Right message wrong audience

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

"So, Master, you're saying that when someone finally speaks up and says "you're being an asshole" in that moment you become an asshole?"
"Yes, Grasshopper, exactly."

Yes, because that's exactly the same as deciding that the entire group of people you disagree with are 'trust fund babies'. Come on bro, at least have the integrity to admit that you just said something immensely stupid.

You'll come out looking better if you do.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,379]

Maybe a new Bobcat Goldthwait act?

"I never use personal attacks in my acts, and it's so, so sad that our once fine nation is descending to the level of character assassination and innuendo that we see in our media. And I'm just better than that, you clueless bunch of greedy assholes."

[SkyDekker 1,119]

Bob_Church

When I first found SC I couldn't believe that so few jumpers were using it. Now I'm not, and the comments I got when I tried to get people to come here from other sites make sense.
When you replace logic and debate with smug condescension and ugly labels it sucks all of the joy out of a place.
SC has become a Gated Community of trust fund babies.

Let me guess, you are the one bringing logic and debate and those who are saying you are wrong are smug condescension.

Did you ever think that maybe you are just wrong? Did that decisions making process take place as part of your logic?

[wmw999 2,114]

There's plenty of what looks to me like smugness and condescension coming through sometimes; some posters are more into that than others. There are posters I just don't interact with because of it -- not because they have nothing to say (though some are kind of one-note folks). Same used to go for some of the down-the-line conservatives when the more thoughtful ones posted here (I don't consider the OP to anything remotely resembling a down-the-line conservative).

It's that whole "try to listen to the message, not the messenger" thing. It's really, really, hard soemtimes. Especially when they're trying to back you into a corner and tell you what an asshole you are.

My dad liked that style of debate; the "corner them" type. It's why I quit debating things with him. My skin is a little too thin, I think.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[SkyDekker 1,119]

Sometimes I wonder how many people say things like:

Snowflake
Toughen up
suck it up cupcake
just work harder
Say it like it is
hate political correctness
etc.

But then get bent out of shape when spoken to in a direct matter.

[Stumpy 254]

SkyDekker

Sometimes I wonder how many people say things like:

Snowflake
Toughen up
suck it up cupcake
just work harder
Say it like it is
hate political correctness
etc.

But then get bent out of shape when spoken to in a direct matter.

I suspect that venn diagram looks very much like a single circle.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[jcd11235 0]

Bob_Church

When you replace logic and debate with smug condescension and ugly labels it sucks all of the joy out of a place.

So you're trying to suck all of the joy out of SC? I only ask because you are certainly among those who have abandoned logic and reality in favor of labels and stereotypes.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[DJL 232]

Quote

As the father of a young black man I think I have a pretty decent grasp on the reality he faces.

All my friends with black children say that at some point they need to have what's being called "the conversation" where even though they live in a nice neighborhood with nice houses, nice cars, they get good grades, church, whatever cliche of being an upright citizen, that the moment they show anger in a situation that they immediately become a criminal and risk being arrested or killed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/17/opinion/a-conversation-with-my-black-son.html

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,379]

DJL

All my friends with black children say that at some point they need to have what's being called "the conversation" where even though they live in a nice neighborhood with nice houses, nice cars, they get good grades, church, whatever cliche of being an upright citizen, that the moment they show anger in a situation that they immediately become a criminal and risk being arrested or killed.

Yep.

Similar example -

Let's say a white woman regularly goes to a place in her town where homeless people congregate and gives out food to the people who need it. She'd probably get written up in a local newspaper as a good Samaritan in a feel-good story.

What happens when a black woman does it?

====================================
Mountain View Safeway Calls 911 On Black Woman Giving Food To Homeless

July 30, 2018 at 10:22

MOUNTAIN VIEW (KPIX) – Safeway employees in Mountain View called 911 when an African-American woman was donating food to the homeless because they thought she was shoplifting, according to police.

In her free time Erika Martin says she gives care packages to the homeless. “It makes me feel good, you know,” said Martin.

One of them is a man who frequents the Safeway off Shoreline Boulevard in Mountain View.

“That day I decided to give him dog food for his dog,” said Martin.

That was a Sunday evening she’ll never forget.

