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nolhtairt

North and South Korea

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"Admittedly, nowhere near as good as we have it. They are for the most part, a starved and impoverished population that even suffered a famine in the 90's IIRC"

But if they can see that another famine is coming I wonder how far he'd go to prevent it or at least get more food sent in.

I was watching a documentary about Tanzania (Darwin's Nightmare, great movie) and it was chilling to hear the radio in the background announcing which regions were facing upcoming famines. It was so matter of fact that it sounded like something about the stock market.

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>Quite frankly, I'm amazed at the rapid change in North Korea's tone from defiance to conciliatory.
>Say what you want about Trump, but I dare say that this would not have happened if Hillary had
>won. . . . . Well done, Trump. Give that man the Nobel Peace Prize.

Yeah . . . so, about that . . .

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billvon

>Quite frankly, I'm amazed at the rapid change in North Korea's tone from defiance to conciliatory.
>Say what you want about Trump, but I dare say that this would not have happened if Hillary had
>won. . . . . Well done, Trump. Give that man the Nobel Peace Prize.

Yeah . . . so, about that . . .



I was going to cure cancer and solve world hunger. But then I didn't.
Do I get a Nobel prize too?

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billvon

>Quite frankly, I'm amazed at the rapid change in North Korea's tone from defiance to conciliatory.
>Say what you want about Trump, but I dare say that this would not have happened if Hillary had
>won. . . . . Well done, Trump. Give that man the Nobel Peace Prize.

Yeah . . . so, about that . . .



Yeah well, this is all on Kim Jong Un and his stooges. Getting all snippy... Ever think of the possibility that Trump weaseled the three Korean American prisoners out of North Korea? That's a slap to KJU's face.

Hell, Trump even trolled KJU in this official letter. :D

IMG_20180524_115308.jpg

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>Ever think of the possibility that Trump weaseled the three Korean American prisoners out
>of North Korea?

Given that the Kim dynasty does this all the time (11 times under Obama, 3 times so far under Trump) it's not much of a "slap in the face." More like "business as usual."

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nolhtairt

Quite frankly, I'm amazed at the rapid change in North Korea's tone from defiance to conciliatory. Say what you want about Trump, but I dare say that this would not have happened if Hillary had won.


Trump: Meeting cancelled because of North Korea's "tremendous anger and open hostility".

For once I agree with you, definitely wouldn't have happened if Hilary was President.

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After 60+ years of politicians-turned-presidents who never could solve the North Korean equation or just punted it down the road, here comes a businessman-turned-president who takes a hard line,



And ended up with the same result as 60+ years of politicians-turned-presidents. Surprising exactly no-one except him and you. And maybe a few others who watch too much Fox and still believe in magic.

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To think all the lefties were screaming that Trump was gonna start WWIII. :P



And today Trump has not only spoken with the Joint Chiefs about being ready to attack North Korea, he has also spoken to South Korea and Japan about joining in and helping pay for any attack.

"Peace in our time" right?;)
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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nolhtairt

Yeah well, this is all on Kim Jong Un and his stooges. Getting all snippy...



If only someone could have predicted it... But unfortunately no-one knew North Korea was so complicated.:D

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Ever think of the possibility that Trump weaseled the three Korean American prisoners out of North Korea? That's a slap to KJU's face.



Ever thought about how Obama weaseled a bunch of hostages out of North Korea without dragging the diplomatic credibility of the US through the mud?

Quote

Hell, Trump even trolled KJU in this official letter.


And that's good diplomacy that will help the peace process, is it?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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nolhtairt

***>Quite frankly, I'm amazed at the rapid change in North Korea's tone from defiance to conciliatory.
>Say what you want about Trump, but I dare say that this would not have happened if Hillary had
>won. . . . . Well done, Trump. Give that man the Nobel Peace Prize.

Yeah . . . so, about that . . .



Yeah well, this is all on Kim Jong Un and his stooges. Getting all snippy... Ever think of the possibility that Trump weaseled the three Korean American prisoners out of North Korea? That's a slap to KJU's face.

