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mariobat

Container WS friendly

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Well the Aurora has been discussed here, the consensus seemed to be, some improvement for performance speed comps, otherwise nothing to write home about. Link

If you're just talking "fun jumper" they pretty much all work well. Some mods that seem to be pretty well agreed upon as "beneficial" are 9-11ft bridle, stowless/semi-stowless bag, and open ("dynamic") corners for the main tray. Other than that, just FF friendly, and a RSL with a MARD/SkyHook etc if you swing that way.

I've wingsuited a Mirage, Vector3, and even a Student Vector, no complaints related to WS specifically on any of them. I've seen just about everything else out there wingsuited with no WS specific complaints.

The only rig related complaint I really remember anyone making was a freefly pud on a tiny overstuffed rig and giant suit combo, jumper said it was hard to get a good grip on the pud. (Oh, and getting a finger stuck in a homemade PVC handle).

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I don't think there is a "best". Just like with all container threads, it's a personal preference. If you want to optimize for wingsuiting you can get dynamic corners, a semi stowless D bag and Squirrel Skysnatch Pilot chute.

If you want to further optimize your setup go for a low bulk/low pack volume main like epicene, horizon or pilot 7 which would then reduce container size.

Personally, I fly an Aerodyne Icon V with dynamic corners, semi stowless bag, squirrel skysnatch and a 190 safire 3. It might not be the best but it works for me now. Wingsuits I fly the Swift 3 and moving up to an ATC soon to put it in perspective.

It probably helps to know why you are looking for the "best" . The above options will help with deployments. After that its really the suit and the pilot :)

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kat00

I don't think there is a "best". Just like with all container threads, it's a personal preference. If you want to optimize for wingsuiting you can get dynamic corners, a semi stowless D bag and Squirrel Skysnatch Pilot chute.



Agree with all of the above except the SkySnatch. I get the "deploy as fast a possible" in the BASE environment, but it doesn't make as much sense in the sky. I wouldn't characterize the SkySnatch as "bad" but it is "unnecessary" and has a couple drawbacks.

1- It is $200, basically double the price of most other kill-line PCs, and 3x the price of the cheapo ones.

2- Harder on gear, faster/harder extraction = more force being transmitted into everything from the PCA to the risers, it might even mean less life in the PC's ZP itself. Fine for BASE because 100ft might be life vs. death, but that isn't the case in the sky unless you're already in a pickle (should probably go straight to reserve) or you do something stupid (pulling dirty low or jump a huge suit with a 6' bridle).

3- It makes some assumptions that a faster/harder extraction is more stable, in a free packed BASE main with a tail pocket and a BASE container that basically completely comes apart on deployment (compared to a sky container) ok sure, that might be true. But when extracting a d-bag with line stows (even semi-stowless) from a container that is more restrictive, maybe not, fast and violent might mean more chaotic and more force thrown into a rotation of the bag. I do appreciate the wind tunnel stuff and comparison vids SQ made, but they are non-empirical/leave out a ton of variables and are relatively anecdotal. I've also seen plenty of back facing vid (mine included) with significant PC oscillation and a completely straight extraction with completely symmetrical inflation, PC oscillation does not = unstable extraction with a main that is in a d-bag. Case in point, CRW and swoopers haven't jumped on it (figuratively speaking), and their deployments are arguably less stable / more nuanced than WS ones, if it was a significant improvement, they would have switched over.

4- It packs big, again not a problem with BASE BOC's but sky BOC's are a good bit tighter. And there are no options for handles other than their cf tube and no tuck tab if you're into those.

Again, it's not a bad thing, just unnecessary in the sky.

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Skysnatch is fairly priced Its a complete set, bridle link pc. I use itand it works perfect Extraction force is not harder. Packvoll is not larger. Not sure why you write this.. Its merrit is stability- put it out in the wind and it stays out there and doesnt wouble at all. Thats basically it.

Icon's "long" are great for WS. I have the Aurora, takes some getting used to :) But eventually I liked it

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OldGregg


Agree with all of the above except the SkySnatch. I get the "deploy as fast a possible" in the BASE environment, but it doesn't make as much sense in the sky. I wouldn't characterize the SkySnatch as "bad" but it is "unnecessary" and has a couple drawbacks.



I love my SkySnatch. I don't have issues with pack volume of it compared to my original 28 inch conventional pilot chute that came with the rig. You can definitely feel the power it has if you do a snap test on the ground. In the air, it is a bit of piece of mind and clean extraction.

