The NRA Says It’s in Deep Financial Trouble, May Be ‘Unable to Exist’

[jcd11235 0]

DJL

Somehow private citizens in some states have more leeway than police officers in this regard.

Private citizens should have more leeway than police officers.

Professionals should be held to a much higher standard. "It was a stressful situation and I was fearful for my safety" should carry no weight with a jury when it comes from a LEO. It was known that the job was stressful and dangerous prior to taking the role.

In the US, both private citizens and cops have far too much leeway.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[DJL 232]

jcd11235

***Somehow private citizens in some states have more leeway than police officers in this regard.

Private citizens should have more leeway than police officers.

Professionals should be held to a much higher standard. "It was a stressful situation and I was fearful for my safety" should carry no weight with a jury when it comes from a LEO. It was known that the job was stressful and dangerous prior to taking the role.

In the US, both private citizens and cops have far too much leeway.

But I think he raises a good point. If someone comes up to me and wants to fight because he thinks I was looking at his girlfriend should I be able to kill him? Have we abandoned the concept that a penalty for assault is what should be the deterrent?

Take this case for example:

https://abc13.com/sheriff-parking-spot-shooting-fits-stand-your-ground-law/3800933/

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,400]

Quote

If someone comes up to me and wants to fight because he thinks I was looking at his girlfriend should I be able to kill him?

In 'stand your ground' states - that's one of the presumptions. You don't have to retreat in such cases; you can fight and, if you are worried he will seriously injure you, kill him. That's not a bug, that's a feature for many gun proponents. Indeed, for some it is their fondest dream.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

jcd11235

***Somehow private citizens in some states have more leeway than police officers in this regard.

Private citizens should have more leeway than police officers.

Professionals should be held to a much higher standard. "It was a stressful situation and I was fearful for my safety" should carry no weight with a jury when it comes from a LEO. It was known that the job was stressful and dangerous prior to taking the role.

In the US, both private citizens and cops have far too much leeway.

You don't understand the reality of a private citizen being involved in a defensive gun use*, do you?

General rule is if the gun is drawn and pointed in public, but not fired, plan on being arrested and plan on spending ~ $5k for your lawyer.

If the gun is fired and the attacker shot, plan on $20k minimum. A while back, AggieDave noted that the average cost in Texas for a "no bill" citizen shooting was around $50k ('no bill' meaning the Grand Jury didn't issue an indictment).

Cops automatically get paid leave, a few days to think it through and get their story straight and a union lawyer.

*"Use" in this case meaning using a gun to threaten someone, with or without actually shooting them.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[gowlerk 1,912]

I was told by someone who trains civilians on using firearms for protection that he tells them to "think hard before you pull the trigger, because if you ever shoot someone it will change your life forever".

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

gowlerk

I was told by someone who trains civilians on using firearms for protection that he tells them to "think hard before you pull the trigger, because if you ever shoot someone it will change your life forever".

Yup. I know an instructor who starts off her Carry Permit classes by telling the students:

"Write a list of everyone you are willing to die for. Now write down everyone you are willing to go to prison for the rest of your life for. Now write down everyone you are willing to give up everything you own for; house, car, savings, everything.
The reality is if you use a gun to defend someone, those are very real possibilities. Be very careful using that gun."

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jcd11235 0]

DJL

If someone comes up to me and wants to fight because he thinks I was looking at his girlfriend should I be able to kill him? Have we abandoned the concept that a penalty for assault is what should be the deterrent?

No. you should not.

On that point, we are in complete agreement. I believe both police and civilians are currently given FAR too much leeway to use deadly force unnecessarily without legal consequence. I just believe that of the two groups, law enforcement should be held to a higher standard, as it is their chosen vocation.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[JoeWeber 2,299]

wolfriverjoe

***I was told by someone who trains civilians on using firearms for protection that he tells them to "think hard before you pull the trigger, because if you ever shoot someone it will change your life forever".

Yup. I know an instructor who starts off her Carry Permit classes by telling the students:

"Write a list of everyone you are willing to die for. Now write down everyone you are willing to go to prison for the rest of your life for. Now write down everyone you are willing to give up everything you own for; house, car, savings, everything.
The reality is if you use a gun to defend someone, those are very real possibilities. Be very careful using that gun."

