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yuri_base

Wingsuit research

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Here's simulated pressure distribution over NACA 0012 airfoil at 30m/s:

[inline SimulatedPressureDistribution30ms.png]

So, it's about 90Pa difference on the trailing edge. We fly faster than 30m/s, let's say, 45m/s, so pressure will be around 200Pa. That's only 2 grams of force per square centimeter. Imagine trailing edge 1m long, 1cm wide, and a 1m steel ruler weighing 200 grams is put on the trailing edge. With firm enough foam and tension applied to the trailing binding tape, 200 grams are nothing to support. So, shouldn't be a problem at all.
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

SimulatedPressureDistribution30ms.png

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yuri_base

If even just one dude in the world builds a wing system with L/D = 3.6 (20% improvement) and opens one of many big WS BASE jumps in the 1500-3000m+ range that are impossible with the current L/D = 3.0 (because of nowhere to land, or reachable LZ being within national park or wilderness - Mount Whitney comes to mind, that's potentially an almost 10000ft jump if one can fly all the way to the valley), that's 0.6km extra for 1km of altitude - then it'll be like a solar eclipse when all birds suddenly stop chirping, same will happen to all naysayers. And it will be silly and comical to not to admit that this system is a great achievement. The Stooges will, of course, not admit it and will try to look unimpressed and keep their cool. This will only make it more comical and make them look like Dumb & Dumber. Same as comical situation these days when they've never used L/D instrumentation available for years now, and they never built a new class of flying gear - half-wingsuit - which some dude was openly doing for years at different DZs, and they saw it and even took pics of it. What can I say... Stooges are such stooges. One can only laugh and shake head.



What is the point of increasing L/D if the increase is not proportionally equal too or greater than the decrease in area?

How do you plan to put tension on the trailing edge if its not attached to the foot of the suit? Right now we can use our feet and arms to tension it. If you remove the foot attachment you won't be able to get the outside as tight.

Quote

we need to revolutionize the wingsuit design and push the limits of performance.



Why? What is the point of that when it's impractical?

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This thread started with you complaining about MWM not doing research which has been shown to be false. They do conduct research they just don't conduct the type of research you want. They also don't conduct that research because they have no interest in making a suit for a couple people.

You want a highly specialized suit that only a few people will ever use because its impractical for skydiving and every day use. You want some high L/D suit without caring about the fact that the decrease is surface area would likely make the suit slower (Vx) and have less glide.

You want a suit with no arm wing which again would be slower (Vx)

You however don't want to put in the time or work to actually do any of the R/D yourself. I know your not good at building things thats clear. Find people that have enough extra time that can help you. Maybe tone down the crazy a bit as to not scare them away.

Again stop criticizing the MWM because they aren't your competition. It's like you complain about them just because you need someone to complain about. You have different goals, you have different visions, and you hav very different markets. It will turn people away from your ideas, again, because what you want and what the average skydiver wants is extremely different.

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LeeroyJenkins

What is the point of increasing L/D if the increase is not proportionally equal too or greater than the decrease in area?



Increase in L/D has value by itself, regardless of what surface area is doing.

Quote

How do you plan to put tension on the trailing edge if its not attached to the foot of the suit? Right now we can use our feet and arms to tension it. If you remove the foot attachment you won't be able to get the outside as tight.



We don't have to extend the trailing edge of the leg wing past feet. Suits also didn't have extended leg wings right from the start. It may come later, in the process of experimentation.

Quote

You want a suit with no arm wing which again would be slower (Vx)



That's not true. Half-WS is very, very fast. In fact, so fast that fully braking (in boxman position) for 5 seconds is not enough, I get hard openings (on my BASE canopy) from residual speed.

WS/2 is faster than WS because arms are not sticking out to the sides, and L/D is naturally closer to optimal 1.4 when there's optimal balance between the component of gravity along the flight path ("gravitational thrust") and the projection of the total speed on the ground, resulting in max Vx possible.
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

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yuri_base

***What is the point of increasing L/D if the increase is not proportionally equal too or greater than the decrease in area?



