0
Sabrekakkonen

Simple crw with sabre 2

Recommended Posts

Hi, i am interested in doing some crw, but i really dont have money to buy another parachute(crw).
I am planning:
-sitting on canopy nose
-standing on canopy top skin
-hit firiends endcell with my body side
If flying carefully, is it safe enough?

My canopy is microlined sabre2 150 loaded 1.2
At least i should wear thick pants to ensure lines are not injuring me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm not a CRW guy, but I suspect the answer is no. But the reason I'm posting is similar to yours. At my home DZ we have people doing microline CRW. I also did some Stiletto CRW 20 years ago, but stopped when I cut my hand on someone's lines. My wife has decided to try some CRW, so I relined an RW Triathlon with Dacron for her. In the past some of my friends have docked on her Pilot with Sabre type canopies. She did not know better. I told my friend that we were going to be going out back for a "discussion" with fists if he ever did that again. I just keep thinking about the feeling of that microline cutting into my skin. That was enough to convince me.

But I really want to hear what people who really know think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Do yourself a favor and look around for an old Triathlon with ragged out lines. They can be had for just a few hundred dollars, which is a whole lot cheaper than the ER bill when your arm or leg gets sliced to the bone in a wrap with microline. Aerodyne will either reline it with a Hybrid Dacron line set or sell you the line set for your rigger to do it. If it is a standard Triathlon, and not a Hybrid, you can get a 5 foot bridle, put a number 8 grommet in your d-bag to act as a kill cone for your pilot chute and you are good to go for doing casual type CRW. However, unless the people you are jumping with also have Dacron lines, you are still chancing it. After all, it will probably be their lines that are wrapped around you, not yours. Hopefully you have one person in the group that knows what they are doing, but I'm guessing not, or they would have told you the same thing about using microlined canopies for CRW.

Get some appropriate canopies and have fun. CRW is great! Also look at attending one of the Raw Dogs CRW camps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Microline will slice you to the bone like cutting through cheese with a wire.

Trailing pilot chutes are a major entanglement hazard that can kill.

Wraps and entanglements are a big fucking deal if you're not trained and haven't had your equipment (rig, clothing choices, etc) reviewed by someone who understands few.

The cool thing about CRW is you can't do it alone... So come make friends, get some coaching, and likely borrow gear for a while. It's pretty normal for CRW dawg to loan out canopies, rigs, etc, to enable others to jump.

Look up the RawDawgs and come play!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Where are you located? The CRW community is great about educating newbies and even loaning gear.

Depending on where you live, you might not be far from people who can train you in proper techniques and safety.

Not everyone's listed but here's a good place to look for people who are willing to teach.

https://www.rawdogscrw.com/find-a-coach-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So, I'm thinking you can still learn a lot using your Sabre deuce without suffering all the problems of the microline and trailing pilot chute.

Do tons of proxy flying! Learn to turn and get near another canopy without hitting it or being a mile away. Adjust the rate of your turn and altitude so that you end up next to and on the same level without having to sashay a thousand times or sit in rear risers for an hour.

Learn what affects front risers, rear risers, toggles, combinations of the front ant toggles have, feel the body burble, feel the canopy burble, and how changing your body position affects your canopy. Having another canopy next to you gives you real feedback as to what is happening.

You don't need to dock to learn how to fly well, in fact it is harder to proxy fly than dock. CF is not about slamming docks together but flying in very close proximity so that a line can be kicked into with as minimal affect on the formation and the docker as possible.

Yeah, you and your friend can pick up a triathlon or similar canopy super cheap (although the cost of new risers, toggles, maybe a deployment bag and new pilot chute has to be factored in) and have some fun. But in the meantime you can be laying the base of skills you will need to me a good canopy flyer with the equipment you have.

Save the microline CF for crazy experts, while you are learning you should stick to Dacron and good socks.

top
Jump more, post less!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sabrekakkonen

Hi, i am interested in doing some crw, but i really dont have money to buy another parachute(crw).
I am planning:
-sitting on canopy nose
-standing on canopy top skin
-hit firiends endcell with my body side
If flying carefully, is it safe enough?

My canopy is microlined sabre2 150 loaded 1.2
At least i should wear thick pants to ensure lines are not injuring me.



