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yuri_base

Wingsuit research

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platypii

Not replying to any particular post, just bringing back the original topic of ws research, and thought I would share some real-world data that might be interesting to people.

Data from over 2000 different wingsuit gps tracks (sky and base) plotted as a polar chart. Ground speed on horizontal axis, fallrate on vertical axis (mph). The tracks were classified by flight mode, and the points colored according to:
Ground = brown
Plane = red
Wingsuit = purple
Canopy = green

This chart helped me understand the typical wingsuit performance envelope a lot better, and was critical in building a tool to automatically recognize different flight modes based on GPS data.




Very solid, interesting work! That's what I'm talking about. And has been calling for this for 12 years, and finally there are people like Kenny and Hartman who are doing this.

This is what scientific R&D is like, data, charts, formulas, software, - not just blah-blah-blah and insults we've seen a lot of in this thread, and I've seen a ton of this in many years.

Kudos, Kenny!

Halle-fucking-luja!!! It's happening! WSR-2018! I called for WSR as early as 2006-2007, but heard only *crickets* in response.

I feel like I'm not alone in the Solar System (and possibly, the whole Universe) anymore. Science will win. "All your base are belong to us!" B|

[inline YurisRevenge.jpg]
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Overlaid const L/D BASE jump polar curves (current Vx, Vy, not sustained), some resemblance in that "hook" shape. (Of course, data from so many pilots in unknown winds, will pepper large areas in polar space, but still...)

[inline baseline-polar-withWSE.jpg]
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baseline-polar-withWSE.jpg

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2595782;page=1;mh=-1;;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC

Jeez, I totally forgot about all this old stuff from 2006-7, there was a lot of enthusiasm back then, ideas flowing like a flashflood (lots o' trolls, too, and noise)... I wish we had this enthusiasm in the WS community/industry all these years! Maybe, with me hammering here, we'll see it resurrect in 2018?! I hope!

yuri_base

Happy New Revolutionary 2007 Year, all!!! ;)

Made a bunch of experiments with V-2 at Z-Hills, it was a lot of fun!

1. Experimented with ankle weights from 0 to ~15lbs. The best glide seemed to be with Hanwags and 5lbs. weight. The glide (flying relative to clouds) seemed to be INSANE, visually similar to Spectre with rear risers maxed out. ~3.0??? The damn thing just wants to fly! It just wants to fly forward FAST while it is barely moving down. It felt scary, as if something was wrong... "It's like cocaine"!!! ;) It's unbelievably fast and perfect flying machine! It flies almost as good as Maggot tracks! :P

2. Unfortunately, V-2 has [at least, the way my suit fits me] an arm wing inflation problem. That's why the ankle weights are required to compensate for the loss of lift/balance from the arm wing. By looking at the arm wing on several flights, I noticed that it looked like it was not inflated properly. It looked lacking the internal pressure and the same wrinkles that I observed while lightly stretching the wing on the ground were observed in the air as if there was no internal pressure to smooth them out. The trailing edge of the wing was flapping like crazy unless there was a very specific amount of stretch applied to it. In comparison, Phantom wing looks nicely inflated and "puffy" in the air, with a lot of range in lift. The V-2's wing, in comparison, seemed to be "dead", static.

3. I noticed that the arm inlets are wide open, but they seem to be pushed back by the wind so much that they are blocking the opening itself. Inserted the halves of Gatorade bottle cut lengthwise to insure the openings are forced open, and the inflation returned, with much more lift from the arm wings. Now, the balance was thrown the other way around, I was much more flat with the horizon and the glide (relative to clouds) noticeably suffered. After ~40 flights on misbalanced suit, I had to relearn it again! I was also very tired by then and could not achieve any decent glide. The glide seemed to be similar to that of Prodigy pants alone.

4. Experimented with making the leading edge sharper by inserting the long "animal" balloons into arm wing. The lift was so insane that I couldn't hold my arms level. They were swept back. The glide was terrible. Total misbalance and stall of the suit. With this better profiled arm wing, it needs larger (longer?) leg wing to restore the balance and best AoA. The sharper leading edge is definitely something to be looked at to improve L/D.

5. By using VISO and its instant speed vs. time replay feature, I noticed that the vertical speed for the best glide was ~50mph, vs. ~42mph for the longest freefall times (my exit weight is 260lbs.; the speed is proportional to the square root of wingloading). So if you're trying to perfect your glide, don't try to minimize the fallrate: add ~20% to your minimum possible sustained fallrate, match that and achieve maximum horizontal speed you can achieve, and this will give you the best glide.



yuri_base

Made a few more flights today with my ghetto V-2. I mean, look at this shit!!! ;) (***pics Not Safe For Work!***)

Used a piece of a bicycle inner tube taped inside the wing to form a better leading edge. The performance is noticeably better. The balance is just about perfect, no weights needed anymore. The jury is still out on whether the wing is inflated properly, the flights with Gatorade Inlets™® and without them felt about the same, wing looked about the same. They were positioned poorly though. Further experiments with better designed inlets will show.

