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Bob_Church

Good news and bad news for kids in cave

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>I also read somewhere that the pressure in the cave might be responsible for keeping the
>water level under control. It was just speculation from a few days ago, when details were scarce,
>but if that were to be the case then drilling a shaft could be detrimental.

This may turn out to be a bit of good news. If that's the case, then pumping in compressed air (they are already running a line for this) will keep water levels lower.

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billvon

>I also read somewhere that the pressure in the cave might be responsible for keeping the
>water level under control. It was just speculation from a few days ago, when details were scarce,
>but if that were to be the case then drilling a shaft could be detrimental.

This may turn out to be a bit of good news. If that's the case, then pumping in compressed air (they are already running a line for this) will keep water levels lower.



Kind of like a diving bell. They will soon figure that out with compressed air and a pressure gauge. (like an alti). Could be their only hope.

With regard to hoses going into the chamber, that 70 cm hole will be reduced in size by them, meaning it might be difficult for anyone to get in or out. The extra people in there with them will also be eating into their oxygen supply.

A lot of problems to overcome.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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dpreguy

Newest bad news: The portion of the cave they are trapped in is running out of oxygen.



If they do come up with a system for getting them out one at a time I wonder if they'll even bother bringing out the coach. He'll have a short life in there, but maybe a longer one than if the parents get their hands on him.

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Bob_Church

***Newest bad news: The portion of the cave they are trapped in is running out of oxygen.



If they do come up with a system for getting them out one at a time I wonder if they'll even bother bringing out the coach. He'll have a short life in there, but maybe a longer one than if the parents get their hands on him.

The parents aren't blaming him.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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>With regard to hoses going into the chamber, that 70 cm hole will be reduced in size by them,
>meaning it might be difficult for anyone to get in or out.

You can get a lot of air through a .5 inch hose at high pressures. Assuming 10 cubic feet per minute (more than enough for 20 people) you'd see only a 20psi backpressure over a mile of .5 inch ID hose. With compressors able to supply 3000 psi off the shelf, that's a lot of margin.

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The air pressure hoses will not be a problem, as you say.

But if they start running things like phone lines, fresh water lines, perhaps a line to take away waste products, then things might get a tad congested in that narrow gap.

With that many people in such a small area, over a longer period of time, hygiene then becomes a big problem.

In their weakened state, illness can run rampant and kill them just as effectively as the immediate threats they face.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Bob_Church

***Newest bad news: The portion of the cave they are trapped in is running out of oxygen.



If they do come up with a system for getting them out one at a time I wonder if they'll even bother bringing out the coach. He'll have a short life in there, but maybe a longer one than if the parents get their hands on him.

Where are you getting the idea that the coach is being blamed by anyone (parents, authorities, ect). I haven't seen that anywhere.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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>The air pressure hoses will not be a problem, as you say.

>But if they start running things like phone lines, fresh water lines, perhaps a line to take away
>waste products, then things might get a tad congested in that narrow gap.

Right, they might. But what do they really need?

They need air; they are working on that now.

They need water. Fortunately they are surrounded by it. You could make do with a simple iodine treatment kit, or a good filter, or a full-on pumped R/O filter kit. That's not going to be a problem; those things are available for backpackers and sailors now, and are very small. (And if the water level drops so much they can't get to it, then their problems are over.)

They need food. That can be delivered by divers. If they can't get divers in, or it becomes too risky, they can pipe it in via an even smaller hose (call it 1/4" ID.) There's plenty of liquid foods out there intended for NG feeding, designed to run through even smaller hoses.

They might want electric power, for heat and light. You can get a few kilowatts in via a line that's 1/2" on the outside. (And you can get phone via PLC on the same line; heck, you could even get Internet access.)

For waste all they really need are plastic bags, maybe a camp toilet. While there's not a lot of room on the ledge, there's a lot of room in the cave they are in.

They need stuff - clothing, blankets, toilet paper. That's relatively hard but not impossible. The biggest problem there will be bulk, both because bulky items are hard to tow and they are hard to ballast so you're not dealing with 100 pounds of lift while you are tugging the bag through the passage underwater.

So all in all you're going to lose about a square inch of access. And that's if you don't enlarge that opening, which I have a feeling they are considering as well. To do all that you will need a few good engineers and some money - but with all the worldwide attention this is getting that shouldn't be too hard.