Increase in L/D has value by itself, regardless of what surface area is doing.

Quote

How do you plan to put tension on the trailing edge if its not attached to the foot of the suit? Right now we can use our feet and arms to tension it. If you remove the foot attachment you won't be able to get the outside as tight.



We don't have to extend the trailing edge of the leg wing past feet. Suits also didn't have extended leg wings right from the start. It may come later, in the process of experimentation.

Quote

You want a suit with no arm wing which again would be slower (Vx)



That's not true. Half-WS is very, very fast. In fact, so fast that fully braking (in boxman position) for 5 seconds is not enough, I get hard openings (on my BASE canopy) from residual speed.

WS/2 is faster than WS because arms are not sticking out to the sides, and L/D is naturally closer to optimal 1.4 when there's optimal balance between the component of gravity along the flight path ("gravitational thrust") and the projection of the total speed on the ground, resulting in max Vx possible.

If Area is decreased more than L/D is increased the wing will generate less lift. That is a fact.

Arm wing tension.


WS/2 Prove it. You have said multiple times that it will be faster. Show me Vx data that back that up. Also show me distance traveled.

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LeeroyJenkins

Find people that have enough extra time that can help you. Maybe tone down the crazy a bit as to not scare them away.



That's what I'm trying to do here. But so far, absolutely no one is interested. Which only proves how deep the CoW swamp is. People have been conditioned over the years by facebooks to which they've migrated from specialized forums like this one to not think and aspire, their brains turned into a one big Like button. All they can do is to react to yet another notification from facegramitter, and OBEY. That's why they're not thinking critically of the current situation in WSI, and they have no enthusiasm to build something better.

The ideas I've already brought to life (such as WS instrumentation, WSE, WS theory, flight analysis and modeling, half-WS, etc.) or am proposing for the joint ("blockchain") effort ('The Machine') have universal value by themselves, the messenger and their personality and method of communication do not. Ideas have their own life. I'm offering ideas, not myself. Strong minds won't be turned off by some rhetoric, they will jump on the ideas and bring them to fruition for everyone's benefit.
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

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LeeroyJenkins

******What is the point of increasing L/D if the increase is not proportionally equal too or greater than the decrease in area?



Increase in L/D has value by itself, regardless of what surface area is doing.

Quote

How do you plan to put tension on the trailing edge if its not attached to the foot of the suit? Right now we can use our feet and arms to tension it. If you remove the foot attachment you won't be able to get the outside as tight.



We don't have to extend the trailing edge of the leg wing past feet. Suits also didn't have extended leg wings right from the start. It may come later, in the process of experimentation.

Quote

You want a suit with no arm wing which again would be slower (Vx)



That's not true. Half-WS is very, very fast. In fact, so fast that fully braking (in boxman position) for 5 seconds is not enough, I get hard openings (on my BASE canopy) from residual speed.

WS/2 is faster than WS because arms are not sticking out to the sides, and L/D is naturally closer to optimal 1.4 when there's optimal balance between the component of gravity along the flight path ("gravitational thrust") and the projection of the total speed on the ground, resulting in max Vx possible.

If Area is decreased more than L/D is increased the wing will generate less lift. That is a fact.

Arm wing tension.


WS/2 Prove it. You have said multiple times that it will be faster. Show me Vx data that back that up. Also show me distance traveled.

Lift in sustained flight is only determined by weight and L/D, per formula

L = W*(L/D)/sqrt(1 + (L/D)^2)

which is absolutely correct, unless one denies Pythagorean theorem.

