0
Fall0ut

Rafale vs. Freak2 ?

Recommended Posts

I should have my Rafale in the near future. Upgrading from a Freak 1, for what it’s worth.

I can let you know that comparison after I get some jumps on it. My hope is that the Rafale will provide more power in the BASE environment while still being fun, like the Freak, in the sky.
Apex BASE
#1816

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The rafale is a big step up in comparison. Closer to an acrobatic Alpine in range.
Forward speed / flare are massive. I did 42 jumps in the freak2 for a movie shoot, and these suits are worlds apart. Agility/Precission on the rafale is to me unique for a suit that size. Not the usual ‘sloppy’ handling.

Video - https://youtu.be/x72JfGXLTn8
Video shows first 5 jumps in the suit only.

Attached a picture of a freak2 overlayed on a rafale made for identical size person. Shows the different trim quite well. Rafale is a missile. Cant wait to do XRW in it, and carve/flip over the canopy. The range is stellar..

Best thing to me was being able to pull any way i like. Normal, flare, collapsed wing. Unhindered. Without effort. My last 3000 out of 5000 ws jumps no reserve, then 2 due to pull issues on the F2. I prefer seeing design boost agility and glide while not hindering basic safety..Rafale for dayz...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

3BE333C8-06FF-4F88-9B60-57E64C692665.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mccordia

My last 3000 out of 5000 ws jumps no reserve, then 2 due to pull issues on the F2. I prefer seeing design boost agility and glide while not hindering basic safety..Rafale for dayz...



This post was quite believable until this sentence...

F2 pull is ridiculously easy, unless you dive like a mofo charging towards the ground. Hard for me to believe that somebody with 5000 WS jumps would have any problems with pull.

I know you need to do marketing for PF, but this is some serious fairy-tale stuff, which makes me question if there's any bit of truth in your whole post :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dunno about #BASE 349, but if the F2 that I and many others fly reguarly is very safe in the skydiving environment - also being one of the most sold in this category. Not being a BASE jumper myself, can you explain me why this particular suit has contributed to the #349 BASE fatality? I understand that there has been one in a C-Race suit, where the jumper was using less than optimal rig (was very short on him) and also using the stiff race leading edge foam that makes pulling harder, well as far as I understand - again not being part of the BASE community......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BFL349 no-pulled flying a Freak2 and WS-specific container. He was pretty experienced but reportedly had mentioned having problems at pull time with that suit before as well.

I own big PF and big squirrel suits. The internal pressure, mobility, reach, and pull are all definitely different between them. If you're accustomed to one then it's easy to find problems when switching to another. Every wingsuit can pose potential problems, so saying something like, "I think this suit's pull is the easiest/safest and since you find it hard you're an idiot/liar" is fairly ignorant IMHO.
This isn't flying, its falling with style.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sounds legit. All I can say is that Squirrel HAS made some suits where the pull is quite "technical", and thus you can say that those suits where not build with safety as first priority in mind. It surprises me that people would say that regarding the F2 though - pull is absolutely easy and internal pressure is nothing like the Race suits

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'll +1 the above sentiments. The Squirrel race suits apparently (haven't flown them) and even the Aura 3 have high internal pressure leading to a more complicated deployment initiation. The Freak 2 and down in the Squirrel range not so much compared to suits of similar sizes. Unless the suit is too tight or you are wearing a heavy layer of winter clothing and/or restricting leg movement by stashing hiking poles in the leg wing etc throwing the PC shouldn't be an issue. All larger modern wingsuits - any suit where flaring is necessary - require much more complicated deployment techniques than their forebears though, and deployment can be an issue on any of them. It's not to be underestimated. The Freak 2 in my experience is a relatively problem free design.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks for the picture Jarno! Looks like the Rafale leg stance is a lot wider? And doesn’t the longer tail and steeper trim make it more difficult to fly with a canopy?
And what sort of pull issues did you experience on the Freak2 with your huge amount of experience on all kinds of suits, including sketchy prototypes?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jonmurrell

***F2 pull is ridiculously easy



Maybe for you. BFL #349 (among others) would probably disagree.

If F2 is difficult, then your pull technique is so poor, it licks other people's fingers in KFC.

And in all seriousness - if you have any problems with it, then you clearily shoudn't be flying anything bigger than Phantom and gain more experiece.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you had 2 reserve rides in ~40 jumps in a freak, I’d be seriously worried about my pull technique. Did it not fit well? Never had issues with both PF and Squirrel so not sure what you did. Le pull is easy in both. Now the onesie pull seems to be the future and my favorite.

Regarding no pulls in the freak, there have been several in PF suits too. This is a useless discussion just as the recent reserve canopy manufacturer discussion in my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I’ve got ~1,000 WS jumps, most on PF with a bit of squirrel. Main suit is a Strix. I recently tested a Freak2 and the pull, while not crazy hard, is nowhere as easy as my Strix for being so similar in surface area.

If I owned one I wouldn’t really have any doubts about whether I could deploy safely, but I also don’t think it’s realistic to call the pull “easy”. Easy compared the Aura 1 I had, but it took a noticeably more determined effort than a Strix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm curious as to peoples thoughts about what seems to be the squirrel design ethos.

More efficient planform to reduce overall wing surface area while maintaining or improving overall performance.

A smaller more manageable surface area that performs as well seems like a great step toward safety...

Is the drawback the internal pressure? Is the principle engineering difference between say the Rafale and the F2 the rigidity of the wing (roughly equal performance but different wing sizes)?