“The police just blocks me in. I’m like, ‘what’s going on?’” said Martin.

Erica said she found herself suddenly defending herself to several officers who told her Safeway employees accused her of theft.

“Then she [the officer] was like ‘well, we were called here because you fit the description of someone taking items out of Safeway and bringing it back to your car’” said Martin.

Erika says Safeway workers thought she was conspiring with an African American man and that a group of kids were also shoplifting and bringing items to her car.

She says her little boy had gone to the deli to see if they were giving away cookie samples, as he’s done many times before, and was now sitting in their car, frightened and emotional.

“He was like crying because he thought they were there to arrest him,” said Martin.

The thing is, Martin never stepped foot inside Safeway. In fact, she says she never got out of her car.

Martin wasn’t wearing the shirt reported to police. She was wearing a religious shirt instead and claims she was listening to gospel music and talking to her sisters who had just dropped off items to a homeless man.

Martin’s sister recorded a video of the incident.
======================

Fortunately she wasn't shot, and fortunately there is video of the incident so no one can say "well, she was acting like a criminal" or something.

[Bob_Church 7]

See, this is evidence of something I didn't even know. It turns out I am a racist, it's the only explanation. You see, in my twisted bigoted excuse for a brain, the idea that all of this very real and very documented social injustice means that a young black man who wants to stay alive SHOULDN'T feel obligated to do whatever a scared cop aiming a cocked gun at him was the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Can you believe the depths of my racism and delusion? Maybe I should take one of those racial sensitivity programs where, using small words and speaking slowly, they can explain to my simple mind the way having the world stacked against him makes a young black man immune to bullets.
I've got so much to learn.

[SkyDekker 1,119]

Bob_Church

See, this is evidence of something I didn't even know. It turns out I am a racist, it's the only explanation. You see, in my twisted bigoted excuse for a brain, the idea that all of this very real and very documented social injustice means that a young black man who wants to stay alive SHOULDN'T feel obligated to do whatever a scared cop aiming a cocked gun at him was the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Can you believe the depths of my racism and delusion? Maybe I should take one of those racial sensitivity programs where, using small words and speaking slowly, they can explain to my simple mind the way having the world stacked against him makes a young black man immune to bullets.
I've got so much to learn.

For fucks sake. Nobody is saying that.

What people are trying to explain to you is that there are underlying reasons for much of that behaviour. Maybe some understanding from "the other side" is helpful in trying to keep young black men alive.

You may not be racist, but the constant unwillingness to look at "the other side of the coin" is certainly a trait you share with racists.

[RonD1120 58]

Bob_Church

See, this is evidence of something I didn't even know. It turns out I am a racist, it's the only explanation. You see, in my twisted bigoted excuse for a brain, the idea that all of this very real and very documented social injustice means that a young black man who wants to stay alive SHOULDN'T feel obligated to do whatever a scared cop aiming a cocked gun at him was the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Can you believe the depths of my racism and delusion? Maybe I should take one of those racial sensitivity programs where, using small words and speaking slowly, they can explain to my simple mind the way having the world stacked against him makes a young black man immune to bullets.
I've got so much to learn.

Yes, you and I have so much to learn.

I am considered a racist because I posted some years back that I do not like being in an area where gang bangers are expected to frequent and I have a CCW permit. Furthermore, I do not believe in open borders.

Therefore, I am a racist.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Bob_Church 7]

SkyDekker

***See, this is evidence of something I didn't even know. It turns out I am a racist, it's the only explanation. You see, in my twisted bigoted excuse for a brain, the idea that all of this very real and very documented social injustice means that a young black man who wants to stay alive SHOULDN'T feel obligated to do whatever a scared cop aiming a cocked gun at him was the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Can you believe the depths of my racism and delusion? Maybe I should take one of those racial sensitivity programs where, using small words and speaking slowly, they can explain to my simple mind the way having the world stacked against him makes a young black man immune to bullets.
I've got so much to learn.

For fucks sake. Nobody is saying that.

What people are trying to explain to you is that there are underlying reasons for much of that behaviour. Maybe some understanding from "the other side" is helpful in trying to keep young black men alive.

You may not be racist, but the constant unwillingness to look at "the other side of the coin" is certainly a trait you share with racists.

