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billvon

Trump's policy on 'detaining' children

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In my opinion, "Make America Great Again" has meant to a time when these United States were the pinnacle of respect



Then you should be extremely worried about the job Trump is doing;)
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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BIGUN

"Start by caring more about your country than your party."



That's exactly what those criticizing the new procedures are doing. And exactly the opposite of what those supporting the new procedures are doing.
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jakee

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In my opinion, "Make America Great Again" has meant to a time when these United States were the pinnacle of respect



Then you should be extremely worried about the job Trump is doing;)


Not really. With our form of government; there's enough checks and balances that JoJo the dog-faced boy could sit in that seat for four years. ;)
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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BIGUN

***

Quote

In my opinion, "Make America Great Again" has meant to a time when these United States were the pinnacle of respect



Then you should be extremely worried about the job Trump is doing;)


Not really. With our form of government; there's enough checks and balances that JoJo the dog-faced boy could sit in that seat for four years. ;)

There are zero checks and balances between Trump's mouth and Twitter account and the outside world. If you do think it's important that America is the pinnacle of global respect, then I'll say again that you should be very, very worried about Trump:D
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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>But, that's just it. It has been done in the past. Just not so-on-the-radar because it was
>those other than Trump.

No, it was not-so-on-the-radar because people were putting unaccompanied children in detention - NOT separating them from their parents. In other words, if the Border Patrol came across ten kids without parents in the desert, they'd put them in those camps. Now they are separating them from their parents and CREATING unaccompanied children.

Consider a family in Disneyland.

Family 1 loses their child when the kid runs through a crowd to see the parade. The kid is lost for an hour. Finally a park employee finds him. While they are trying to locate the parents, they keep him in a locked room for a few hours.

Family 2 is in line when park employees come and pull the child out of his mother's arms. They then keep him in a locked room for a few hours while the parents try to get them to release him.

There's a difference between the two - even though they are both basically the same thing (keeping a kid in a locked room.)

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billvon

Consider a family in Disneyland.

Family 1 loses their child when the kid runs through a crowd to see the parade. The kid is lost for an hour. Finally a park employee finds him. While they are trying to locate the parents, they keep him in a locked room for a few hours.

Family 2 is in line when park employees come and pull the child out of his mother's arms. They then keep him in a locked room for a few hours while the parents try to get them to release him.

There's a difference between the two - even though they are both basically the same thing (keeping a kid in a locked room.)



Sadly, that level of nuance is lost on many Trump apologists.
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BIGUN

But at the same time - we have a 2.5 million illegal alien problem. Canada? Has a 200,000 illegal alien problem.



So, proportionally, Canada has a similar amount of undocumented residents as the US, but they haven't felt the need to open juvenile concentration camps. It's almost as though Canada is allowing the grown-ups to run things.
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So far, as predicted, the right wing response has been:

1) He didn't do it. "Trump didn't change the policy."
2) OK maybe he did it but it's not a big deal. "I haven't seen or heard of any better way."
3) Obama did it first. "You mean you're upset that he's doing the same thing that Obama did?"

Sad that it's so easy to predict their response to anything Trump does.

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BIGUN

But, that's just it. It has been done in the past. Just not so-on-the-radar because it was those other than Trump. But, I get it.

Do I like the process even within the scope of the law? No. What's going on with DACA? No. What's going on with US Veterans being deported? No. There is a better solution.

But at the same time - we have a 2.5 million illegal alien problem. Canada? Has a 200,000 illegal alien problem. What would happen if Canada work up tomorrow to having 2.5 million illegal aliens on their front doorstep? Welcome them with cookies and milk. I don't think so.



On a per capita basis Canada admits twice the immigrants as does the US per annum.
https://www.immigroup.com/news/immigration-united-states-america-vs-canada

It makes up for the lower fertility rate of Canadian women.
https://www.indexmundi.com/factbook/compare/canada.united-states/demographics

Bannon on migrant family separation: Zero tolerance doesn't have to be justified

http://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/392665-bannon-on-migrant-family-separation-zero-telence-dont-have-to-be

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So; you know me enough to know that I'm always receptive to new ways. I haven't seen or heard of any better way - just that this is bad. If your sink is overflowing; do you try to capture the water running thru your fingers or do you try and shut the water off at the supply line?



That's the analogy you are going to use? These are humans, not water. What works for a leaky pipe doesn't always work for a family fleeing a war zone.

Some better ways -

Release families on bond before their hearing.

Detain them together.

Do a (fast) biometric scan on everyone. If they have no prior crimes, let them in. Right then and there. If they do have prior crimes, then boot them back to their countries (or country they were last in.) Again, right then and there.

Open up more border crossings with the ability to process refugees - and again, do it quickly, without needing to break up families.

