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megamalfunction

Roy Halladay Crash - Wreckless Flying Over The Gulf

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Anybody else seen the footage of Roy Halladay's low turns over the gulf just prior to his crash? Do you suppose he didn't know any better? As a skydiver I know that we lose altitude in turns, and apparently Icon A5s do too! What do you guys think?

http://www.tmz.com/2017/11/08/roy-halladay-plane-crash-video-witnesses-showboating/

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megamalfunction

Anybody else seen the footage of Roy Halladay's low turns over the gulf just prior to his crash? Do you suppose he didn't know any better? As a skydiver I know that we lose altitude in turns, and apparently Icon A5s do too! What do you guys think?

http://www.tmz.com/2017/11/08/roy-halladay-plane-crash-video-witnesses-showboating/



Possibly hot dogging. Possibly had loss of power and turned back toward land. Bad set down in either case.

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Purchaser's agreement controversy

In April 2016 the ICON A5 purchaser's agreement was made public and was noted by the aviation media as containing many controversial elements not usually found in aircraft purchase agreements. These include contractually required pilot training, maintenance, agreements not to sue, the requirement for factory airframe overhauls every 2,000 hours or ten years (whichever comes first), and a limit on the aircraft's life of 6,000 hours, or thirty years. Furthermore, each aircraft would be equipped with a camera and recorder to monitor pilot behavior, that is owned by the manufacturer but must be maintained by the owner. Owners would have to agree to be "supportive" of the company. Future owners were required to sign the same agreement or face penalties.[50][51]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICON_A5

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Well, of course you don't need to lose altitude in turns. (In any normal powered aircraft at normal G loadings.) Learning to make proper level turns is a basic part of getting one's license.

From one source I heard he had 700 hours since 2013. So he wasn't a total newb, and had some experience on the Icon, despite having picked his own one up recently.

But my guess is also that he was just having too much fun down low, without flying accurately. Don't hit the ground (including water) at 100 mph.

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pchapman

Well, of course you don't need to lose altitude in turns. (In any normal powered aircraft at normal G loadings.) Learning to make proper level turns is a basic part of getting one's license.

From one source I heard he had 700 hours since 2013. So he wasn't a total newb, and had some experience on the Icon, despite having picked his own one up recently.

But my guess is also that he was just having too much fun down low, without flying accurately. Don't hit the ground (including water) at 100 mph.




I've heard that there are several things that are absolutely useless in flying. Altitude above you, runway behind you, gas on the ground, and a minute ago. He had lots of runway all around (if it was calm enough). Don't know about the gas. But he had too much altitude above and not enough below. Almost all crashes happen at ground level.
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Niki1

***Well, of course you don't need to lose altitude in turns. (In any normal powered aircraft at normal G loadings.) Learning to make proper level turns is a basic part of getting one's license.

From one source I heard he had 700 hours since 2013. So he wasn't a total newb, and had some experience on the Icon, despite having picked his own one up recently.

But my guess is also that he was just having too much fun down low, without flying accurately. Don't hit the ground (including water) at 100 mph.




I've heard that there are several things that are absolutely useless in flying. Altitude above you, runway behind you, gas on the ground, and a minute ago. He had lots of runway all around (if it was calm enough). Don't know about the gas. But he had too much altitude above and not enough below. Almost all crashes happen at ground level.

Or at least in the air, at sea level, or below sea level.

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Although I only have 37 hours in a Cessna 152 (a long time ago) I believe you can maintain altitude in a turn if you are flying a powered aircraft. Also, going near the surface of the water at (reported 5 feet) is (I think, not a big deal) if your airplane is amphibious. That is probably how you practice landings. Now, going that low at high speed - I don't know.