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wolfriverjoe

******Newest bad news: The portion of the cave they are trapped in is running out of oxygen.



If they do come up with a system for getting them out one at a time I wonder if they'll even bother bringing out the coach. He'll have a short life in there, but maybe a longer one than if the parents get their hands on him.

Where are you getting the idea that the coach is being blamed by anyone (parents, authorities, ect). I haven't seen that anywhere.

That's one of the strangest questions I've ever been asked. And I can't imagine anything I could add that would make it any more obvious than it already is.

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billvon

>The air pressure hoses will not be a problem, as you say.

>But if they start running things like phone lines, fresh water lines, perhaps a line to take away
>waste products, then things might get a tad congested in that narrow gap.

Right, they might. But what do they really need? I think toilet paper is the least of their worries. Soy Boy. Shoulda taught them how to swim first. I had my kids in the water at 6 mths.

They need air; they are working on that now.

They need water. Fortunately they are surrounded by it. You could make do with a simple iodine treatment kit, or a good filter, or a full-on pumped R/O filter kit. That's not going to be a problem; those things are available for backpackers and sailors now, and are very small. (And if the water level drops so much they can't get to it, then their problems are over.)

They need food. That can be delivered by divers. If they can't get divers in, or it becomes too risky, they can pipe it in via an even smaller hose (call it 1/4" ID.) There's plenty of liquid foods out there intended for NG feeding, designed to run through even smaller hoses.

They might want electric power, for heat and light. You can get a few kilowatts in via a line that's 1/2" on the outside. (And you can get phone via PLC on the same line; heck, you could even get Internet access.)

For waste all they really need are plastic bags, maybe a camp toilet. While there's not a lot of room on the ledge, there's a lot of room in the cave they are in.

They need stuff - clothing, blankets, toilet paper. That's relatively hard but not impossible. The biggest problem there will be bulk, both because bulky items are hard to tow and they are hard to ballast so you're not dealing with 100 pounds of lift while you are tugging the bag through the passage underwater.

So all in all you're going to lose about a square inch of access. And that's if you don't enlarge that opening, which I have a feeling they are considering as well. To do all that you will need a few good engineers and some money - but with all the worldwide attention this is getting that shouldn't be too hard.


I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

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billvon

To do all that you will need a few good engineers and some money - but with all the worldwide attention this is getting that shouldn't be too hard.



Enter Elon Musk .

Quote

Tesla and SpaceX boss Elon Musk has said there has been "some good feedback" from experts helping to rescue the football team trapped in a Thai cave.

The billionaire entrepreneur has sent engineers to help the boys, aged 11 to 16, and their football coach who have been stuck in a cave following a flash flood for almost two weeks.





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I've been scannning the news sites this morning;
It sounds like they have given up on the idea of running an air/O2 hose due to the difficulty of threading it through the caves. And due to the rapidly declining O2 levels and rising CO2 levels, the probability is increasing that they will try to bring them out via buddy diving.:o
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-07/thai-cave-rescue-expert-divers-to-guide-trapped-soccer-team-out/9952924

There's a graphic on that page that helps show how much effort it took for the soccer team and coach to get to where they are. The main portion of the cave for visiting was set to close on July 1 for the rainy season. Going into there would have been one thing, though doing so without parents' knowledge let alone consent wouldn't have been smart. But then they ignored a lot of signs saying basically "don't even think about going past this point. EVER!!" This would have been unthinkable any time of year but especially near the end of June.

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>It sounds like they have given up on the idea of running an air/O2 hose due to the difficulty
>of threading it through the caves.

That's too bad, because it increases the odds of them making a decision based on speed rather than on effectiveness/safety.

ps. one of the more annoying things the press never gets right is the difference between air and oxygen. Pure oxygen is almost never used for diving.

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billvon


ps. one of the more annoying things the press never gets right is the difference between air and oxygen. Pure oxygen is almost never used for diving.



Agreed.
That was why I said O2/air, since I wasn't sure which they meant.

But now here is an article that says it has already been done:

Rescuers have fed a kilometres-long air pipe into the cave to restore oxygen levels in the chamber where the team are sheltering, accompanied by medics and expert divers.

Source: https://www.afp.com/en/news/205/conditions-perfect-evacuation-thai-boys-cave-doc-17a6wy6

BBC is saying the same:

There are concerns about the falling oxygen level in the chamber, but officials say an air line into the cave has now been installed.

