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kiss_the_sky

Reserve Side Instructor Ride Through on AFF

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Riddle me this, I've had this conversation with a few other AFF instructors and we came to the same conclusion. Why is it protocol for Reserve side instructor to ride through the deployment vs. main side? The only way I see how this makes any sense is if theres nothing out going through the hard deck, in which case the student and main side Instructor have already failed to do their job. If theres anything out, something is gonna have to happen on the right side ( I.e. pull the bag off or the cutaway handle) prior to the Reserve coming out. Seems like a job better suited for the Main side instructor vs. the Reserve side trying to reach underneath to handle shit. Or am I just crazy?!

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kiss_the_sky

Or am I just crazy?!



If you think it's a good idea to reach above the main container to help launch a main, yes.

If you think you'll be able to hang on long enough after a main deploys to pull a cutaway handle, yes.

;)

-Mark

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kiss_the_sky

Riddle me this, I've had this conversation with a few other AFF instructors and we came to the same conclusion. Why is it protocol for Reserve side instructor to ride through the deployment vs. main side?



I do not have the definitive history of the discussions that led to this protocol. (If you think you do, please provide a reference.)

However, from what I know, it is thought that the reserve side instructor insures stability (to the extent that they can), while the main side instructor insures pilot chute deployment (to the extent that they can).

If either of them cannot perform their task, then priorities change and they make the best of the situation.

I once had such an unruly student that I'm glad the reserve side instructor was able to use both hands to keep them stable while I got the pilot chute out, and was able to keep both hands on them throughout the rest of the deployment.

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peek

***Riddle me this, I've had this conversation with a few other AFF instructors and we came to the same conclusion. Why is it protocol for Reserve side instructor to ride through the deployment vs. main side?



I do not have the definitive history of the discussions that led to this protocol. (If you think you do, please provide a reference.)

However, from what I know, it is thought that the reserve side instructor insures stability (to the extent that they can), while the main side instructor insures pilot chute deployment (to the extent that they can).

If either of them cannot perform their task, then priorities change and they make the best of the situation.

I once had such an unruly student that I'm glad the reserve side instructor was able to use both hands to keep them stable while I got the pilot chute out, and was able to keep both hands on them throughout the rest of the deployment.

I'm just curious, and wonder if my memory is worse than I thought, but wasn't the original protocol for the reserve side instructor to fly away somewhere near opening altitude. I'm not arguing with either just trying to figure out if I remember it right or not.

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I have never heard of the protocol of one instructor leaving before pull time.

But I would definitely agree - reserve side keeps them stable - using 2 hands if needed, and the main guy holds on with one hand usually while making sure the pilot chute comes out.

It would be hard for the main to ensure stability and a pull for a rock-and-roll student.

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To re-itterate, my understanding of the protocol was Reserve side to ride through the deployment, not for anyone to leave prior to initiation of the pull sequence. As for reaching above the container, I don't personally see any issues with this, I've assisted many d-bag lift offs. I don't have to fly my whole body over the student to to this, and a single reach and pull of my hand will not affect anything. More specifically, the protocol, as was explained to me, was that during the deployment, so once the pilot chute and dbag are coming off, THEN the main side leaves while Reserve side follows through the remainder of the deployment. Once again this doesn't make any sense to me because if shits already coming out, makes more sense in my mind for the main side to follow through.

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mark

***Or am I just crazy?!



If you think it's a good idea to reach above the main container to help launch a main, yes.

If you think you'll be able to hang on long enough after a main deploys to pull a cutaway handle, yes.

;)

Done it many times to help get a d-bag out, don't see the issue, and if the main comes out then duh not gonna be around, bag comes out and is all rat fucked and bag locked, pretty feasible to pull a cutaway handle on a high speed Mal.

-Mark

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I'm with Peek on this. This is what I was taught and always practiced.

The reserve side's *primary job is to provide stability. That includes through deployment until the student is lifted out of their hands. The main side's *primary job is to communicate with the student and to assure main parachute deployment. Having said that, both assist each other in performing their respective functions and if necessary "switch roles". It's a division of duties and when done properly, worked exceedingly well for all the time I did AFF.