Yesterday, in the local ACE Hardware store I passed an angry looking dude with a Glock in a thigh holster. Never mind that this store has a "No Open Carry" sign on the front door, this deluded asshole was out to exercise his second amendment rights and fuck anyone who disagreed. How is it that anyone views this as necessary? For fucks sake, I just wanted to buy a piece of 2" PVC pipe in a town that has 3 marijuana stores and not a single goddamn 3 way stop light. Not to mention that it would have been child's play to grab a shovel and whack the moron on the head if necessary. WTF? I'm a gun guy but this is just ridiculous bullshit.

[Westerly 61]

JoeWeber

******I was told by someone who trains civilians on using firearms for protection that he tells them to "think hard before you pull the trigger, because if you ever shoot someone it will change your life forever".

Yup. I know an instructor who starts off her Carry Permit classes by telling the students:

"Write a list of everyone you are willing to die for. Now write down everyone you are willing to go to prison for the rest of your life for. Now write down everyone you are willing to give up everything you own for; house, car, savings, everything.
The reality is if you use a gun to defend someone, those are very real possibilities. Be very careful using that gun."

Yesterday, in the local ACE Hardware store I passed an angry looking dude with a Glock in a thigh holster. Never mind that this store has a "No Open Carry" sign on the front door, this deluded asshole was out to exercise his second amendment rights and fuck anyone who disagreed. How is it that anyone views this as necessary? For fucks sake, I just wanted to buy a piece of 2" PVC pipe in a town that has 3 marijuana stores and not a single goddamn 3 way stop light. Not to mention that it would have been child's play to grab a shovel and whack the moron on the head if necessary. WTF? I'm a gun guy but this is just ridiculous bullshit.

You do realize not everyone carrying a gun is some gun nut ass hole? Great story. Here is another story that just happened yesterday. A dude and his friend were trying to steal some cars parked at a popular hiking location. A guy with a concealed weapon approached them. The thief got in his car and tried to flee, striking a women in the process and backing into one of the parked cars. After the thief backed into the women and tried to ram her a second time to flee the location, the man pulled out his weapon and shot the thief. The thief was later charged with attempted murder and auto theft.

The guy with a gun quite literally saved the day in very measurable sense and if someone with a gun wasent present someone would have died.

[Stumpy 256]

Westerly

You do realize not everyone carrying a gun is some gun nut ass hole

Maybe not. But someone open carrying where it's not welcome, is. Pretty much by definition.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Phil1111 910]

Westerly

*********I was told by someone who trains civilians on using firearms for protection that he tells them to "think hard before you pull the trigger, because if you ever shoot someone it will change your life forever".

Yup. I know an instructor who starts off her Carry Permit classes by telling the students:

"Write a list of everyone you are willing to die for. Now write down everyone you are willing to go to prison for the rest of your life for. Now write down everyone you are willing to give up everything you own for; house, car, savings, everything.
The reality is if you use a gun to defend someone, those are very real possibilities. Be very careful using that gun."

Yesterday, in the local ACE Hardware store I passed an angry looking dude with a Glock in a thigh holster. Never mind that this store has a "No Open Carry" sign on the front door, this deluded asshole was out to exercise his second amendment rights and fuck anyone who disagreed. How is it that anyone views this as necessary? For fucks sake, I just wanted to buy a piece of 2" PVC pipe in a town that has 3 marijuana stores and not a single goddamn 3 way stop light. Not to mention that it would have been child's play to grab a shovel and whack the moron on the head if necessary. WTF? I'm a gun guy but this is just ridiculous bullshit.

You do realize not everyone carrying a gun is some gun nut ass hole? Great story. Here is another story that just happened yesterday. A dude and his friend were trying to steal some cars parked at a popular hiking location. A guy with a concealed weapon approached them. The thief got in his car and tried to flee, striking a women in the process and backing into one of the parked cars. After the thief backed into the women and tried to ram her a second time to flee the location, the man pulled out his weapon and shot the thief. The thief was later charged with attempted murder and auto theft.

The guy with a gun quite literally saved the day in very measurable sense and if someone with a gun wasent present someone would have died.

Or, in the absence of the "A guy with a concealed weapon". The car thief would have just fled the scene without striking the woman. Because obviously he didn't have a gun. That he was in fear for his life and that led to his fevered actions in fleeing the scene.

The post from wolfriverjoe re the dangers and financial costs associated with shooting someone. Needs to be front and center.

Suppose the car thief has no money or assets and the woman is seriously injured by the fleeing thief's actions. Bring in some lawyers who discover the armed man has assets.