I just think it's critical to not confuse two things.

1. Because of how society has screwed blacks over the inner cities have become war zones. This needs to be fixed. This MUST be fixed. And I think that if it were actually acknowledged and acted on it could be fixed. I wouldn't be averse to a few politicians being shot, but shooting cops and fellow black men won't help.

2. There are things that if you do will get you killed. If you aim a gun at a cop one of you will die. If you get drunk and try to take a cop's gun someone will die. When you go flashing a handgun around in public you may very well die.

And absolutely nothing about the first situation will bring a victim of the second situation back to life. Dead is dead. As for BLM I honestly believe that they will get far more young black people killed without saving any lives. If they'd include a few "don't act stupid with a gun" signs in with all the "no justice no peace' ones maybe they'd do some good for the people they claim to be worried about.

[SkyDekker 1,119]

The big difference is that the colour of your skin determines which level of stupidity will get you killed. That is what BLM tends to object to. Which is likely why you wouldn't see signage like that.

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

1. Because of how society has screwed blacks over the inner cities have become war zones. This needs to be fixed. This MUST be fixed. And I think that if it were actually acknowledged and acted on it could be fixed. I wouldn't be averse to a few politicians being shot, but shooting cops and fellow black men won't help.

2. There are things that if you do will get you killed. If you aim a gun at a cop one of you will die. If you get drunk and try to take a cop's gun someone will die. When you go flashing a handgun around in public you may very well die.

3. If a Police Department hires a cop who has been fired from a neighbouring Police Department for being dangerously unstable, specifically when it comes to handling weapons, and sends him out into the community with a gun, someone will probably die.

Yet you appear to believe that because of points one and two, everyone should ignore point three.

Which is odd.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Bob_Church 7]

SkyDekker

The big difference is that the colour of your skin determines which level of stupidity will get you killed. That is what BLM tends to object to. Which is likely why you wouldn't see signage like that.

But why do cops feel that they have to be so much more careful when pulling over a young black man than a young white man? Even if the cop is black?

[billvon 2,379]

Quote

As for BLM I honestly believe that they will get far more young black people killed without saving any lives. If they'd include a few "don't act stupid with a gun" signs in with all the "no justice no peace' ones maybe they'd do some good for the people they claim to be worried about.

They have succeeded in, overall, reducing the racial divide.

From the SAGE Social Psychology journal:
===========================
Implicit and Explicit Racial Attitudes Changed During Black Lives Matter
Jeremy Sawyer*, Anup Gampa*, First Published March 13, 2018

Abstract
Lab-based interventions have been ineffective in changing individuals’ implicit racial attitudes for more than brief durations, and exposure to high-status Black exemplars like Obama has proven ineffective in shifting societal-level racial attitudes. Antiracist social movements, however, offer a potential societal-level alternative for reducing racial bias. Racial attitudes were examined before and during Black Lives Matter (BLM) and its high points of struggle with 1,369,204 participants from 2009 to 2016. After controlling for changes in participant demographics, overall implicit attitudes were less pro-White during BLM than pre-BLM, became increasingly less pro-White across BLM, and were less pro-White during most periods of high BLM struggle. Considering changes in implicit attitudes by participant race, Whites became less implicitly pro-White during BLM, whereas Blacks showed little change. Regarding explicit attitudes, Whites became less pro-White and Blacks became less pro-Black during BLM, each moving toward an egalitarian “no preference” position.
===========================

[billvon 2,379]

Quote

But why do cops feel that they have to be so much more careful when pulling over a young black man than a young white man? Even if the cop is black?

Because they believe that black people are inherently different than white people, and thus more likely to commit violence. Changing this belief can reduce the number of blacks killed by police.

[SkyDekker 1,119]

Bob_Church

***The big difference is that the colour of your skin determines which level of stupidity will get you killed. That is what BLM tends to object to. Which is likely why you wouldn't see signage like that.

But why do cops feel that they have to be so much more careful when pulling over a young black man than a young white man? Even if the cop is black?

You really think there is a one size fits all answer for that?

How about cops just treat both the same?