To answer some questions...

- Scott: 15lbs weight is total, for both legs. Having 7-8lbs on each leg makes legs pretty numb on landing.

- Fabien: animal balloons proved to be impractical, they blow up too easily. Inner tube is much better. So I posted pictures of better balloons. ;)

- Pendragon: chest strap is tight, the vents are well outside the harness. In fact, too much outside, so tension creates wrinkles in the vent area; this poor fit is probably the reason they don't work properly.

- Robi: weights are only a research tool. They are the cleanest way to change the pitch angle without changing the shape of the suit or body position. Once the sweet spot is found and its pitch angle and horizontal and vertical speeds are "memorized", the next step is to try to achieve the same balance aerodynamically, by adjusting the lift from arm and leg wings. One way to do it is to degrade one of the wings (e.g., reduce the pressure and partially collapse the leg wing in order to increase the pitch to more head-high). The overall result in this case depends on whether the improvement from the better AoA outweighs the decreased quality of the wing. The better way is to achieve better balance by improving the quality of the affected wing. Just like the better leading edge did.

It would be awesome to see inflatable pouches in arm and leg wings to morph the wing profile and even size&shape in the future versions of your high-performance suits! So that the flyers can fine-tune their balance with a little pump (included). :)
So let the high-performance WS Revolution begin!!! Here are my goals for 2007:

- build a system (called PFM System, PFM for Pure Fucking Magic ;)) to accurately measure L/D (acceleration-corrected) and horizontal/vertical speeds (true airspeed - wind and thermals independent) in real time. You will hear in the earphone a sexy voice, "2.4.... c'mon, fucker, you can do better! your horizontal speed is only 90mph, increase it to your sweet spot of 115mph.... 3.0... good boy! 4.0... Are you Maggot?!" :)
- measure the V-2's (with modifications) polar curve by varying the pitch angle using weights, find the sweet spot. Draw the coefficients of lift and drag as functions of AoA. These curves are golden, they will provide a lot of insight!

- enhance V-2 with better profiled arm wings, inlets. Possibly move the leading edge of the leg wing down, to where the mylar ribs start (about knee level), to form a wider, better profiled, "stand-alone" wing. Experiment with removing the back deflector altogether, it may have a negative influence on the stand-alone legwing.

- by enhancing the suit, balancing it and flying with real-time feedback system, achieve instant and precise muscle memory for stable L/D = 3.0 flights 95% of the time.

- share my results with others

Wake up, everybody! Together we can make some amazing things! Think, invent, experiment, fly, share, repeat. :)



Heffro1

Actually, Yuri is on to something! Balancing a suit to peoples individual centers of gravity will increase performance. The way to do this, however, is to change the ratio of arm wing surface area to leg wing surface area. Unless a pilot is balanced on a fulcrum point it is very difficult to determine the exact C/G. Adding weight might give better results over an unbalanced suit, but tailoring suits to peoples individual C/G's will give better performance gains. I've designed a table just for this, but I'm still figuring out the formula to translate to surface area ratios.




"- build a system (called PFM System, PFM for Pure Fucking Magic ;)) to accurately measure L/D (acceleration-corrected) and horizontal/vertical speeds (true airspeed - wind and thermals independent) in real time. You will hear in the earphone a sexy voice, "2.4.... c'mon, fucker, you can do better! your horizontal speed is only 90mph, increase it to your sweet spot of 115mph.... 3.0... good boy! 4.0... Are you Maggot?!" :)

Although I've built such a system, it's just says numbers only (and exit count), need to make it talk like AI. ;)

Those were the times! Now, it's a swamp, The CoW. Wake up, people!

MWGA!!!
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Experiment with removing the back deflector altogether, it may have a negative influence on the stand-alone legwing.



I actually did that, on my V-4, after a less than perfect landing on sharp rocks resulted in big cuts on the deflector - I decided to remove it altogether... and noticed zero effect on performance, vs. what was marketed as improving the laminar airflow over the back. This is an example of marketing BS and gimmicks. I believe innie-outie is such a gimmick as well. (I've only used it once and immediately felt that it's not necessary at all.)

Remember those times when having a small "refrigerator" on your butt was in fashion?