[gowlerk 1,912]

Quote

The guy with a gun quite literally saved the day in very measurable sense and if someone with a gun wasent present someone would have died.

From my POV he did not "save the day". He may have prevented a car from being stolen. His actions led to a near fatal car accident and then to the thief being shot. In no jurisdiction is being shot the penalty for theft. If the gun was not present the man would not have approached them aggressively and they would not have fled and likely no one would be hurt.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jcd11235 0]

JoeWeber

Yesterday, in the local ACE Hardware store I passed an angry looking dude with a Glock in a thigh holster. Never mind that this store has a "No Open Carry" sign on the front door, this deluded asshole was out to exercise his second amendment rights and fuck anyone who disagreed. How is it that anyone views this as necessary? For fucks sake, I just wanted to buy a piece of 2" PVC pipe in a town that has 3 marijuana stores and not a single goddamn 3 way stop light. Not to mention that it would have been child's play to grab a shovel and whack the moron on the head if necessary. WTF? I'm a gun guy but this is just ridiculous bullshit.

I'm amazed at the number of people who are too scared to go to the local stores unarmed in the USA's safest era (wrt to violent crime) of the last half-century. Little old ladies used to do it regularly back when violent crime was a substantially bigger problem.

Nothing screams "I'm a coward!" like a civilian openly carrying a gun in public.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[DJL 232]

jcd11235

***Yesterday, in the local ACE Hardware store I passed an angry looking dude with a Glock in a thigh holster. Never mind that this store has a "No Open Carry" sign on the front door, this deluded asshole was out to exercise his second amendment rights and fuck anyone who disagreed. How is it that anyone views this as necessary? For fucks sake, I just wanted to buy a piece of 2" PVC pipe in a town that has 3 marijuana stores and not a single goddamn 3 way stop light. Not to mention that it would have been child's play to grab a shovel and whack the moron on the head if necessary. WTF? I'm a gun guy but this is just ridiculous bullshit.

I'm amazed at the number of people who are too scared to go to the local stores unarmed in the USA's safest era (wrt to violent crime) of the last half-century. Little old ladies used to do it regularly back when violent crime was a substantially bigger problem.

Nothing screams "I'm a coward!" like a civilian openly carrying a gun in public.

I'll wager 90% of them just like to be seen with it. Basically the Buck Knife on the belt loop crowd found a new fashion accessory.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[SkyDekker 1,122]

A guy with a gun turned theft into attempted murder and you call that a victory?

Then you are surprised people would use a term like "gun nut"?

[mr2mk1g 10]

gowlerk

He may have prevented a car from being stolen.

As a practical effect he didn't even really prevent that - a car with brains all over the interior will be written off.

a) do nothing - car's stolen and owner gets an insurance pay out (if insured)

b) shoot the guy - car's written off and owner gets an insurance pay out (if insured)

[Slow hand clap]

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Phil1111

***
You do realize not everyone carrying a gun is some gun nut ass hole? Great story. Here is another story that just happened yesterday. A dude and his friend were trying to steal some cars parked at a popular hiking location. A guy with a concealed weapon approached them. The thief got in his car and tried to flee, striking a women in the process and backing into one of the parked cars. After the thief backed into the women and tried to ram her a second time to flee the location, the man pulled out his weapon and shot the thief. The thief was later charged with attempted murder and auto theft.

The guy with a gun quite literally saved the day in very measurable sense and if someone with a gun wasent present someone would have died.

Or, in the absence of the "A guy with a concealed weapon". The car thief would have just fled the scene without striking the woman. Because obviously he didn't have a gun. That he was in fear for his life and that led to his fevered actions in fleeing the scene.

The post from wolfriverjoe re the dangers and financial costs associated with shooting someone. Needs to be front and center.

Suppose the car thief has no money or assets and the woman is seriously injured by the fleeing thief's actions. Bring in some lawyers who discover the armed man has assets.

Did you read what was posted?

If I'm reading it correctly, the thief tried to run the woman down before the gun was pulled out.

That is, the thief was confronted by someone not holding a gun, attempted to escape by running someone over (twice), then the citizen produced a firearm.

And the idea that the interior of the car was ruined because the thief's brains were splattered all over it is sorta silly. If he was dead, he wouldn't be facing charges.

I won't disagree that confronting thieves is often dangerous. It's not a good idea. This citizen will likely be dealing with this for a while. Lots of time and lots of money to get through it.