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Iago

******Consider a family in Disneyland.

Family 1 loses their child when the kid runs through a crowd to see the parade. The kid is lost for an hour. Finally a park employee finds him. While they are trying to locate the parents, they keep him in a locked room for a few hours.

Family 2 is in line when park employees come and pull the child out of his mother's arms. They then keep him in a locked room for a few hours while the parents try to get them to release him.

There's a difference between the two - even though they are both basically the same thing (keeping a kid in a locked room.)



Sadly, that level of nuance is lost on many Trump apologists.


Family 2, in the incorrect analogy above, is NOT in line at the park. Family 2 is jumping the fence to enter the park illegally and are caught by park employees. The police arrest the parents for (whatever citation is implied) and the children are placed in the custody of HHS, which is what happens in the US every day when parents are incarcerated and there is no guardian.

Thank you for demonstrating my point so clearly.
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That's the analogy you are going to use? These are humans, not water. What works for a leaky pipe doesn't always work for a family fleeing a war zone.

You know that wasn't literal.

***Some better ways -

Release families on bond before their hearing.

Detain them together.

Do a (fast) biometric scan on everyone. If they have no prior crimes, let them in. Right then and there. If they do have prior crimes, then boot them back to their countries (or country they were last in.) Again, right then and there.



Open up more border crossings with the ability to process refugees - and again, do it quickly, without needing to break up families.

Got it. So, not only do you want to go back to the way it was - you want to do it with more quantity and frequency. And, the liberal side wonders why Trump is the Pres. :S

We're just going to have to disagree on this. I would rather focus on US Citizens that need help with jobs, social issues. etc. We have enough of our own problems to not be inheriting those of others. Callous? I'm sure many would say so.

I'm leaving for a couple of weeks to travel around the country. I'll be offline - feel free to continue and I'll catch up later.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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>So, not only do you want to go back to the way it was - you want to do it with more
>quantity and frequency.

Yes. Provide more families who are fleeing desperate situations sanctuary. Give them a chance to raise their children in peace and build a new future. Same as it did for my grandparents and millions of others.

Doing what America was famous for a hundred years ago, in other words.

>And, the liberal side wonders why Trump is the Pres.

Oh, I don't wonder that. Lots of people think only about themselves.

>I would rather focus on US Citizens that need help with jobs, social issues. etc.

Agreed. And let's stop wasting money on walls, new prisons, lawyers etc. Let's spend that money - and the tax money that those immigrants bring - to help Americans. Everyone will be better off.

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BIGUN

I would rather focus on US Citizens that need help with jobs, social issues. etc. We have enough of our own problems to not be inheriting those of others. Callous? I'm sure many would say so.



It's funny how the same folks that hide behind such sentiment continually resist all efforts to help those in need at home, too. It makes it difficult to infer from their suggestions anything other than the absence of a moral compass.
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From an interview with Ann Chandler, from the Houston office of the nonprofit Tahirih Justice Center:

How do they take children away?

==========
"Judging from the mothers and fathers I’ve spoken to and those my staff has spoken to, there are several different processes. Sometimes they will tell the parent, “We’re taking your child away.” And when the parent asks, “When will we get them back?” they say, “We can’t tell you that.” Sometimes the officers will say, “because you’re going to be prosecuted” or “because you’re not welcome in this country,” or “because we’re separating them,” without giving them a clear justification. In other cases, we see no communication that the parent knows that their child is to be taken away. Instead, the officers say, “I’m going to take your child to get bathed.” That’s one we see again and again. “Your child needs to come with me for a bath.” The child goes off, and in a half an hour, twenty minutes, the parent inquires, “Where is my five-year-old?” “Where’s my seven-year-old?” “This is a long bath.” And they say, “You won’t be seeing your child again.” Sometimes mothers—I was talking to one mother, and she said, “Don’t take my child away,” and the child started screaming and vomiting and crying hysterically, and she asked the officers, “Can I at least have five minutes to console her?” They said no. In another case, the father said, “Can I comfort my child? Can I hold him for a few minutes?” The officer said, “You must let them go, and if you don’t let them go, I will write you up for an altercation, which will mean that you are the one that had the additional charges charged against you.” So, threats. So the father just let the child go. So it’s a lot of variations."
========

Can't they cross over legally?

========
. . .Those cases take two, three, four, five, six months. [They tell them] what happens to your child isn’t really our concern. That is, you have made the choice to bring your child over illegally. And this is what’s going to happen.

Texas Monthly: Even if they crossed at a legal entry point?

Ann Chandler: Very few people come to the bridge. The border patrol are saying the bridge is closed. When I was last out in McAllen, people were stacked on the bridge, sleeping there for three, four, ten nights. They’ve now cleared those individuals from sleeping on the bridge, but there are hundreds of accounts of asylum seekers, when they go to the bridge, who are told, “I’m sorry, we’re full today. We can’t process your case.”
========

Clever. Close the only legal entry points, then when they cross illegally, arrest them.