[inline BackDeflector.jpg]
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I feel like the chart I posted could benefit from some additional explanation. This is how it maps to a skydive or base jump at a high level:

[inline state-machine.png]

There's a fair amount of noise, but also its possible to hit a wide range of glide ratios, as has been discussed to death in this thread.

The polar view is especially interesting when it comes to flares. Here's a single wingsuit BASE jump with a really nice flare. You can see the exit, initial build up of downward velocity, followed by steady increasing horizontal speed. At the end of the jump, speed is converted into lift in the flare, and then gaining altitude before deploying the canopy.

[inline polar-flare.png]

The background ellipses are approximations based on the previous plot, so that you can have a quick visual reference for your speeds (UX design is research too)
BASEline - Wingsuit Flight Computer

state-machine.png

polar-flare.png

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I was able to match the flare perfectly by using Wingsuit Studio. Params used are in the screenshot below (5000ft altitude AMSL is not important, even if I guessed it wrong, the result won't change much).

Purrrrrrrrfect!!!

[inline Flare_WSS_Params.png]

[inline Flare_WSS_Polar.png]


Anyone still have doubts in WSE?!

WSE stand tall and proud, like 2001 Monolith. No one succeeded in toppling them down! Halle-fucking-luja!!! :P

[inline 2001.jpg]
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2001.jpg

Flare_WSS_Params.png

Flare_WSS_Polar.png

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Skydiving with a vane in Eloy in 2015 using L/D Magic running Kalman Filter #4, GPS and accelerometer (Dual Electronics XGPS150A at 5Hz was used, worn on my left hand). Snapped half of the stabilizer in the plane by accidentally stepping on it. Still flew stable like a rock!

https://youtu.be/kTIewCg1dZI

WSV #2, where art thou?...
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Come on already, show us some real HP flights then. Upload your data! the people want to know!

I think the point was to demonstrate a trend over a distribution of flight profiles. Even the current Kings Challenge fits, although the speeds are outside the bounds of his chart for a bit.
This isn't flying, its falling with style.

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jonmurrell

Come on already, show us some real HP flights then. Upload your data! the people want to know!

I think the point was to demonstrate a trend over a distribution of flight profiles. Even the current Kings Challenge fits, although the speeds are outside the bounds of his chart for a bit.



I don’t have a race suit. I agree on the point, but would like to see the data when suits are flying there best.

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WSV #2, where art thou?...



You posted the trailing FlyMaster TAS probe as an example of the need to get out of disturbed air for accurate readings, but FlyMaster also recommends/sells mounts that PG/HG pilots use to fix their TAS sensors somewhat randomly with good results. pic

Could you get similar results/accuracy with a smaller head mounted sensor, rather than the 1m belly vane?
This isn't flying, its falling with style.

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jonmurrell

You posted the trailing FlyMaster TAS probe as an example of the need to get out of disturbed air for accurate readings, but FlyMaster also recommends/sells mounts that PG/HG pilots use to fix their TAS sensors somewhat randomly with good results. pic

Could you get similar results/accuracy with a smaller head mounted sensor, rather than the 1m belly vane?



No, unfortunately. (At least, I don't think so.) If one could point the head with a vane precisely into the split of airstream (where top part of air goes above the jumper, and bottom goes below), then, probably, the length required would be less, maybe 8-10 inches would be enough. But how to determine that point and keep the head at the correct angle? Gibolin (Boris Vonlanthen) used a very short pole, maybe 4 inches, on the helmet, and I think that's just too short, and probably the culprit of incorrect L/D=3.7 measurement he got back in 2009. I cannot find the picture of it he sent me, this video shows what appears to be just the dynamic Pitot tube taped to the helmet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddvmUqdJ_aA

(very interesting video, recommended to everyone! by the way, shows that WST for wingsuit research is just another marketing gimmick - research and testing can be done on the ground by anyone with a boat or car!)

So I can't think of a better place for a vane than the belly. No probs for deployment, easy to put on/take off. When I jumped with that analog (bubble) L/D meter (the pic is above somewhere, page 1 or 2) at the Ranch mounted on the helmet, it just felt weird, like a carrot on a stick, and not so safe (hard opening? can hit the chest; linetwists? can get into those; etc.)

Maybe the mount can be made more compact by using something like scissor lift mechanism:

[inline ScissorLift.png]
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I have not jumped with the longer of these two pitot tube arrangements, but the shorter set up did not provide any useful data. Notywithstanding the fact that the helmet moves in flight, I believe it is simply not in free stream airflow.