I've only flown an ATC from squirrel and have flown a ton of PF designs (currently on a strix and Alpine 2).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
alygator

Quote

A smaller more manageable surface area that performs as well seems like a great step toward safety...


How is it better for safety if these smaller suits have harder pulls than "bigger" due to higher internal pressure?



haven't flown current pf suits so I don't know how much pressure they have but I have a freak 2 and a calugo 3 and don't have a problem with the pull on either suit or any issue for that matter pull seems super easy
BASE 1519

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
freedom1

I'm curious as to peoples thoughts about what seems to be the squirrel design ethos.



Different manufacturers will always have different design priorities and philosophies, and then proclaim that their unique balance of design elements has generated the best overall product. In the end it's all subjective and there is no "best wingsuit." There are only "different wingsuits" that make different compromises to achieve (what the manufacturer believes to be) the best overall balance of performance.

The best suit for person A will not always be, nor will it ever always be, the best suit for persons B-Z.

When Squirrel first hit the scene they pushed back against stiff leading edges, with toggle access being paramount for safety. Over time they have become less rigid (pun!) on this point and moved toward the performance benefits of stiffer leading edges. Thus the narrative evolved from "toggle access" to "riser control." I think they have tried to marry these two narratives with removable foam and variable levels of leading edge stiffness which is a good idea.

That said I own a Freak and cannot access my toggles without unzipping. I have no problem with this, at all. For me riser access is adequate and worth the benefits of a more solid leading edge. I also own two different PF suits and have found the riser access on these suits to be similar to my Freak even with their stiffer PF leading edges.

On the leading edge I think the design philosophies between PF and Squirrel are converging.

I think the biggest difference in design styles is fit. Squirrel suits seem to pressurize more and fit relatively loosely...especially through the torso. The PF is philosophy is that a tighter fit allows for more precise inputs and control. One could argue (I think fairly) that precision is in and of itself a safety feature.

At the end of the day, all of the modern suits are really good. I don't think you can go wrong with anything from the major manufacturers.
Apex BASE
#1816

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
a suit from a manufactorer, flies in a specific way, specific for that suit. This is because the designers and testpilots made sure that their preferences is felt, when *one fly that suit. Many parameters... Not only leading edge, the whole wingprofile(s), design of booties, overall balance, air inlets, air locks, etc. Even the crossports inside makes a huge difference, its a science in itself. PF could make a suit that flies like a Squirrel, if they wanted to. But they don't. Same goes otherway around. On topic, Rafale is a bigger suit than the F2, so one would assume more glide from that. But it is true that Squirrel wants area as small as possible on any suit; less is more is a goood way of describing it. I also see Tony building mega huge suits, for backflying. Interesting trend..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jonmurrell

BFL349 no-pulled flying a Freak2 and WS-specific container. He was pretty experienced but reportedly had mentioned having problems at pull time with that suit before as well.

I own big PF and big squirrel suits. The internal pressure, mobility, reach, and pull are all definitely different between them. If you're accustomed to one then it's easy to find problems when switching to another. Every wingsuit can pose potential problems, so saying something like, "I think this suit's pull is the easiest/safest and since you find it hard you're an idiot/liar" is fairly ignorant IMHO.



Stay focused people! Dear Jon, this is the SKYDIVING forum, please see the BASE thread about people who made bad decisions.

On THIS topic, you wish to compare apples to marshmallows. Two very different suits... I do however find ALOT of useful info about the two leading makers of wingsuits and what separates them apart...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
timski


On THIS topic, you wish to compare apples to marshmallows. Two very different suits...



"Two very different suits" ? I would agree if the question had been to compare a Phantom to an Aura or Hunter.

But Freak2 and Rafale are both big (not huge) suits with Acro capabilities, similar shape, tailwing length and backfly inlets. The Rafale is a tiny bit bigger, but I would disagree calling them "very different".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fall0ut

***
On THIS topic, you wish to compare apples to marshmallows. Two very different suits...



"Two very different suits" ? I would agree if the question had been to compare a Phantom to an Aura or Hunter.

But Freak2 and Rafale are both big (not huge) suits with Acro capabilities, similar shape, tailwing length and backfly inlets. The Rafale is a tiny bit bigger, but I would disagree calling them "very different".

From PF website: "A unique new model, exploring new ground with large surface wingsuit acrobatics."

So Rafale is a "new concept" that is a large surface acro suit. Definately larger than the F2, so they are not in same class. Rafale is more in class with the JNite backflying thing from Tony. Interesting developments going on...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
birdynamnam

Interesting developments going on...



There hasn't been any "interesting developments" in wingsuits in about a decade. In about 15 years, L/D increased only by 20% (from 2.5 of V-4 back in 2004 to 3.0 of mattresses; and it's been stuck at 3.0 flat for years now). The prevailing planform is pretty much the same T-design of about 10 years ago. L/D improved mostly due to trivially increased surface area. Dramatic improvement in flare is mostly an automatic consequence of this modest improvement in L/D (flare - effective conversion of kinetic energy into potential energy - is very sensitive to L/D increase). Increased internal pressure is nice for ease of flying, but has virtually no effect on aerodynamics, as long as it's enough to shape the wing (and it was enough 15 years ago in "soft" suits).

The multi-million $$$ wingsuit industry is as stagnant as some swamp in Florida. The only thing that is skyrocketing is the marketing. Any new minuscule iteration is presented as a revolutionary breakthrough. "Buy buy buy... we want your $$$... $2K at a time."
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account. It's free!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
0