[Bob_Church 7]

SkyDekker

******The big difference is that the colour of your skin determines which level of stupidity will get you killed. That is what BLM tends to object to. Which is likely why you wouldn't see signage like that.

But why do cops feel that they have to be so much more careful when pulling over a young black man than a young white man? Even if the cop is black?

You really think there is a one size fits all answer for that?

How about cops just treat both the same?

Because every time a young black man pulls out a gun and kills someone life for all young black men gets more dangerous. I'm not saying it's fair, but I think it's true.
Another thing though, not so much about your posts but a sort of feeling that comes up in all of these discussion. That it's only blacks who die when dealing with cops. Cops kill twice as many white people a year as black. Yes, I know, it's a smaller percentage, but it's still not like only blacks die when interacting with a cop goes bad.
No matter what your race is, if you force a cop into a position where they think you are going to kill them they'll defend themselves.

[SkyDekker 1,119]

Quote

Because every time a young black man pulls out a gun and kills someone life for all young black men gets more dangerous. I'm not saying it's fair, but I think it's true.

Which is different than when a young white man pulls a gun out and kills someone. That is racism.

Quote

Another thing though, not so much about your posts but a sort of feeling that comes up in all of these discussion. That it's only blacks who die when dealing with cops. Cops kill twice as many white people a year as black. Yes, I know, it's a smaller percentage, but it's still not like only blacks die when interacting with a cop goes bad.

Right. when you look at the black population in general and the black contingent of people shot by police, you see that the ratios are quite different. Some of that is racism, some of that is economic factors, some of it is other factors.

There is a reason black people are over-represented in the poor community. I don't tend to believe it is because they are inherently lazy or stupid. It is significantly harder for a black person to get:

Educated
Employed
Promoted
Wealthy

Many of the reasons why: racism.

So yes, there are other factors at play. I mean sometimes a drunk person crashes a car for other reasons than being drunk. Yet, when it comes to trying to reduce people crashing while driving drunk, we tend to focus on the drunk part. Your arguments are, IMHO, akin to trying to point at the few other instances.

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

No matter what your race is, if you force a cop into a position where they think you are going to kill them they'll defend themselves.

What do you think about the fact that an incident you brought into the conversation as an example of why the victim is always to blame actually involved a policeman who had already been found unfit to carry a badge and a weapon?

Is that something that makes even the slightest impression on your conviction that there is nothing for the police to learn from any shooting?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Bob_Church 7]

RonD1120

***See, this is evidence of something I didn't even know. It turns out I am a racist, it's the only explanation. You see, in my twisted bigoted excuse for a brain, the idea that all of this very real and very documented social injustice means that a young black man who wants to stay alive SHOULDN'T feel obligated to do whatever a scared cop aiming a cocked gun at him was the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Can you believe the depths of my racism and delusion? Maybe I should take one of those racial sensitivity programs where, using small words and speaking slowly, they can explain to my simple mind the way having the world stacked against him makes a young black man immune to bullets.
I've got so much to learn.

Yes, you and I have so much to learn.

I am considered a racist because I posted some years back that I do not like being in an area where gang bangers are expected to frequent and I have a CCW permit. Furthermore, I do not believe in open borders.

Therefore, I am a racist.

I was getting tired of Nazi anyway.

[Bob_Church 7]

"Which is different than when a young white man pulls a gun out and kills someone. That is racism. "

I don't think we can know that until it happens at anywhere near the same rate.
The records show that for every 100,000 white men in the US 2.1 are murdered. For black men, 29.12.


https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/23/health/gun-deaths-in-men-by-state-study/index.html

[billvon 2,379]

>Because every time a young black man pulls out a gun and kills someone life for all
>young black men gets more dangerous.

Exactly.

Every time a young black man pulls out a gun and kills someone, cops think blacks are more dangerous. It's their race that is the issue. Or perhaps their "inner city" culture. Either way, better have your hand on your gun the next time you pull one over. Because, you know.

Every time a young white man pulls out a gun and kills someone, cops think about how it's video games, or a broken home, or how the media has a bad influence on kids these days. Maybe it's all the violence they see on TV, or the effect of bullying, or drug dealers pushing drugs on kids. We have to do something to protect them! That could be my son.

And that's a big part of the racism that groups like BLM hope to counter.