Hell, Trump even trolled KJU in this official letter. :D

I think there's a real possibility that KJU was hoping Trump would see that it was bullshit but then be dumb enough to turn him down. We'd never hear the end of the time the President was approached for a meeting to end hostilities with North Korea but turned it down.

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rump: Meeting cancelled because of North Korea's "tremendous anger and open hostility".

No-one could have foreseen that Pence publicly discussing applying a Libya strategy to North Korea could have produced such a response. After all, Libya is such a great model to follow:
2003: Libya agrees to give up its nuclear program and chemical weapons in exchange for lifting of sanctions.
2011: revolutionaries, backed by the US and other Western governments, apprehend and kill Gaddafi.
:S:S>:(
Why would anyone expect the Dear Leader (not the Orange Mango Dear Leader, the other one) to be happy about a plan that goes, more or less: unilaterally disarm now, and we'll kill you later. The whole point of North Korea pursuing nuclear weapons is that they are paranoid (not unreasonably) that the US is out to destroy them, and only the threat of a nuclear attack is sufficient to deter US aggression. What kind of an idiot brings up a model where the end outcome is exactly what the North Koreans most fear? Unless, of course, Pence is in cahoots with Bolton in preferring war over a diplomatic solution.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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nolhtairt

***>Quite frankly, I'm amazed at the rapid change in North Korea's tone from defiance to conciliatory.
>Say what you want about Trump, but I dare say that this would not have happened if Hillary had
>won. . . . . Well done, Trump. Give that man the Nobel Peace Prize.

Yeah . . . so, about that . . .



Yeah well, this is all on Kim Jong Un and his stooges. Getting all snippy... Ever think of the possibility that Trump weaseled the three Korean American prisoners out of North Korea? That's a slap to KJU's face.

Hell, Trump even trolled KJU in this official letter. :D

Below is the NK letter to trump.

"At an interview with Fox News on May 21, US Vice-President Pence made unbridled and impudent remarks that North Korea might end like Libya, military option for North Korea never came off the table, the US needs complete, verifiable and irreversible denuclearisation, and so on.

As a person involved in the US affairs, I cannot suppress my surprise at such ignorant and stupid remarks gushing out from the mouth of the US vice-president.

If he is vice-president of "single superpower" as is in name, it will be proper for him to know even a little bit about the current state of global affairs and to sense to a certain degree the trends in dialogue and the climate of détente.

We could surmise more than enough what a political dummy he is as he is trying to compare the DPRK, a nuclear weapon state, to Libya that had simply installed a few items of equipment and fiddled around with them.

Soon after the White House National Security Adviser Bolton made the reckless remarks, Vice-President Pence has again spat out nonsense that the DPRK would follow in Libya's footstep.

It is to be underlined, however, that in order not to follow in Libya's footstep, we paid a heavy price to build up our powerful and reliable strength that can defend ourselves and safeguard peace and security in the Korean peninsula and the region.

In view of the remarks of the US high-ranking politicians who have not yet woken up to this stark reality and compare the DPRK to Libya that met a tragic fate, I come to think that they know too little about us.

To borrow their words, we can also make the US taste an appalling tragedy it has neither experienced nor even imagined up to now.

Before making such reckless threatening remarks without knowing exactly who he is facing, Pence should have seriously considered the terrible consequences of his words.

It is the US who has asked for dialogue, but now it is misleading the public opinion as if we have invited them to sit with us.

I only wonder what is the ulterior motive behind its move and what is it the US has calculated to gain from that.

We will neither beg the US for dialogue nor take the trouble to persuade them if they do not want to sit together with us.

Whether the US will meet us at a meeting room or encounter us at nuclear-to-nuclear showdown is entirely dependent upon the decision and behavior of the United States.

In case the US offends against our goodwill and clings to unlawful and outrageous acts, I will put forward a suggestion to our supreme leadership for reconsidering the DPRK-US summit."
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/full-statement-by-north-koreas-vice-foreign-minister-and-nuclear-negotiator-choe-son

Perhaps the big mouths of trump, Pence should be part of a reflection as to who said what. Making threats, trump's idea of a prudent "art of the non-deal".

According to trump his son in law was going to solve middle east peace. How's that going? According to trump a Nobel Peace prize was on the agenda. Has the committee received the trump nomination yet?