Of the longer set up, I believe that it might give useful data, once the helmet is more or less stationary. I thought about trying some sort of gimbal arrangement to keep it pointed into the relative airflow, but I have more recently focused my efforts on placing a pitot assembly alongside the gripper.

I have recently been distracted by an unsuccessful attempt to secure a flying job in China, but do hope to spend some time now revisiting the WingNut project.

[inline IMG_0984.jpeg]
[inline IMG_0981.jpeg]

IMG_0984.jpeg

IMG_0981.jpeg

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Okanagan_Jumper

And I recognize the hazard of impalement from the sharp probe end, which is why I would only jump solo with such a device, and only in the interest of science! :)



Belly is the safest compromise. As can be seen from my video above from Eloy, jumping a long belly moint is not a big deal at all.
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Okanagan_Jumper

I have more recently focused my efforts on placing a pitot assembly alongside the gripper.



I think the wingtip is not a good place for Pitot, because this is where the low pressure from top of the wing and high from bottom, meet, and form the vortex. Maybe ~10 inches forward the flow is undisturbed enough, but then there's hazard of pocking the face with the tube on hard opening.
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In your response to your numbered list:

1. The tunnel will very soon be able to adjust in angle in flight. Last time I was there they were waiting on sliding metal plates they designed for the front of the tunnel. Speed has always been adjustable. The argument of there being an issue of adjustments while in flight is laughably easy to solve. A cable system they already utilize from keeping newer people from flying astray exists. Slight modifications and done.

Yes of course the tunnel is set up for comfortable flying speeds. For this very moment in time it's primarily used for people who want to increase their skills in suits. Give it a few months or a year and performance coaching will be a thing for the niche market.

2. The tunnel is not THAT expensive. There is paying customers who have accumulated 5+ hours of just flight time. That sort of time takes more then a week to fly since it's physically tolling on the body. I've personally spent 6 and a half hours there and plan to spend more. It has been an excellent tool that will make anyone into a better wingsuit pilot.

3. You should really fly in the tunnel instead of presuming. It is exactly the same as in the sky - no difference in sensation.

4. They make rig covers and they also make fake rigs. They are readily available and nothing new.

5. There is no platform because you are actually flying...

6. There is very few areas with any sort of turbulence. Almost all of the tunnel is consistent and flyable space. You'd feel any change since you are in proximity to walls and floor.

7. Both suit technology and pilot progression would be superior to jumping with a rig and analyzing data post jump. It would be more accurate for performance sky competitions but would not progress the sport as you've claimed it would.

8. You are making an assumption as to what has been done in the tunnel. You should visit and talk with them.

The tunnel of course has been used as a business. No one in their right mind would pay millions for a tunnel and solely use it to produce wingsuits that you say should be sold for $200. It would be impossible for them to ever get an ROI.

I believe you are looking at the world with blinders on and all you can see is your ideas. You should open up your mind and see that there are others doing great things. In this case they are doing something that will progress wingsuit flying. You should be supportive of this as your whole argument has been around how stagnant it is.

Don't be the CoW that you so frequently hate on.

It's clear that you put a ton of thought into your work. If you make a commercial true air speed indicator I have no doubt that it will be purchased and used in the sky. I don't believe it will change the world of wingsuiting as you've been gloating about for what feels like the post that never stops. It's been an aggressive marketing campaign. Make it happen and prove the product. Until then - I think everyone is tired of reading updates to this thread.

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Found the pic, but the one not with the vane, but with Pitot attached statically. (and it looks like it's only the dynamic port*, as there's only one flexible tubing is visible)

[inline GibolinPitot.jpg]

This is too close and won't produce useful data.


* Note to anyone who thinks that only dynamic pressure needs to be measured in clean airflow, and static can be taken anywhere near the body or inside the suit - or vice versa: NO. Both need to be measured in clean airflow that hasn't been deflected even by just several degrees and slowed down or speed up even by 1mph. The difference between dynamic and static pressure is already quite small, and even small inaccuracies in measuring it will result in large errors in total airspeed and its break down on horizontal and vertical speeds.

Only vane, only hardcore!
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GibolinPitot.jpg

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BryanCampau

In your response to your numbered list:

1. The tunnel will very soon be able to adjust in angle in flight. Last time I was there they were waiting on sliding metal plates they designed for the front of the tunnel. Speed has always been adjustable. The argument of there being an issue of adjustments while in flight is laughably easy to solve. A cable system they already utilize from keeping newer people from flying astray exists. Slight modifications and done.

Yes of course the tunnel is set up for comfortable flying speeds. For this very moment in time it's primarily used for people who want to increase their skills in suits. Give it a few months or a year and performance coaching will be a thing for the niche market.