So, the boaters say he was "hot dogging"?. These observers made up that term. Their opinion. Non aviators may have an opinion and not know what they are talking about. I do not accept that term as being true without some other info. If he was pushing or playing aggressively, so what. If you are skilled enough and in control it seems like that is simply another way to have fun/to play. The critics are labeling him as a foolish knave because the non aviation observers labeled him as a hot dogger. Maybe he wasn't at all, but just having fun. I don't see anyone pushing a toy to it's thrill limits as foolish in and of itself. Pushing your limits in any speed sport is risky though if you don't have the skills to pull it off, and you can pay by losing your life. Skydiving, Base jumping, motorcycling, flying etc.. Yes; he lacked the skill on that day and that moment and paid for it with his life. I get that. But to condemn his actions by the wholesale comment, "He was hot dogging", and dismiss him seems unfair. If a person buys a Maserati/ Ford GT/Ferrari, Ducati motorcycle and goes fast - seems normal to me. Buying a fun airplane and wringing it out also seems normal to me. Yes, the slightest mistake in any speed sport can kill you. But that doesn't automatically lead me to disrespect. This pilot just make a fatal mistake that day. I respect him as a guy who lived the adventure life. Died doing what he loved.

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'hot dogging' can easily apply to someone that is of low experience regardless of what the maneuvers are. a swooper with 25000 jumps carving through the landing area and between the buildings gets more of a 'pass' than the 100 jump wonder, who, if trying the same maneuver is absolutely, 100% hot-dogging it. experience matters. It is not a made up term, it is used every day.

I have no idea what Halladay has for experience, but I expect he was indeed, 'hot-dogging' it with not enough experience to manage the situations he was putting himself in, or the ability to even understand the risks. He was described as 'entry level' pilot in the news, and flying one of the newest machines on the market.

I vote for the accuracy of the term "Hot-dogging". Sadly he paid the price for whatever he was doing.

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Quote

a swooper with 25000 jumps carving through the landing area and between the buildings gets more of a 'pass' than the 100 jump wonder

...

I vote for the accuracy of the term "Hot-dogging". Sadly he paid the price for whatever he was doing.



Sierra Hotel: For some it means Shit Hot. For others it means Smoking Hole.
Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

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dpreguy

Although I only have 37 hours in a Cessna 152 (a long time ago) I believe you can maintain altitude in a turn if you are flying a powered aircraft. Also, going near the surface of the water at (reported 5 feet) is (I think, not a big deal) if your airplane is amphibious. That is probably how you practice landings. Now, going that low at high speed - I don't know.



You can maintain altitude in most turns but there's no free lunch here. Depending on the bank angle, you likely will need more elevator back pressure (need more lift due to the redirection of your vertical component of lift) and in a steeper turn, more power (to overcome the additional drag from the extra lift you're generating). If you load up enough G forces, you can also raise your stall speed (due to increased load factor) sufficiently to stall the aircraft during the turn (not a good thing to do during low altitude operations).

It's also interesting that the FAA doesn't require pilots to demonstrate an accelerated stall for their private (which I believe Roy held) certificate since they're considered 'demonstration stalls'. The CFI is supposed to demonstrate it during the training for the student however it's possible an instructor wouldn't bother demonstrate it since many stick to the PTS/ACS maneuvers required for the students certification.

dpreguy


If you are skilled enough and in control it seems like that is simply another way to have fun/to play.



The problem is that even if you're skilled enough, sometimes things don't go well anyways and being at low attitudes doesn't give you any room for error.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/accidents/pilot-killed-in-plane-crash-at-tampa-executive-airport/2185491

I've flown with Ki, in the accident aircraft. He flew it somewhat aggressively (but not as hard as and it just happens that this one time, it didn't work out. That's all it took. He flew the plane nearly daily to-from work at the airport I learned to fly at.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't fly low and enjoy their aircraft (it sure as hell is fun to see the ground screaming past you some times), what I am saying is that there is an increased risk in doing so and something that would be so benign as an accelerated stall at 3,000 AGL has a whole different set of issues when it happens much lower.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
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tkhayes

'hot dogging' can easily apply to someone that is of low experience regardless of what the maneuvers are. a swooper with 25000 jumps carving through the landing area and between the buildings gets more of a 'pass' than the 100 jump wonder, who, if trying the same maneuver is absolutely, 100% hot-dogging it. experience matters. It is not a made up term, it is used every day.

I have no idea what Halladay has for experience, but I expect he was indeed, 'hot-dogging' it with not enough experience to manage the situations he was putting himself in, or the ability to even understand the risks. He was described as 'entry level' pilot in the news, and flying one of the newest machines on the market.

I vote for the accuracy of the term "Hot-dogging". Sadly he paid the price for whatever he was doing.