I'm poor with documenting my adventures. So, I might not have GPS data for WS/2 (in general, I gave up on the idea of using GPS for flight analysis, it's mostly useless, other than windless BASE jumps). I did jump with L/D Vario running on LG G Watch R, in Lodi ca. 2015, in half-V4, and measured L/D as about 1.5-1.6, but 1) L/D Vario doesn't have data recorder yet, 2) I was without camera, 3) I was mostly interested in seeing if I can achieve L/D of about 2.0 in 'Superman' body position (with one or both arms stretched forward). The multiple experiments with Superman showed that either I need bigger leg wing (V-4's is not that big as of modern mattresses), or stronger body (alas, I'm not strong, with beer belly and all) to maintain perfect 'plank' (I was more like a banana).

But no one should doubt that when (the question is not if, but when) WS/2 will be officially introduced by mainstream WSMs with great aplomb and fanfare, it will be touted as a speed demon, the fastest flying human machine, and the graphs with Vx will start popping out on Paralog and Skyderby, then everybody will see. And praise their gods, WSMs, for such ingenuity! While it's been done long time ago, and was not even done secretly. (I've jumped in Eloy, Perris, San Diego, Lodi, etc., with half-Phantom1, half-V2, and half-V4). And is as trivial as finding an old suit and cutting arm wings off completely. But WSMs could have designed wingsuits with fully detachable arm wings, then we get 2-in-1, two flying machines in one!
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

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yuri_base

Lift in sustained flight is only determined by weight and L/D, per formula

L = W*(L/D)/sqrt(1 + (L/D)^2)



By the way, this is a monotonic function of L/D, so that the higher L/D, the higher the lift. So, if higher L/D is achieved with a smaller suit/system, this smaller suit will have more lift than a big mattress! Paradoxical, but absolutely true.
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

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yuri_base

***Lift in sustained flight is only determined by weight and L/D, per formula

L = W*(L/D)/sqrt(1 + (L/D)^2)



By the way, this is a monotonic function of L/D, so that the higher L/D, the higher the lift. So, if higher L/D is achieved with a smaller suit/system, this smaller suit will have more lift than a big mattress! Paradoxical, but absolutely true.

Ahhh, when you say L/D you aren't actually talking about the airfoil shape lift coefficient. You're talking about experimental overall L/D. Right?

Find a local university with an mechanical or aerospace engineering program. This sounds like it could be a good Sr. Project or masters thesis.

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LeeroyJenkins

******Lift in sustained flight is only determined by weight and L/D, per formula

L = W*(L/D)/sqrt(1 + (L/D)^2)



By the way, this is a monotonic function of L/D, so that the higher L/D, the higher the lift. So, if higher L/D is achieved with a smaller suit/system, this smaller suit will have more lift than a big mattress! Paradoxical, but absolutely true.

Ahhh, when you say L/D you aren't actually talking about the airfoil shape lift coefficient. You're talking about experimental overall L/D. Right?

Yep.

Quote

Find a local university with an mechanical or aerospace engineering program. This sounds like it could be a good Sr. Project or masters thesis.



No, not interested, have absolutely no need in this. It's just a way to slow thing down. One doesn't need to do years of schooling and tens, hundreds of thousands of $$$ to cut some foam wings. I've already spent way too much of my life in academia.
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

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yuri_base

*********Lift in sustained flight is only determined by weight and L/D, per formula

L = W*(L/D)/sqrt(1 + (L/D)^2)



By the way, this is a monotonic function of L/D, so that the higher L/D, the higher the lift. So, if higher L/D is achieved with a smaller suit/system, this smaller suit will have more lift than a big mattress! Paradoxical, but absolutely true.

Ahhh, when you say L/D you aren't actually talking about the airfoil shape lift coefficient. You're talking about experimental overall L/D. Right?

Yep.

Quote

Find a local university with an mechanical or aerospace engineering program. This sounds like it could be a good Sr. Project or masters thesis.



No, not interested, have absolutely no need in this. It's just a way to slow thing down. One doesn't need to do years of schooling and tens, hundreds of thousands of $$$ to cut some foam wings. I've already spent way too much of my life in academia.

Sr. Projects normally cover 1 semester.