It's just a recommendation if you are looking for a good setup. It's one minor piece but I notice more wingsuiters using them than not using them. I think a good setup should include one. The price may be steep but this sport is pretty costly and the 200 for piece of mind is well worth it to me.

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I think you're confusing the "Snatch" with the "SkySnatch" because the SkySnatch is either 26" or 30" which is well in line with most "Wingsuit extended bridle and PC" kits. The SkySnatch's selling point is it's stability because of it's 3D shape, not stronger snatch force. Using a "Snatch" (sized 32"-48" with no kill-line) would not be recommended for skydiving as it would "deploy too quickly" and pack too large stretching out your BOC. I don't see the problem with the handle as that type of handle is nice for wingsuiting and the system is set up as wingsuit specific to of course it isn't catering to FF with a tuck tab.
Whats the point of living if you aren't doing what you love?

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mariobat

Hi all!
Excluding Aurora container, what is (and why) in your experience the best container for WS jumps?

Safe jumps to all!!!



Too echo some other birdmen:

Pretty much any container that has the corners taken out is OK. Yes you need a nine foot bridle. If you fly a camera fly it backwards to see your opening and body position during the openings...(get coaching) On that note, YOU control YOUR openings with a WS. YOU have much to learn as this wingsuiting life is a whole new animal. The two biggest things for me early on was stability during deployment and continuing to fly thru the entire opening without looking up! "Flying" the suit is pretty basic, mastering the deployment takes time/practice.

Enjoy the ride ;)

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A few manufacturers have "long" versions of standard rigs and a lot of wingsuiters including myself prefer those. More natural to reach back and not have to bend the elbow much and fight the wing.

I know Aerodyne has a long version, I am sure UPT does and I suspect others do.

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Pretty much all modern containers work.

Nine foot bridles are important, longer containers are nice, docile 9 cell canopies work well and if you're a WS-only jumper then 7 cells have their advantages.

As for pilot chutes, you could tie a plastic grocery bag to the end of your bridle and the canopy would come out. An overly heavy hackey is undesirable, but other than that you're good to go. I personally like to tape over the open holes of the PVC designs to prevent finger stick-age, but if you're comfortable with a certain (not super heavy) PC handle then roll with it.
Apex BASE
#1816

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Thanks to all for share yours opinion, I'm using a G4 for WS jumps since 2011 (open corners, 9ft bridle etc, etc), just to know
if in the mint time new features are available!
It seems that the only one new feature is the "long version" containers!

Thanks again to all!!!

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Bluhdow

As for pilot chutes, you could tie a plastic grocery bag to the end of your bridle and the canopy would come out.



That's terrible advice, or a terrible joke mixed in with what is otherwise good advice. The PC starts the deployment sequence and the quality of it indeed impacts what kind of opening you are going to get. Replacing a worn PC or kill line is an often overlooked item that can make a big difference.

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DanielRistow

Well in that case all your points made zero sense as the advantage of the SkySnatch (and Snatch compared to other BASE PCs) is its stability due to its 3D shape, nothing to do with pulling way harder that others of the same size. :P



The "stability" is due to an apex vent, or in the case of the SkySnatch a "central" vent (e.g. every other apex vented PC), the shape is designed to create more drag more quickly with a given OD "snatch force." As a BASE jumper I would hope you would understand this. Call SQ, ask them, and then when they explain that to you, you can apologize to me for wasting my time.

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Stablility and more consistent pull because it stays inflated evenly due to the 3D shape. I’ve got plenty of rear footage of VENTED Adrenaline and Apex PC’s that are hooked up symmetrically and oscillate like crazy and inflate and deflate as they pull. And to settle up your point I’ll post a quote off the Squirrel website:

***The SkySNATCH is not necessarily more or less powerful than other PCs of similar size. The main difference is stability. For example, if you find that your 30" PC is functioning well for wingsuit use currently, then a 30" SkySNATCH will work similarly depending on the design factors specific to your current PC. If you are using an older 0-3fcm (F-111) PC for skydiving currently and are happy with the extraction force it is providing, then you may need to choose a smaller size of SkySNATCH.
Whats the point of living if you aren't doing what you love?

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repcool

the quality of it indeed impacts what kind of opening you are going to get.



Eh...kind of. I would say that the PC is one of the smallest contributors to the quality of your opening. Like...probably dead last after a whole lot of other way more important factors like body position, airspeed, canopy selection, bridle length...etc.

All things being equal, it might matter a little. But for the vast majority of people as long as your PC is in good condition and lacking an overly heavy handle it will work just fine. Most people would be better served taking that $200 and paying a coach to help them with their deployment technique for a day.
Apex BASE
#1816

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mariobat

Hi all!
Excluding Aurora container, what is (and why) in your experience the best container for WS jumps?