It sounds as though this is a new canopy. Along with the danger of microcline, CReW can be hard on a canopy. Getting a used canopy for CReW might actually save you money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
johnmatrix

CRW is totally awesome, but I think if you want to do it you should get the appropriate gear (and more importantly - training).



I get goose bumps just thinking about that noise a canopy makes as it zips up the lines behind you. Nothing, for me at least, ever compared with CReW for great skydiving.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What canopy does your buddy have? And does he have any CRW experience? Do either of you have CRW emergency procedure training?

"sitting on canopy nose and hit friends end cell with my body side"- has you on top as the pilot. In other words- you are the one getting docked on.

This is a bad idea for two reasons-

1- if your buddy has no CRW experience he does not know how to line up to dock properly or safely abort and try again from a bad approach.

2- if you don't have any CRW piloting experience you don't know what a good approach looks like and how to dodge when your buddy comes screaming in at you from a bad angle.

Add micro lines to the mix and it goes from bad to worse when you wrap, even if you're wearing thick pants.

As for "standing on canopy top skin"- you are in a good position to get "center punched". Wrapped because the guy below can't see you, hits brakes or rears and rises up into you.

I highly suggest finding a coach or CRW camp and getting proper instruction. It's the best and safest way to try CRW. If you get hooked you can worry about a CRW canopy later.

If you choose to ignore this and rely on "flying carefully and safe enough" please don't post the carnage video and give CRW a bad name.
diamonds are a dawgs best friend

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sabrekakkonen

Hi, i am interested in doing some crw, but i really dont have money to buy another parachute(crw).
I am planning:
-sitting on canopy nose
-standing on canopy top skin
-hit firiends endcell with my body side
If flying carefully, is it safe enough?

My canopy is microlined sabre2 150 loaded 1.2
At least i should wear thick pants to ensure lines are not injuring me.



Microline slices through most material very quickly. As a seasoned CRW dog I did a dive with other experienced dogs with a canopy lined with microline. No wraps or anything just zipped up the line when some tension on the formation. Microline ripped through 2 pairs of socks and ended up with deep cuts on both ankles. Never ever again.....

Sabre 2 is also not an ideal canopy for flying with more traditional CRW canopies. CRW is hard on canopies - you will see that CRW canopies have a reinforced nose and retracting pilot chute to avoid entanglements.

The fact you are asking this questions is good but CRW is not something to just randomly try with friends. Go to a CRW camp or find an experienced CRW dog to get some coaching. If the coach says yeah - lets do it on the Sabre 2 - find another coach.

The Rawdogs have a list of CRW coaches around the country which can help in finding someone to teach you. Often they have spare canopies or can locate the correct equipment to use.

Ensure you have decent knives and a thorough safety brief before going up and trying dives. Every wrap/entranglement are different but having
the knowledge beforehand about what to do if something happens is essential.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My CRW dawgs (too wrapped up) out of Elsinore always have canopies and other equipment needed to outfit a pup to get them in the air. Like most people have said get some info from a CRW dawg and specialized/proper equipment, and definitely a proper hook knife.Believe it or not there are specific ways to deal with CRW EP's that are different than than free fall EP's and it is important to have that knowledge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Please train with an actual CRW dog before trying any of this stuff. I started CRW last year and won't get near anyone on a sport canopy, even more so after doing actual CRW. I've had people try to chase me on sport canopies after agreeing to proxy fly, trying to get on my topskin (they get a talking to on the ground). I've had people asking me to CRW with them on my Safire, and don't understand why I refuse until after they take a look at my Lightning setup.

There are a couple of arrogant swoopers at my DZ who, because of my low jump numbers, refuse to listen to reason about doing CRW on their swoop canopies. They seem to think the risk is eliminated with an RDS. They used to be two of the handful of people I'd proxy fly with on sport canopies, but I won't anymore after seeing this attitude.

Proxy flight and end cell bumps can be fun and safe, but you need a mentor with experience, a calm demeanor, and a commitment to a planned break-off. Real CRW is best taught by real CRW dogs. There are lots of them and they are super friendly and welcoming. Elsinore is a great resource on the west coast, and the Raw Dogs can help you out in the midwest, I think. It's worth the bit of travel to learn from real Dogs. They often have gear to lend and are very generous about it. I borrowed gear (and had to force them to accept some cash for the favor) for about 20 jumps before my own Lightning was built.

