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mbailey465

Harness vs Front Riser HP turns

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I've started playing around with different turns on my Velo 96 (2.3WL) following the recommendation that the ideal turn on my velo will be different to the ideal turn on the katana. I'm relatively new to this wing (60 or so hop and pops) but have been analysing full harness 270s vs front riser 270s on gSwoop and seem to be getting a more consistent, smoother turn with higher speeds using only harness. (data attached)

The advice from my coach is that it's likely because I'm still getting used to the heavy (relative to the katana) front riser pressure and the transition from fronts to harness isn't too smooth yet.

My question is, for those of you using gSwoop, what type of turn do you find gets the best results?

18-15-19.CSV

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mbailey465

I've started playing around with different turns on my Velo 96 (2.3WL) following the recommendation that the ideal turn on my velo will be different to the ideal turn on the katana. I'm relatively new to this wing (60 or so hop and pops) but have been analysing full harness 270s vs front riser 270s on gSwoop and seem to be getting a more consistent, smoother turn with higher speeds using only harness. (data attached)

The advice from my coach is that it's likely because I'm still getting used to the heavy (relative to the katana) front riser pressure and the transition from fronts to harness isn't too smooth yet.

My question is, for those of you using gSwoop, what type of turn do you find gets the best results?



Flight 1 ;)
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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That or Alter Ego course. The bartholomews are amazing instructors and people! I have done all of their courses except red and grey.

Dont take advice from people when it comes to swooping if its not from a professional watching you jump. To many people giving unqualified advice and its hurting the discipline.

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Tfal25

That or Alter Ego course. The bartholomews are amazing instructors and people! I have done all of their courses except red and grey.



MBailey already stated in his post that he has a coach, I am not sure why there is a discussion about different coaches. For all we know he's already following the courses from either Flight 1 or Ater Ego, nobody asked or took an interest in this aspect of his progression even though this imho is beside the point.

Tfal25

Dont take advice from people when it comes to swooping if its not from a professional watching you jump. To many people giving unqualified advice and its hurting the discipline.



This is just a generic answer without any regard to the question. MBailey didn't ask for advice, however you are giving it which, again imho, is not helpful.

His question is simple: comparing fronts to harness what are your digitally measured results. Personally, I'm quite interested and hope that some people will have more knowledge to share.

J

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Thanks for the clarification. The reason I've come to the forums isn't to seek advice, I'm content with my current coach and his advice on the start of the turn is that I should try both and see what I like best/what gets the best results. I've found that the harness turn feels better and gets marginally better performance when digitally measured.

My question is what your experiences are with comparing these as most people believe that front riser turns 'go faster' however don't have any data to back it up.

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I've been doing 450's for a long time now. 

Last year, I wanted to try out only harness to explore the difference. I think I ended up doing 200 jumps with harness only.

I'm jumping a HK-75(WL 2.6) and a HKT-69 (WL 2.9).

  • Front riser turns: Gave me a much faster dive. Sometimes at Pink Open, it can get turbolent. And sometimes so much, that I couldn't hold my front risers down thoughout the dive, ruining the dive.
  • Harness only: A much flatter a searching dive. I was doing the turn too slow though. And when I was speeding up the turn in general, I found it hard to get enough speed for the rollout-power to be efficient. It's quite comfortable though. You just chill and turn, giving your brain peace for concentration(no mucles needed, pretty much).

At the moment, I wanna go back to 450 with fronts, or go to 630 only harness.

At times, I would get the SAME horizontal speed on the 75(WL 2.6) with fronts, compared to the 69(WL 2.9) with harness only.

 

As far as Setup: 

  • Fronts: Easy. You don't travel as much in the dive. You don't have to account for drift in the turn as much.
  • Harness: Semi-Hard. You have to start the turn further out, and you travel a bit more forcing you to really read the winds and try to calculate the drift in the turn.

So my conclussion was:

  • Harness only = less speed and power through the gates. Hard setup. Easy to turn. Needs a bigger turn, or I simply need more training to adjust(faster turn).
  • Fronts = More speed and power through the gates. Easy setup. Hard in turbolence. 
  • Like 1

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On 5/8/2019 at 1:07 AM, Timmeeh said:

So my conclussion was:

  • Harness only = less speed and power through the gates. Hard setup. Easy to turn. Needs a bigger turn, or I simply need more training to adjust(faster turn).
  • Fronts = More speed and power through the gates. Easy setup. Hard in turbolence. 

My experience it pretty much the same.

With fronts you can achieve the speed faster (with less altitude). Using only harness is easier when doing bigger turns, as you have much time and altitude.

But all comes down to personal preference - I like using fronts even with bigger turns like 630s. Some don't use fronts at all, even with smaller turns.

So if you get better results without fronts, it's definitely not a mistake.

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(edited)

I took multiple Flight-1 and Alter Ego courses since I started swooping and did the default toggle surge, to double fronts straight to accelerating turn, a lot and it worked really well while I was doing 270s.

When I went to 450's I struggled to make it work well with fronts and changed to harness only.  Initially the turn was weaker, but I had way more control and feel. Entering from full flight didn't work well, I noticed that without a toggle surge, the max vertical speeds were about 5-10 mph lower than with fronts and I wasn't very steep before the snap, but with the toggle surge, I could get the canopy steep enough without burning rotation for it. I still keep my hands on the fronts to avoid giving input on the rears until after the snap. You have to be more disciplined on the beginning of your turn not to screw this up or you'll be a quarter into your turn still flat. On 270's the theoretical maximum of speed difference might be bigger, as others said, the bigger the turn the least it matters.

I suggest you invest some time on both before making a call, I started trying it after I posted some flysight data here and someone pm'ed me about it. Worked really nice for me. Current max vertical speeds are about 87mph on a 2.7 WL at 1000ft MSL. It's also good to have multiple techniques on your skillset, not every swoop would be your perfect comp swoop, and it will be easier to improvise when you need.

Edited by daffes

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