. Flies in the face of the second amendment. In addition the actions of a child or relative could certainly not inhibit a constitutional right of a separate party. Parent or otherwise.

Otherwise IMO everything else is on point as stated in OP.

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Here's a summary of why it's a difficult issue to research objectively:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/02/gun-violence-public-health/553430/

"The National Rifle Association had pushed for the amendment, after public-health researchers produced a spate of studies suggesting that, for example, having a gun in the house increased risk of homicide and suicide. It deemed the research politically motivated. Gun-rights advocates zeroed in on statements like that of Mark Rosenberg, then the director of the CDC’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control. In response to the early ’90s crime wave, Rosenberg had said in 1994, “We need to revolutionize the way we look at guns, like what we did with cigarettes ... It used to be that smoking was a glamour symbol—cool, sexy, macho. Now it is dirty, deadly—and banned.”


The actual amendment sponsored by Jay Dickey, a congressman from Arkansas, did not explicitly forbid research into gun-related deaths, just advocacy. But the Congress also lowered the CDC’s budget by the exact amount it spent on such research. Message received. It’s had a chilling effect on the entire field for decades."
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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wolfriverjoe

If the teacher is careful, and doesn't tell anyone, the likelyhood of a gun remaining unknown is pretty good. It's possible some teachers would be 'outed', but not all of them.

2 - This is a concern, but it's also a bit overblown.





You're being told by directly a teacher, someone with experience in the field, that a certain thing is likely to happen and your reply is 'I don't think it is'?
What experience are you basing that on?

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yoink

*** If the teacher is careful, and doesn't tell anyone, the likelyhood of a gun remaining unknown is pretty good. It's possible some teachers would be 'outed', but not all of them.

2 - This is a concern, but it's also a bit overblown.



You're being told by directly a teacher, someone with experience in the field, that a certain thing is likely to happen and your reply is 'I don't think it is'?
What experience are you basing that on?

There is the case that schools aren't homogeneous across the US, there are actually some where a teacher could carry with no issues but there are many many many more where what this teacher is saying is fact. Some classrooms barely have a desk for the teacher to sit at and you can assume that the kids know what's in every drawer and cabinet. They're inquisitive and push the boundaries, it's in their nature. A weapon is an EXTREMELY interesting thing to these minds and you can guarantee that if a loaded gun gets into the hands of a group of high school kids there's a ticking clock to when it gets fired. And those are the good kids. You cannot have a firearm in a school without a teacher being 10 feet away from where it's locked in a safe. Nevermind that teachers are humans and can possibly leave it out.

I've seen a high school kid fight off two cops and a coach and there are many times that a random teacher will need to get in the middle of an altercation and take the punches. You don't want a sidearm dangling from that teacher's hip. Children can be like caged animals and they make the wrong move when they feel cornered. When I was coaching high school kids I lost one player because someone had weed in his car and he freaked out and led police on a high speed chase, another was caught breaking into cars to get money for a gambling debt he got himself into with the a local latino gang. These were cracker ass little white boys with rich parents who went on to normal lives, no emotional issues just something that got over their heads.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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yoink

*** If the teacher is careful, and doesn't tell anyone, the likelyhood of a gun remaining unknown is pretty good. It's possible some teachers would be 'outed', but not all of them.

2 - This is a concern, but it's also a bit overblown.





You're being told by directly a teacher, someone with experience in the field, that a certain thing is likely to happen and your reply is 'I don't think it is'?
What experience are you basing that on?

Well, I'm being told by GeorgiaDon, who was told by his daughter.
Not sure if that counts as "directly."

And my quote was taken a bit out of context.

The concern of a gun being taken from a teacher is very real.
If the gun falls into the wrong hands, the potential for death or severe injury is almost certain.

However, the idea of a student basically mugging a teacher for a gun is not all that real. Again, that was a concern raised when concealed carry for civilians was becoming common and it really hasn't happened that I know of.
Some teachers would not be able to keep the gun a secret. Maybe they shouldn't have one.
Some teachers would. Smaller guns, deep concealment (not very fast to access, but that really isn't an issue), would help in that regard.

And those teachers who are at risk for being disarmed would have to be cognizant of what sort of situations they put themselves into when armed (not everyone would carry every day).

My personal experience as a public school teacher is zero.

But I have had this discussion with several current and retired middle and elementary school teachers. People who do have direct experience in this. To a large degree, they feel that if it is going to be done, it has to be done correctly and carefully. But it can be done safely.
Although, I must say that these teachers were all at the gun range or are friends through the gun range, so they are all 'pro-gun' to begin with.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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why are we only talking about school shootings? What about all the other shootings which far outnumber the school shootings every year.

How about we address gun violence and stop compartmentalizing things much to the enjoyment of the NRA and pro-gun lobby. They love it when we distract ourselves from the real issues.

Address gun violence as a whole, solve gun violence and eh school shootings will most likely be resolved as well.

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That requires solving the issue of unemployed and underemployed (mostly) young (mostly) men who don’t see a path for themselves to what they view as success. Something a little better than “lock them up and throw away the key.”

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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>why are we only talking about school shootings?

Because that is the subject of the thread.

>What about all the other shootings which far outnumber the school shootings every year.

Addressing poverty (via better education) and addressing alienation and disaffection in schools will help reduce violence as well - long after the person has graduated from high school.

>How about we address gun violence and stop compartmentalizing things much to the
>enjoyment of the NRA and pro-gun lobby.

Go for it.

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