Water skiing 180/185.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OAEGPVcvhU
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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A couple of our jump pilots who also flew crop dusters, showed us video of them water skiing on canals when on contract in the Sudan many years ago. Those guys were expert pilots, and nearly all of them had survived crashes at various times in their careers.

Mostly due to engine failures. One guy had had 13 crashes. Working at speed close to the ground leaves them no where to go. Especially over broken/hilly terrain. Quite a few hit unmarked cables and wires. I know quite a few who didn't survive, and a few who sustained serious injuries.

None of them were hot doggers. Great to have as jump pilots though, you knew if there was a problem with the aircraft, those guys would always remain calm and deal with the problem.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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>If he was pushing or playing aggressively, so what.

It's his choice. And in this case, he paid the price.

>Maybe he wasn't at all, but just having fun.

I think he was doing both. I did that when I was a new pilot (~200 hours) - I'd go into the mountains near Sacramento and fly down narrow canyons. It was fun - but also pretty stupid. There were zero outs. If I got killed doing that, and someone said "he was hot dogging" they'd be right.

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billvon

>If he was pushing or playing aggressively, so what.

It's his choice. And in this case, he paid the price.

>Maybe he wasn't at all, but just having fun.

I think he was doing both. I did that when I was a new pilot (~200 hours) - I'd go into the mountains near Sacramento and fly down narrow canyons. It was fun - but also pretty stupid. There were zero outs. If I got killed doing that, and someone said "he was hot dogging" they'd be right.



About 20 years ago my brother, his wife and our dad flew in his Bonanza from Watsonville, CA to the San Jose airport to pick me up. On the way back, he got over the mountain range between US101 and the coast only to find solid cloud cover all the way to the Pacific... so he flew south along US101 until route 152 and followed that through the gap under the clouds. We were sidewinding through the curves following 152 with steep mountain slopes on both sides. He called it "scud-running". That was an interesting experience.
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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Roy Halladay Autopsy Findings Catch Industry by Surprise
Multiple banned drugs were found in the pilot’s system.


the Pasco and Pinellas County Coroner’s report discovered the former ball player had enough mood-altering drugs in his system to confirm he shouldn’t have been driving a car, much less flying an airplane.

Halladay’s blood report listed zolpidem, amphetamine, free morphine and ethanol, while the urine test uncovered cotinine, dihydromorphone, fluoxetine, hydromorphone, morphine, morphine metabolities, nicotine and zolpidem. A physician/pilot I spoke to about the results said there was no doubt Halladay was “soused,” when he crashed. He also said some of the drugs, most of which are not on the FAA’s list of approved medications, were essentially contradictory, like zolpidem, a generic name for Ambien, a sleep aid, and amphetamine and Adderall a medication to perk people up and is often used to treat ADD. Fluoxetine was another strange addition to this medical cocktail of Halladay’s. Fluoxetine is a generic name for Prozac used to treat depression.

https://www.flyingmag.com/roy-halladay-autopsy-findings-catch-industry-by-surprise

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Phil1111

Roy Halladay Autopsy Findings Catch Industry by Surprise
Multiple banned drugs were found in the pilot’s system.


the Pasco and Pinellas County Coroner’s report discovered the former ball player had enough mood-altering drugs in his system to confirm he shouldn’t have been driving a car, much less flying an airplane.

Halladay’s blood report listed zolpidem, amphetamine, free morphine and ethanol, while the urine test uncovered cotinine, dihydromorphone, fluoxetine, hydromorphone, morphine, morphine metabolities, nicotine and zolpidem. A physician/pilot I spoke to about the results said there was no doubt Halladay was “soused,” when he crashed. He also said some of the drugs, most of which are not on the FAA’s list of approved medications, were essentially contradictory, like zolpidem, a generic name for Ambien, a sleep aid, and amphetamine and Adderall a medication to perk people up and is often used to treat ADD. Fluoxetine was another strange addition to this medical cocktail of Halladay’s. Fluoxetine is a generic name for Prozac used to treat depression.

https://www.flyingmag.com/roy-halladay-autopsy-findings-catch-industry-by-surprise



Airline passengers are creating havoc by taking Ambien before flying. But a pilot?

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