Also, I did a quick search and found nothing that matches the story.

Got a link?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jakee 1,254]

Westerly

You do realize not everyone carrying a gun is some gun nut ass hole? Great story. Here is another story that just happened yesterday. A dude and his friend were trying to steal some cars parked at a popular hiking location. A guy with a concealed weapon approached them. The thief got in his car and tried to flee, striking a women in the process and backing into one of the parked cars. After the thief backed into the women and tried to ram her a second time to flee the location, the man pulled out his weapon and shot the thief. The thief was later charged with attempted murder and auto theft.

The guy with a gun quite literally saved the day in very measurable sense and if someone with a gun wasent present someone would have died.

Err, what?

You just gave an example where a guy with a gun quite literally escalated a non-violent situation into a life threatening one.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[ryoder 1,384]

A good example of the good-guy-with-a-gun scenario:

Armed bystander shoots man who opened fire at Florida 'back-to-school' event
https://abcnews.go.com/US/armed-bystander-shot-man-opened-fire-crowded-florida/story?id=57057661

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Westerly 61]

jakee

***
You do realize not everyone carrying a gun is some gun nut ass hole? Great story. Here is another story that just happened yesterday. A dude and his friend were trying to steal some cars parked at a popular hiking location. A guy with a concealed weapon approached them. The thief got in his car and tried to flee, striking a women in the process and backing into one of the parked cars. After the thief backed into the women and tried to ram her a second time to flee the location, the man pulled out his weapon and shot the thief. The thief was later charged with attempted murder and auto theft.

The guy with a gun quite literally saved the day in very measurable sense and if someone with a gun wasent present someone would have died.

Err, what?

You just gave an example where a guy with a gun quite literally escalated a non-violent situation into a life threatening one.No I dident. The suspect rammed someone with a car, was about to ram another person and then the bystander pulled a gun, preventing the suspect from running over a second person. The gun did not come out until after the suspect already assaulted someone and was attempting to run down a second person. With his gun concealed, the bystander approached the suspect while he was stealing the car. The suspect attempted to flee, running someone over in the process, and then the bystander pulled his gun right as the suspect was about to run into a second person in an attempt to flee the scene to avoid getting caught.

[Phil1111 910]

wolfriverjoe

******
You do realize not everyone carrying a gun is some gun nut ass hole? Great story. Here is another story that just happened yesterday. A dude and his friend were trying to steal some cars parked at a popular hiking location. A guy with a concealed weapon approached them. The thief got in his car and tried to flee, striking a women in the process and backing into one of the parked cars. After the thief backed into the women and tried to ram her a second time to flee the location, the man pulled out his weapon and shot the thief. The thief was later charged with attempted murder and auto theft.

The guy with a gun quite literally saved the day in very measurable sense and if someone with a gun wasent present someone would have died.

Or, in the absence of the "A guy with a concealed weapon". The car thief would have just fled the scene without striking the woman. Because obviously he didn't have a gun. That he was in fear for his life and that led to his fevered actions in fleeing the scene.

The post from wolfriverjoe re the dangers and financial costs associated with shooting someone. Needs to be front and center.

Suppose the car thief has no money or assets and the woman is seriously injured by the fleeing thief's actions. Bring in some lawyers who discover the armed man has assets.

Did you read what was posted?

If I'm reading it correctly, the thief tried to run the woman down before the gun was pulled out.

That is, the thief was confronted by someone not holding a gun, attempted to escape by running someone over (twice), then the citizen produced a firearm.

And the idea that the interior of the car was ruined because the thief's brains were splattered all over it is sorta silly. If he was dead, he wouldn't be facing charges.

I won't disagree that confronting thieves is often dangerous. It's not a good idea. This citizen will likely be dealing with this for a while. Lots of time and lots of money to get through it.

Also, I did a quick search and found nothing that matches the story.

Got a link?

Aaaaaah Yeah. I don't believe the narrative that the thief was so motivated to flee prior to the display of a firearm. If he was in his own car, presumably the car theft angle was already over.

In the absence of better reporting. I'd say the brandishing of a gun motivated the thief to strike the woman as he fled the scene in his own car.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Phil1111

Aaaaaah Yeah. I don't believe the narrative that the thief was so motivated to flee prior to the display of a firearm. If he was in his own car, presumably the car theft angle was already over.