Safe jumps to all!!!



Hi Mario,

Here is my $.02

A good container for WS is long and doesn't stick off your back too far. All container manufacturers make better and worse models, so ask what the dimensions of the container are before purchasing. My infinity works pretty well. It's something like 21-22" long and 4.25" high. My wife's vector works pretty well as well. It's something like ~20" long and 3.5" high. A friend of mine got a different size vector that doesn't work very well. It's 16" long. He has a hard time pulling.

In general, Infinities tend to be longer. Vectors depends on the model (check their size chart). Mirages, Javelins and Wings tend to be short and chubby and work a bit less well. Like I said, figure out what sizes of canopies you want, and check with manufacturers about container sizes.

Icon's "long" version of containers are popular as of late. I'm not a fan though - people I know that got them complain they sag off their back when backflying. I don't have that issue with my infinity...

A semi-stowless D-bag in my experience makes a very substantial difference with openings. Definitely get whichever brand you decide to go with.

Skysnatch makes your deployments more stable (watch rear-facing video). It actually has less "snatch" force than a regular PC. At least in the BASE version. Worthwhile, but I did fine without it. Then again, Infinity let me get it instead of their regular PC and discounted me the cost of the PC. That was pretty sweet.

Probably avoid skyhook. Jury's still out about whether it's a good idea with wingsuits as far as I'm concerned. It could mess with AAD deployments. My wife's vector doesn't have it for that reason.

WS-specific canopy is mostly not necessary. But for some people it is. If you're only beginning no need to sell your Sabre2 just yet...

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Bluhdow

***the quality of it indeed impacts what kind of opening you are going to get.



Eh...kind of. I would say that the PC is one of the smallest contributors to the quality of your opening. Like...probably dead last after a whole lot of other way more important factors like body position, airspeed, canopy selection, bridle length...etc.

All things being equal, it might matter a little. But for the vast majority of people as long as your PC is in good condition and lacking an overly heavy handle it will work just fine. Most people would be better served taking that $200 and paying a coach to help them with their deployment technique for a day.

Your initial advice recommend “grocery bag” and not “PC in good condition”. I agree with what you amended it too.

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OldGregg

***I don't think there is a "best". Just like with all container threads, it's a personal preference. If you want to optimize for wingsuiting you can get dynamic corners, a semi stowless D bag and Squirrel Skysnatch Pilot chute.



Agree with all of the above except the SkySnatch. I get the "deploy as fast a possible" in the BASE environment, but it doesn't make as much sense in the sky. I wouldn't characterize the SkySnatch as "bad" but it is "unnecessary" and has a couple drawbacks.

1- It is $200, basically double the price of most other kill-line PCs, and 3x the price of the cheapo ones.

2- Harder on gear, faster/harder extraction = more force being transmitted into everything from the PCA to the risers, it might even mean less life in the PC's ZP itself. Fine for BASE because 100ft might be life vs. death, but that isn't the case in the sky unless you're already in a pickle (should probably go straight to reserve) or you do something stupid (pulling dirty low or jump a huge suit with a 6' bridle).

3- It makes some assumptions that a faster/harder extraction is more stable, in a free packed BASE main with a tail pocket and a BASE container that basically completely comes apart on deployment (compared to a sky container) ok sure, that might be true. But when extracting a d-bag with line stows (even semi-stowless) from a container that is more restrictive, maybe not, fast and violent might mean more chaotic and more force thrown into a rotation of the bag. I do appreciate the wind tunnel stuff and comparison vids SQ made, but they are non-empirical/leave out a ton of variables and are relatively anecdotal. I've also seen plenty of back facing vid (mine included) with significant PC oscillation and a completely straight extraction with completely symmetrical inflation, PC oscillation does not = unstable extraction with a main that is in a d-bag. Case in point, CRW and swoopers haven't jumped on it (figuratively speaking), and their deployments are arguably less stable / more nuanced than WS ones, if it was a significant improvement, they would have switched over.

4- It packs big, again not a problem with BASE BOC's but sky BOC's are a good bit tighter. And there are no options for handles other than their cf tube and no tuck tab if you're into those.

Again, it's not a bad thing, just unnecessary in the sky.

You shouldn't be getting harder openings. I have the 30" on my 7 cell 150 and I get great openings every time. I'm sure I am not the only one that has rear facing footage that can compare an old PC to a skysnatch. The skysnatch is cleaner.

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