CRW is a great discipline, and safe proxy flight is a great way to start. Be humble and listen to mentors you can trust.
I'm not a lady, I'm a skydiver.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FlyLikeARaven

They seem to think the risk is eliminated with an RDS.


Ouch, that's like saying you don't need a parachute to jump because you've got a perfectly good helmet. :S

The only excuse for flying CRW with such canopies is if both of them are already rock-solid CRWdogs with a proven history of flying millimeter-perfect next to eachother. But in that case they should know better than to think a trailing pilot chute is the only risk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IJskonijn

***They seem to think the risk is eliminated with an RDS.


Ouch, that's like saying you don't need a parachute to jump because you've got a perfectly good helmet. :S

The only excuse for flying CRW with such canopies is if both of them are already rock-solid CRWdogs with a proven history of flying millimeter-perfect next to eachother. But in that case they should know better than to think a trailing pilot chute is the only risk.

They are very good swoopers, and very good canopy pilots in general. They are not CRW dogs nor very smart people in general--that's my takeaway after this whole scenario. I have let both of them know that I wash my hands of any guilt if they choose to continue to try to stack their Leias.
I'm not a lady, I'm a skydiver.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IJskonijn

Obligatory Friday Freakout

CRW is a bit strange in that respect. It is prime Friday Freakout-territory (been there, done that, even with other experienced CRW-dogs), but when done right, the result is absolutely fantastic!



Don't just show big ways! The smaller ways are way fun too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jSLQ4aVszo

top
Jump more, post less!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This RW-suit was damaged in a collision between two microlined freefall canopies. It clearly shows why CReW and microline don't mix. The canopies hit each other and then slid off each other in less than five seconds. I am not entirely sure of the models and sizes of the canopies, but I believe one of them was a Pulse 150 and the other a Pilot.

Many thanks to the jumper who agreed to let me use this picture and more like it for instructional purposes.
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

DSC_0027small.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey, I don't want to open another thread since there is a discussion going on here. Me and my partner are starting to train proxy flying. No docks, no bumps. Only controlled proximity flying for now. We both fly a microlined canopy squared, so no funny business with agressive profiles.

Our goal is to learn every aspect of canopy flight and to do it safely. We have pilots at our dz that can give basic tips but none of them are CREW and for that matter there ain't nobody near to get 1 on 1 coaching.

So if it is ok I would like to give a short description of our setup and our flight plan and would like to hear some advice, what is good, what is bad.

We both fly a 9-cell squared canopy. I use a 150, while my partner uses a 139 since she is lighter. We have a 0.2 WL difference so I tend to punch trough the air faster and I also bleed a bit more altitude.

1st question would be if a weighted vest would benefit us during the flight so I wouldn't need to hang on my brakes/rears as much during the flight.

For now I am the chaser she deploys after aprox. 3 seconds I deploy immedietly after exiting the aircraft. She sets up the heading and I start my controlled approach from the right side. We practice formation flight drill no lower than 2200ft, RSL detached. We break while keeping visual contact. I dive down to my final approach altitude and setup for landing.

2nd question would consider our break altitude. Is 2200ft considered safe or are we flying proximity too low?

Our drill: At this moment we fly atleast 5m/15ft apart and are making sure we dont come into each others burble. We then make a 360 controlled turn without breaking visual contact after the base pilot gives a signal with legs. I switch into the inner circle and come out on the left side of the formation. After which we continue our controlled straight flight.

3rd question is the described turn appropriate? Is there something we are missing or should consider while doing the switch?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/23/2020 at 5:59 AM, Maddingo said:

 

1st question would be if a weighted vest would benefit us during the flight so I wouldn't need to hang on my brakes/rears as much during the flight.

For now I am the chaser she deploys after aprox. 3 seconds I deploy immedietly after exiting the aircraft. She sets up the heading and I start my controlled approach from the right side. We practice formation flight drill no lower than 2200ft, RSL detached. We break while keeping visual contact. I dive down to my final approach altitude and setup for landing.