In the absence of better reporting. I'd say the brandishing of a gun motivated the thief to strike the woman as he fled the scene in his own car.

Don't be so sure. There have been plenty of cases where the 'bad guy' panics & flees, either intentionally ramming/running over anyone who presents a threat, or simply panicking and trying to escape, no matter who/what is in the way.

The way Westerly relates the story (and claims in a post one or two up), there was no gun present in the situation until after the assault with the car.

Again, I found nothing with a quick search. A link to a story about the incident would be helpful.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[JoeWeber 2,299]

Westerly

*********I was told by someone who trains civilians on using firearms for protection that he tells them to "think hard before you pull the trigger, because if you ever shoot someone it will change your life forever".

Yup. I know an instructor who starts off her Carry Permit classes by telling the students:

"Write a list of everyone you are willing to die for. Now write down everyone you are willing to go to prison for the rest of your life for. Now write down everyone you are willing to give up everything you own for; house, car, savings, everything.
The reality is if you use a gun to defend someone, those are very real possibilities. Be very careful using that gun."

Yesterday, in the local ACE Hardware store I passed an angry looking dude with a Glock in a thigh holster. Never mind that this store has a "No Open Carry" sign on the front door, this deluded asshole was out to exercise his second amendment rights and fuck anyone who disagreed. How is it that anyone views this as necessary? For fucks sake, I just wanted to buy a piece of 2" PVC pipe in a town that has 3 marijuana stores and not a single goddamn 3 way stop light. Not to mention that it would have been child's play to grab a shovel and whack the moron on the head if necessary. WTF? I'm a gun guy but this is just ridiculous bullshit.

You do realize not everyone carrying a gun is some gun nut ass hole? Great story. Here is another story that just happened yesterday. A dude and his friend were trying to steal some cars parked at a popular hiking location. A guy with a concealed weapon approached them. The thief got in his car and tried to flee, striking a women in the process and backing into one of the parked cars. After the thief backed into the women and tried to ram her a second time to flee the location, the man pulled out his weapon and shot the thief. The thief was later charged with attempted murder and auto theft.

The guy with a gun quite literally saved the day in very measurable sense and if someone with a gun wasent present someone would have died.

The sign on the front door states "No Open Carry Allowed". That makes this particular constitutional scholar both an asshole and a moron. Seriously, that is compensating behavior at best. "Look everyone! I got a bulge, too. Just not where it's supposed to be."

[SkyDekker 1,122]

wolfriverjoe

******
You do realize not everyone carrying a gun is some gun nut ass hole? Great story. Here is another story that just happened yesterday. A dude and his friend were trying to steal some cars parked at a popular hiking location. A guy with a concealed weapon approached them. The thief got in his car and tried to flee, striking a women in the process and backing into one of the parked cars. After the thief backed into the women and tried to ram her a second time to flee the location, the man pulled out his weapon and shot the thief. The thief was later charged with attempted murder and auto theft.

The guy with a gun quite literally saved the day in very measurable sense and if someone with a gun wasent present someone would have died.

Or, in the absence of the "A guy with a concealed weapon". The car thief would have just fled the scene without striking the woman. Because obviously he didn't have a gun. That he was in fear for his life and that led to his fevered actions in fleeing the scene.

The post from wolfriverjoe re the dangers and financial costs associated with shooting someone. Needs to be front and center.

Suppose the car thief has no money or assets and the woman is seriously injured by the fleeing thief's actions. Bring in some lawyers who discover the armed man has assets.

Did you read what was posted?

If I'm reading it correctly, the thief tried to run the woman down before the gun was pulled out.

That is, the thief was confronted by someone not holding a gun, attempted to escape by running someone over (twice), then the citizen produced a firearm.

And the idea that the interior of the car was ruined because the thief's brains were splattered all over it is sorta silly. If he was dead, he wouldn't be facing charges.

I won't disagree that confronting thieves is often dangerous. It's not a good idea. This citizen will likely be dealing with this for a while. Lots of time and lots of money to get through it.

Also, I did a quick search and found nothing that matches the story.

Got a link?


Did you read what was written...I have highlighted the time line to make it easier for you.

[billvon 2,400]

>Did you read what was written...I have highlighted the time line to make it easier for you.

I think Wolf's point was that it was a concealed weapon, so as far as the thief knew it was just some guy coming over. Until he pulled it out, that is - which was after the hitting of people started.