The idea of cutting away for the student and then possibly pulling the reserve rc as well, seems ill advised. At least as standard protocol.

Where I would differ with Peek is......"just once??? B|

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rmarshall234

I'm with Peek on this. This is what I was taught and always practiced.

The reserve side's *primary job is to provide stability. That includes through deployment until the student is lifted out of their hands. The main side's *primary job is to communicate with the student and to assure main parachute deployment. Having said that, both assist each other in performing their respective functions and if necessary "switch roles". It's a division of duties and when done properly, worked exceedingly well for all the time I did AFF.

The idea of cutting away for the student and then possibly pulling the reserve rc as well, seems ill advised. At least as standard protocol.

Where I would differ with Peek is......"just once??? B|



Ok, that makes sense and has is essentially what we do in Frozen Mexico. Although communication is from both Instructors and we are both ready to switch roles ( Main side sometimes becomes Reserve side after the exit :P)and we both ride through deployments.

I do recall watching a video during my AFFI that showed an instructor ( in Japan) riding through a bag lock and cutting away for the student although I think it's better to allow the student to rely on his training and hence there should be great emphasis placed on EP's during the FJC.

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rmarshall234

Where I would differ with Peek is......"just once??? (referring to an unruly student.)



As I posted that I thought that someone might think that odd. Actually, she was outrageously unruly, the worst I have had.

Until pull time it took both hands from both of us instructors to keep her face-to-earth. She flipped us all on exit, then had her feet on her butt and her knees totally down. I let go with my right hand just long enough to pull for her, because she wasn't aware of anything at any time during the freefall. She almost backlooped us when I let go with that hand.

Until then I would never have believed that someone so small could do that to one average sized instructor and one very large instructor.

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I once had a Lev I that indirectly caused me to have a reserve ride:

I was reserve side and Karen Lewis was main and we worked our ass's off to keep him belly to earth. When she finally dumped him out (much to my relief) I tracked off and opened my stiletto and sure enough - it spun up on me. I was so fatigued from the jump I wasn't able to stop it and had to chop. When I went to pull the cut-away handle, I was now totally out of juice and couldn't clear it until I said out loud to myself "save yourself weakling" which provided the shot of adrenaline needed to finish the job. Not my worst, but one of the most memorable.

You're absolutely right about the forces that can be involved up there. It would be interesting to see an aerodynamic study of it.

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kiss_the_sky

...because if shits already coming out, makes more sense in my mind for the main side to follow through.



Why? - Please explain to me how in your mind, and where exactly - you'd envision this supposed advantage the main-side would have in being there, riding-out, versus the reserve-side.
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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faulknerwn

You have to consider burbles as well - I have witnessed pilot chutes hesitating in the instructors burble (it was on video too!) and them backing away can help the pilot chute hit clean air.



This - Main side needs to help at pull time and then provide clear air. He's the most likely of the two to end up having only one hand on the student at that point. Give the ride-through to the guy most likely to have two hands on at the very beginning - he has a better option to stay there if needed. All goes well, drop one grip and ensure even better air (and don't get kicked).

In the end, IMO, it's still always the same for any question - just make sure both instructors agree on the plan and then execute that plan.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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peek


As I posted that I thought that someone might think that odd. Actually, she was outrageously unruly, the worst I have had.
.
.

Until then I would never have believed that someone so small could do that to one average sized instructor and one very large instructor.



I just want to point out - these are seriously the most fun types of jumps I've had. I learn so much.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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My understanding is that once the pilot chute is extracted by the student, the main side releases and goes away to assure clear air for the pilot chute. In the event of a problem, like student not altitude aware or no pull, main side signals student, moves student hand to handle and/or deploys main no lower than 4500 and then tracks away. Reserve side stays to provide stability and take any problem in the event that the student decides not to release the pilot chute, or pilot chute hesitation. Reserve side rides through until student extracted from his hand as main inflates in either case of student pull or main side pulls for the student.
Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

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