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44748924
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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Bob_Church

*********Newest bad news: The portion of the cave they are trapped in is running out of oxygen.



If they do come up with a system for getting them out one at a time I wonder if they'll even bother bringing out the coach. He'll have a short life in there, but maybe a longer one than if the parents get their hands on him.

Where are you getting the idea that the coach is being blamed by anyone (parents, authorities, ect). I haven't seen that anywhere.

That's one of the strangest questions I've ever been asked. And I can't imagine anything I could add that would make it any more obvious than it already is.

Well, you seem to be jumping to the conclusion that the coach is being blamed by the parents and authorities.

I have yet to see that anywhere in the stories I have read.

He may be to blame. He may face consequences (if he survives).

But my question stands:

Where are you getting the idea that the coach is being blamed for this? From any particular reports, or just your own head?
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Quote

Well, you seem to be jumping to the conclusion that the coach is being blamed by the parents and authorities.

I have yet to see that anywhere in the stories I have read.

He may be to blame. He may face consequences (if he survives).

But my question stands:

Where are you getting the idea that the coach is being blamed for this? From any particular reports, or just your own head?



The culture of the Thai people, based on Buddhism, is very different to western ideas about blame, life and death etc.

So they will accept whatever happens, with the attitude that it was meant to be.

Not to say they won't be sad and upset if their loved ones are lost. But they will not apportion blame.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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"I have yet to see that anywhere in the stories I have read"

One of their stated primary goals is to keep morale high. So no, nobody is talking about it for now. But 12 children were taken four kilometers into a cave complex where conditions are so bad now that one rescue diver has died. So far.
This is with nobody's knowledge, let alone permission. They only knew they were in the cave when someone noticed their bikes and stuff outside.
So yes, it's just in my head, but I suspect there will be questions asked and some seriously pissed off people waiting for this guy.

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obelixtim

Quote

Well, you seem to be jumping to the conclusion that the coach is being blamed by the parents and authorities.

I have yet to see that anywhere in the stories I have read.

He may be to blame. He may face consequences (if he survives).

But my question stands:

Where are you getting the idea that the coach is being blamed for this? From any particular reports, or just your own head?



The culture of the Thai people, based on Buddhism, is very different to western ideas about blame, life and death etc.

So they will accept whatever happens, with the attitude that it was meant to be.

Not to say they won't be sad and upset if their loved ones are lost. But they will not apportion blame.



We'll see, but I think you may be leaning on the culture thing a bit hard.

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ryoder

***
ps. one of the more annoying things the press never gets right is the difference between air and oxygen. Pure oxygen is almost never used for diving.



Agreed.
That was why I said O2/air, since I wasn't sure which they meant.

But now here is an article that says it has already been done:

Rescuers have fed a kilometres-long air pipe into the cave to restore oxygen levels in the chamber where the team are sheltering, accompanied by medics and expert divers.

Source: https://www.afp.com/en/news/205/conditions-perfect-evacuation-thai-boys-cave-doc-17a6wy6

BBC is saying the same:

There are concerns about the falling oxygen level in the chamber, but officials say an air line into the cave has now been installed.

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44748924

I wouldn't rule out liquid oxygen eventually. It could be provided by one of the mobile units like they bring to airshows for some of the aircraft and then moving a little would give them a lot.

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Bob_Church


I wouldn't rule out liquid oxygen eventually. It could be provided by one of the mobile units like they bring to airshows for some of the aircraft and then moving a little would give them a lot.



Low O2 levels in the ambient air is only half the problem.
The other half is elevated CO2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercapnia

Setting up compressors outside the cave gives them access to unlimited air, (and is easier than finding containers of 02), and it addresses both problems.
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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ryoder

***
I wouldn't rule out liquid oxygen eventually. It could be provided by one of the mobile units like they bring to airshows for some of the aircraft and then moving a little would give them a lot.



Low O2 levels in the ambient air is only half the problem.
The other half is elevated CO2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercapnia

Setting up compressors outside the cave gives them access to unlimited air, (and is easier than finding containers of 02), and it addresses both problems.

I wonder how sealed off the chamber is. Will it vent itself or just slowly lower the water level without getting rid of the CO2?
And if the hose isn't quite big enough there are oxygen concentrators that might be a good compromise.

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