2. The tunnel is not THAT expensive. There is paying customers who have accumulated 5+ hours of just flight time. That sort of time takes more then a week to fly since it's physically tolling on the body. I've personally spent 6 and a half hours there and plan to spend more. It has been an excellent tool that will make anyone into a better wingsuit pilot.

3. You should really fly in the tunnel instead of presuming. It is exactly the same as in the sky - no difference in sensation.

4. They make rig covers and they also make fake rigs. They are readily available and nothing new.

5. There is no platform because you are actually flying...

6. There is very few areas with any sort of turbulence. Almost all of the tunnel is consistent and flyable space. You'd feel any change since you are in proximity to walls and floor.

7. Both suit technology and pilot progression would be superior to jumping with a rig and analyzing data post jump. It would be more accurate for performance sky competitions but would not progress the sport as you've claimed it would.

8. You are making an assumption as to what has been done in the tunnel. You should visit and talk with them.

The tunnel of course has been used as a business. No one in their right mind would pay millions for a tunnel and solely use it to produce wingsuits that you say should be sold for $200. It would be impossible for them to ever get an ROI.

I believe you are looking at the world with blinders on and all you can see is your ideas. You should open up your mind and see that there are others doing great things. In this case they are doing something that will progress wingsuit flying. You should be supportive of this as your whole argument has been around how stagnant it is.

Don't be the CoW that you so frequently hate on.

It's clear that you put a ton of thought into your work. If you make a commercial true air speed indicator I have no doubt that it will be purchased and used in the sky. I don't believe it will change the world of wingsuiting as you've been gloating about for what feels like the post that never stops. It's been an aggressive marketing campaign. Make it happen and prove the product. Until then - I think everyone is tired of reading updates to this thread.



WST is - no question - a useful tool for acrobatics and relative falling (aka f1.0cking), men quickly touching each other, holding hands like a couple, etc. - but instead of paying 1200 Euros for one hour of wobbling in front of a noisy turbo fan, a WS BASE jumper can have:

- airfare to Italy or Switzerland, say, from the USA (~400-500 Euro if one shops for it)
- a month-long stay at a cheap campground (5-7 Euro/day for BASE jumpers near Brento, for example)
- self-cooked food for a month (~200 Euros)
- unlimited lift pass at places like Lauterbrunnen, Sputnik, etc.
- 100 or more WS BASE jumps in a month
- incredible views of Italian or Swiss mountains, healthy hikes, fantastic Italian coffee culture, pretty girls, swimming in beautiful turquoise-colored lakes, tons of other jumpers to meet, etc. etc.
- learn much much more about real wingsuit dynamics, like the strategies for: fastest start, longest flight for short-altitude jumps, longest flight for long-altitude jumps, fastest speed, proximity, agility, corkscrews, and even WS BASE acrobatics

All for about the same sum of money that just one hour of staring at a mesh takes (not counting even the airfare to Stockholm and lodging and food in the city!)

No, thanks. I've long given up on making rich people even richer.


PS. #6 - I obviously meant placing a smoke probe in front of the research subject to study the turbulence around it, not the turbulence in the tunnel itself.
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LeeroyJenkins

***


PS. #6 - I obviously meant placing a smoke probe in front of the research subject to study the turbulence around it, not the turbulence in the tunnel itself.



Has been done

Exactly.

Quote

6. Experiments with smoke to determine laminar/turbulent areas, can be done - and this is an advantage over real flight - but as always, it'll be used mostly for making pretty, self-promotion pictures.



[inline TunnelSmoke1.jpg]

[inline TunnelSmoke2.jpg]

[inline TunnelSmoke3.jpg]
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
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iOS only: L/D Magic
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TunnelSmoke1.jpg

TunnelSmoke2.jpg

TunnelSmoke3.jpg

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Yuri, wouldn't the tunnel be the PERFECT place to validate if your vane is actually giving accurate results and where to mount it? Would be great to know how much error it introduces and the stdev of the output. It's really only statistically useful for comparing suits if the difference is greater than error of the measuring device.
BASEline - Wingsuit Flight Computer

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platypii

Yuri, wouldn't the tunnel be the PERFECT place to validate if your vane is actually giving accurate results and where to mount it? Would be great to know how much error it introduces and the stdev of the output. It's really only statistically useful for comparing suits if the difference is greater than error of the measuring device.



Absolutely. Maybe someone will do it, I would be happy to see the results! (Note that for the vane physics to work properly, it must be the angled tunnel, like WST, and pilot must be flying free, not attached.)

But I have nearly zero hope that this will ever happen.
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