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billvon

>Why would anyone expect the Dear Leader . . .to be happy about a plan that goes, more or
>less: unilaterally disarm now, and we'll kill you later.

But . . but . . . Trump already had the trophies made!



They're on sale now. Personally, I'd wait for them to go on clearance
I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1

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yoink

I was going to cure cancer and solve world hunger. But then I didn't.
Do I get a Nobel prize too?



Only if you've already minted coins to commemorate your accomplishments.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

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DJL

I actually give credit to Trump for utilizing the "break up with them first" tactic. This bullshit wasn't going to go anywhere.



I'm not sure he deserves the credit. NK essentially invited Trump & Pence to educate themselves about the world or keep their ignorant asses home, and did so only slightly more diplomatically than that.

Trump's response can be considered, at best, weak & impotent.

(Credit to Phil1111 for the link.)
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

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I honestly believe that China is the true player in this. We need to enact the tariffs against China, and state simply we will not trade with China as long as they support North Korea having nuclear weapons.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/north-korea-summit-crumbled-after-china-lined-against-it-n877341

China was starting to impose more sanctions in N. Korea which force them to the table, but after the 2nd meeting between Xi and Kim it seems those sanctions started to crumble.

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DanG

Quote

...and state simply we will not trade with China...



Ha! That's a good one. Tell me another.



^^^
Yeah!

Start a war to avoid a war. IMO South Korea, Pompeo, and NK can continue discussions. It will take some effort to get over the whole Libya model.

How Kim-Trump tensions escalated: The more the U.S. said ‘Libya,’ the angrier North Korea got
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/world/wp/2018/05/24/the-more-pence-and-trump-say-libya-the-angrier-north-korea-gets/?utm_term=.ae72071c7ca3

For the uninitiated. The Libya model is give up your nuclear weapons program and then seven years later. NATO will come by to destroy your military, so armed mobs can catch you hiding in a water culvert and kill you.

The Ukrainian model also comes to mind.
"The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances refers to three identical political agreements signed at the OSCE conference in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories relating to the accession of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents.[1]

The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

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AlanS

We need to enact the tariffs against China, and state simply we will not trade with China as long as they support North Korea having nuclear weapons.



Sigh. Computers were fun while they lasted.

The United States do not have the bargaining power over China that you seem to think they have.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

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AlanS

I honestly believe that China is the true player in this. We need to enact the tariffs against China, and state simply we will not trade with China as long as they support North Korea having nuclear weapons.



Response 1: Sure! And in 50 years time when the US economy recovers you can start negotiating the next step with NK.

Response 2: Ok, but as long as we’re believing in magic why not just make all of Kim’s weapons disappear and have done with it?

I really can’t decide, which one works better?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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jcd11235

***We need to enact the tariffs against China, and state simply we will not trade with China as long as they support North Korea having nuclear weapons.



Sigh. Computers were fun while they lasted.

The United States do not have the bargaining power over China that you seem to think they have.

All we have to do is quit buying stuff from them. That would sure teach them a lesson!

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winsor

******We need to enact the tariffs against China, and state simply we will not trade with China as long as they support North Korea having nuclear weapons.



Sigh. Computers were fun while they lasted.

The United States do not have the bargaining power over China that you seem to think they have.

All we have to do is quit buying stuff from them. That would sure teach them a lesson!

Unfortunately it's not up to the consumer anymore. People complain about Walmart selling stuff from China but it's not like anyone else is selling stuff that isn't.
How much are we willing to put up with so that well off people can buy a computer or smart phone at ridiculously low prices?
Even with the suicides at Fox in China and the pictures of people sleeping under their workstations we aren't willing to pay reasonable prices.
We buy cheap toys, subsidized by the misery of people with no power. Then we spend ten times as much on more and more security forces to keep us safe from those people when they get so desperate that they lash out.

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>How much are we willing to put up with so that well off people can buy a computer or smart
>phone at ridiculously low prices?

Or - more to the point - how much are we willing to put up with so that middle class people can buy smart phones, instead of them being a toy only available to the rich?

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