You want help but you don't want that help. You sure want a lot of things but don't want to do what is needed to achieve them. Starting to seem like you just want to hear yourself talk without taking action.

What country ore you in?

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Consolidating old knowledge - how to subtract wind:

How to measure true L/D on a balloon jump

How to calculate true airspeed on a plane jump

Does anyone even try to subtract wind from their GPS data?



(note that in those prehistoric times before WSE, I myself oftentimes confused GR and L/D, a common confusion that most jumpers have even today)
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

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yuri_base

Consolidating old knowledge - how to subtract wind:

How to measure true L/D on a balloon jump

How to calculate true airspeed on a plane jump

Does anyone even try to subtract wind from their GPS data?



(note that in those prehistoric times before WSE, I myself oftentimes confused GR and L/D, a common confusion that most jumpers have even today)



Don't mislead people, steady state means GR and L/D are equal.

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>>> steady state means GR and L/D are equal <<<

Only when GR is relative to air, not ground. Ground GR (GGR) measured with any GPS is useless other than on windless BASE jumps.

Also, air-GR (AGR) and L/D are equal not only in steady state; they are equal each time Vx has an extremum (minimum, maximum, or inflection point with zero derivative), even if only for a moment, and Vy can be arbitrarily changing! This is not a steady state, yet L/D = AGR in these points.

Also, even in non-steady state, AGR is actually ~1% (depends on Vy) higher than L/D, because of increasing density going down, as the suit enters more dense layers of air coming with higher speed for these layers, from less dense layers. This can easily be seen in Wingsuit Studio:

[inline GRHigherThanLDInSustainedFlight.png]
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

GRHigherThanLDInSustainedFlight.png

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yuri_base

>>> steady state means GR and L/D are equal <<<

Only when GR is relative to air, not ground. Ground GR (GGR) measured with any GPS is useless other than on windless BASE jumps.

Also, air-GR (AGR) and L/D are equal not only in steady state; they are equal each time Vx has an extremum (minimum, maximum, or inflection point with zero derivative), even if only for a moment, and Vy can be arbitrarily changing! This is not a steady state, yet L/D = AGR in these points.

Also, even in non-steady state, AGR is actually ~1% (depends on Vy) higher than L/D, because of increasing density going down, as the suit enters more dense layers of air coming with higher speed for these layers, from less dense layers. This can easily be seen in Wingsuit Studio:



There ya go, honestly is nice.

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Cool application of WSE: Roll Angle from GPS data!

Basically, by finding the angle of the Lift vector relative to flight path, you can compute the roll angle of the suit.

Here's an example of pitch, roll, and yaw reconstructed from FlySight data:

This shows initial steep exit from a cliff, followed by leveling out, a slight right turn, a corkscrew (!), then a long commute before deploying.

Note that the visualization assume AoA = 0. Credit to Hartman for the roll angle calc, and DFR for the corkscrew line.
BASEline - Wingsuit Flight Computer

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platypii

Cool application of WSE: Roll Angle from GPS data!

Basically, by finding the angle of the Lift vector relative to flight path, you can compute the roll angle of the suit.

Here's an example of pitch, roll, and yaw reconstructed from FlySight data:
[.image]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ReadyMatureGilamonster-size_restricted.gif[/image]
This shows initial steep exit from a cliff, followed by leveling out, a slight right turn, a corkscrew (!), then a long commute before deploying.

Note that the visualization assume AoA = 0. Credit to Hartman for the roll angle calc, and DFR for the corkscrew line.



That. is. so. cool! Kudos! And this is just the beginning... I'm not kidding when saying that WSE are like Pandora box!
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

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>>> Also, even in non-steady state, AGR is actually ~1% (depends on Vy) higher than L/D, because of increasing density going down <<<

Correction: "Also, even in steady state".
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

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The blue thing looks like a retractable conical vane, that automatically extends on exit and retracts into the helmet before deployment. That would be totally magical. B|
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

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