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I know you’ll be offline, but just wondering if you think we should let in refugees at all? Or should immigration now be restricted by income level in the originating country?

The vast majority of us in the US (and probably Canada) came here because we couldn’t get ahead in originating countries. That certainly applies to my ancestors.

But in some parts of the countr now,, we’re getting some of the same economic and population pressures that drove our ancestors here.

The simple solutions are wrong; they always are when the setting is complicated. And as long as folks don’t care whom they piss off as long as it’s not their own buddies, we’ll have families separated by whatever means makes it easiest for the immigration officers, even if it’s lying about a bath. And yes, that’s despicable.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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And who decides which laws get a zero-tolerance policy? Or which target populations have the zero-tolerance policy enforced on them?

That’s chickenshit bullshit.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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wmw999

And who decides which laws get a zero-tolerance policy? Or which target populations have the zero-tolerance policy enforced on them?

That’s chickenshit bullshit.

Wendy P.



I assume that you're referring to this:
"Bannon on migrant family separation: Zero tolerance doesn't have to be justified
http://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/392665-bannon-on-migrant-family-separation-zero-telence-dont-have-to-be

and I would agree. All laws, national policy and the actions of elected officials. Should be justified. Unjust laws have no place in democratic, egalitarian, societies.

Children and families have become political pawns. For republicans and democrats.

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Phil1111

***And who decides which laws get a zero-tolerance policy? Or which target populations have the zero-tolerance policy enforced on them?

That’s chickenshit bullshit.

Wendy P.



I assume that you're referring to this:
"Bannon on migrant family separation: Zero tolerance doesn't have to be justified
http://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/392665-bannon-on-migrant-family-separation-zero-telence-dont-have-to-be

and I would agree. All laws, national policy and the actions of elected officials. Should be justified. Unjust laws have no place in democratic, egalitarian, societies.

Children and families have become political pawns. For republicans and democrats.

But only one party has weaponized children. The Trumpist party, formerly known as the GOP.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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jcd11235

***I would rather focus on US Citizens that need help with jobs, social issues. etc. We have enough of our own problems to not be inheriting those of others. Callous? I'm sure many would say so.



It's funny how the same folks that hide behind such sentiment continually resist all efforts to help those in need at home, too. It makes it difficult to infer from their suggestions anything other than the absence of a moral compass.

Just for the record... I can't let this derogatory comment slide. You do not know me well enough to know how many people over the years I've helped. It's literally in the thousands. Life-changing type help.

And, you don;t know anyone on here well enough to challenge their compass while sounding as though you are somehow morally superior.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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Not addressed to anyone in particular.

I believe that both parties had well defined moral compasses until fairly recently.

The GOP seems to have lost both its moral compass and its backbone with its unwillingness to challenge even the worst excesses of Trumpism.

By Eugene Robinson, June 11:

Trump has completely overturned what once was hallowed Republican orthodoxy on free trade. He has blithely ignored what used to be GOP holy writ about fiscal restraint. He mocks the party’s traditional foreign policy stance, enjoying better rapport with dictators than with the democratically elected leaders of nations that for decades have been our closest allies. He refuses even to pay lip service to the notion of universal human rights. He lies, constantly and shamelessly, to the people he is sworn to represent. In both his public and private lives, he acts as if he believes that personal responsibility — which Republicans so love to preach about — is for losers.

If a Democratic president acted this way, he or she would already have been impeached by the GOP-controlled Congress. Outraged denunciation from the likes of Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) would be loud and constant. But the party of Abe Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan is now owned and operated by Donald Trump, and McConnell is as meek as a mouse.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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By Richard Cohen, April 9

It came over the city during the night, hovering eerily over the Capitol. Some people saw a spooky cloud, while others saw a haze of sorts, appropriately tinged yellow. But as it moved over the Capitol dome, everyone heard the same thing — a terrifying crunching sound. One by one, congressional leaders were having their spines removed.

The first person to be filleted in this matter was Paul D. Ryan (R-Wis.), the speaker of the House. He was averse to Donald Trump, but he subordinated the larger agenda of opposing an anti- ­democratic president to a smaller agenda of tax cuts and regulatory reform. Ryan would make a splendid president of any chamber of commerce.

The other leaders have been similarly de-spined. They chortle among themselves as Trump says in the morning that he will veto this bill or that bill, and in the afternoon signs it. They say nothing about the rhetorical mugging of Mexico or his long-held and mysterious adulation of Russian President Vladimir Putin. They stay silent while being soaked in a rain of lies, dignity running off them and splashing into the Washington gutter.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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