2nd question would consider our break altitude. Is 2200ft considered safe or are we flying proximity too low?

Our drill: At this moment we fly atleast 5m/15ft apart and are making sure we dont come into each others burble. We then make a 360 controlled turn without breaking visual contact after the base pilot gives a signal with legs. I switch into the inner circle and come out on the left side of the formation. After which we continue our controlled straight flight.

3rd question is the described turn appropriate? Is there something we are missing or should consider while doing the switch?

The weight vest might help some but your canopy will still probably outfly yours because it is larger.  

I would stop doing the drills by your decision altitude for emergencies.  2200 is not crazy as long as you are paying attention to where you are and not obliviously flying off the airport or into traffic.  

I can't quite picture your turn thing however. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Maddingo First, a disclaimer, I have ~250 jumps so nowhere near competent to provide any strong opinions. However, I have had a coach for proximity flying and have been flying along those lines with two of my friends (so the 3 of us in flock), so I'll share some of the things we were taught and found useful, but take it all with a bit of salt :)

Revise your EPs including wraps and entanglements (e.g. 

Both of you keep a knife or two or more on you (as the joke says, the second one is for you to use after you drop your first one :)).

Depending on the size of the plane and the DZ, make sure to plan accordingly with other people as you'll most likely be hogging the airspace a bit longer than the others.

The three of us jump hop n pops with 3 seconds of separation. We started with 5 seconds until we got used to it. So all of us deploy right away, but we make some slight horizontal separation. Depending on the plane (we jump mostly from C-182), it can be useful that the next person is basically already outside of the plane with their feet out at least when the first one jumps (to save time).

When your canopy deploys, hold the rears and be ready to avoid any unintentional docking :) As you have some stuff to do before the flying starts (disconnect RSL, loosen the chest strap, pull down the slider, whatever you do) first turn 90 degrees from the flight direction for safety and then do all that stuff. Decide with your partner that you both turn the same direction (both 90 left, or both 90 right). This will save you time later as you'll be closer to each other once you're both ready.

We usually do one of the two formations, either stack (2nd flying a bit above and behind the 1st, the 3rd flying a bit above and behind the 2nd) or side-by-side (the 1st in the center, 2nd on one side of the 1st, 3rd on the other side of the 1st). The leader (1st) always announces the intent with their legs (if they're going to turn left or right) and executes a second or two afterwards so that everyone can coordinate properly. In the stack, watch out for the turbulence of the canopy in front of you (the turbulence on the sides seems to be much stronger and will push you out of the formation). In side-by-side, if you get very close, the close parts of the canopies will slow down and will begin to turn the canopies into each other. So if you're getting significantly close, be sure to watch out for this.

Fly slightly braked (toggles around neck/ears). If you're both flying in full speed, the faster one (or the one in front) can slow down, but the one behind cannot speed up. If you cannot catch up to the one in front of you, cutting the corners during turns can help. This is why announcing turns is important.

Discuss leg signals for announcing turns, as well as "slow down"/"speed up" and "separate". What we found really useful is bluetooth communicators. We use Lexin LX-B4FM. It lets you try a bit of more stuff and still stay safe, as you can announce the intent or problems more clearly.

Watch out for other traffic and for each other. If you're using communicators, we found it useful to announce the altitude from time to time.

We usually fly the formation down to the landing, trying to all land in a line at the same time.

Swap positions (we usually keep the same ones in a single day) so you don't get used to and overfit to a single position.

It's useful that one person does nothing (just flies mostly straight), and the other one tries out different things to see how it affects their flight (front risers, rear risers, toggles, sashay...).

I hope you find all of this at least somewhat useful. And again, please take this with a bit of salt and ideally discuss with someone more experienced :)

P. S.
Sorry I forgot to address some of the specific questions you had. 0.2 WL difference isn't significant if they're same/similar canopy model (you can fly with that, I did). A katana will dive deeper than a safire so you'll have significantly different paths even on the same WL.

As for the turn you described, I didn't fully understand it. What we usually do is fly a pattern (like large rectangles) while we're up. The leader plans for those and decides when we turn. After you get a bit used to flying proximity, you can try adding different things like swapping positions in air for example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0