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michaelmullins

Refunds

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I was at an SOS event at Sky's the Limit in Pa. One guy who drove a long way just for the event was refused a refund on his unused jump tickets after the weather went to shit with winds. We should probably make a list of these operation so at least people are aware.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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DBCOOPER

I was at an SOS event at Sky's the Limit in Pa. One guy who drove a long way just for the event was refused a refund on his unused jump tickets after the weather went to shit with winds. We should probably make a list of these operation so at least people are aware.



Quote

Exactly what I am talking about.
Mike Mullins

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stratostar

I have unused reg priced lift tickets from a dz, they moved to a new location and changed the name of the dz. the same guys owns the place and he refused to refund the tickets and also refused to honor the tickets at the new location because he said it’s a different dz now with new name. He didn’t care that I said but you still got/have my money!



When people screw me over, I start thinking vindictive thoughts. Like grabbing reserve handles of as many rental rigs as I can manage at once and then asking him if wants to refund my money or repack a shit ton of reserves?

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I doubt this situation would arise that often, and why would it be so difficult?

Most of these transactions would just be a couple of clicks of a mouse. Minus an amount from one account and adding it to another. They'd be doing this for normal transactions anyway.

You'd be hard pressed to find a human at some banks these days.



well actually, it can be MANY clicks at a mouse and MANY things at the manifest window - because we deal with this every day at Skydive City.
"transfer some money to this guy"
"oh, wait, you don't have enough money to transfer any at all."
"But I have block jumps"
"Yes, you bought a block of discounted jumps, which are not transferable."
"Can't we just cash in some of those block jumps and transfer the money?"

Maybe we do and maybe we don't, but that still takes several more screens to do

"That persons reserve is out of date so they cannot check in or jump anyway." "Who is that guy anyway?
"Jose..."
"Jose who?"
"I don't know - you know that guy I jumped with yesterday..."

All the while there are 5 more people standing behind that person also needing help to get on a load. Software does not look like Minority Report, sorry, it simply does not.

It is kind of like buying something at the store, and asking the clerk to ring in part it on one card, some in cash and then have your friend pay the balance on their card. Nothing wrong with it, but it is time consuming for the business.

Keep in mind that when you want to jump with your friend/coach/buddy/organizer, with someone else paying for whichever jump, that is YOUR arrangement, NOT the dropzone's arrangement.

You are then asking the dropzone to engage and cover the overhead of managing your business transaction with your friend/coach/whomever.....

Yes we do it, yes it can be a pain. Yes, I wish sometimes that if you are going to be paying for someone else's jumps, then just put money on THEIR account, as the number of 'mouse clicks' is more than one might think.

The dropzone is not responsible for the management of your account(s). you are. we are there to assist and we have every right to set some basic guidelines on how our business is run, and you have every right as whether you want to follow those guidelines or go somewhere else.

So again, we already do all this and we do it willingly, however, poopoo-ing the overhead and frustration with it is equally as frustrating as wondering why it is no problem for the DZ....

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There are often credit card rules involved too. If you pay by credit card, the business cannot give you cash back, because then that is considered a cash advance and has immediate interest instead of a grace period. Plus, the credit card companies warn merchants never to give cash back because if the customer disputes the first charge, and business gave cash back, the business might be out the money - especially if the credit card was stolen because the merchant is liable, not the bank.

If the business ran your credit card on day 1, then refunds you on day 2, then there are credit card processing fees, which can be be charged twice, one for each transaction. If the DZO refunds you the same day then the transaction can be voided instead of credited, and a void has a transaction fee that is much less.

And there is another issue - if the bank sees a credit for a refund, where that card was never run at the merchant, often the bank will reject the transaction, and/or the risk management department will call the DZO (merchant) and warn them they are risking bank fraud, and could increase the fees the merchant pays on all cards (tandems+skydivers) because the bank sees them as a higher risk merchant. So the DZ has to verify the skydiver is using the exact same card for the refund. Large corporations like Home Depot have software programs that track credit cards to make sure refunds go to the proper card, however to store credit card info you have to have PCI compliance certification, which is often a million dollar investment per year for the software developer. DZs using DZ specific software cannot have the same level of data storage, although there are newer technologies like tokens that allow the DZ to store a token and let the processor remain PCI compliant... Without this technology, such as using a plain credit card swipe machine, the DZ has to find the original paper slip to verify the last 4 digits of the credit card transaction or search the bank statements they get from their bank.

And some visiting skydivers have, believe it or not, received a credit for unused jumps then disputed the original credit card charge for the original transaction months later. (I have had to research these transactions before). As the DZ has to prove to the credit card company (who always sides on the side of the consumer when in doubt) why the disputed charge was valid, it can cause a headache and a huge risk for the DZO as he might lose the case if there is not enough proof, considering you don't often sign a receipt every time you manifest and/or come to the window and say "transfer my unused funds to Joe".

It is easy for the skydiver to prove he paid the DZO, it is next to impossible for the DZO to prove the skydiver was on the plane as unlike Southwest Airlines there is no TSA to verify your boarding pass + boarding pass scan at the gate.

So if I was a DZO, I would be much more concerned about refunding credit card transactions due to the possibility of fraud, than cash.

Perhaps a refund request form could resolve the liability that is a printout of the transactions on the account with a signature "I agree". But, if that credit card was stolen, the signature is useless.

All that being said, I think it is reasonable for a DZO to say, "Jump tickets purchased by credit card will be refunded up to 5 days after purchase, with a 5% restocking fee, to the same credit card that was originally charged, full priced jump tickets purchased by cash are refundable indefinitely, discounted jump tickets are non-refundable."

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tdog

There are often credit card rules involved too. If you pay by credit card, the business cannot give you cash back, because then that is considered a cash advance and has immediate interest instead of a grace period. Plus, the credit card companies warn merchants never to give cash back because if the customer disputes the first charge, and business gave cash back, the business might be out the money - especially if the credit card was stolen because the merchant is liable, not the bank.


If the business ran your credit card on day 1, then refunds you on day 2, then there are credit card processing fees, which can be be charged twice, one for each transaction. If the DZO refunds you the same day then the transaction can be voided instead of credited, and a void has a transaction fee that is much less.

And there is another issue - if the bank sees a credit for a refund, where that card was never run at the merchant, often the bank will reject the transaction, and/or the risk management department will call the DZO (merchant) and warn them they are risking bank fraud, and could increase the fees the merchant pays on all cards (tandems+skydivers) because the bank sees them as a higher risk merchant. So the DZ has to verify the skydiver is using the exact same card for the refund. Large corporations like Home Depot have software programs that track credit cards to make sure refunds go to the proper card, however to store credit card info you have to have PCI compliance certification, which is often a million dollar investment per year for the software developer. DZs using DZ specific software cannot have the same level of data storage, although there are newer technologies like tokens that allow the DZ to store a token and let the processor remain PCI compliant... Without this technology, such as using a plain credit card swipe machine, the DZ has to find the original paper slip to verify the last 4 digits of the credit card transaction or search the bank statements they get from their bank.

And some visiting skydivers have, believe it or not, received a credit for unused jumps then disputed the original credit card charge for the original transaction months later. (I have had to research these transactions before). As the DZ has to prove to the credit card company (who always sides on the side of the consumer when in doubt) why the disputed charge was valid, it can cause a headache and a huge risk for the DZO as he might lose the case if there is not enough proof, considering you don't often sign a receipt every time you manifest and/or come to the window and say "transfer my unused funds to Joe".

It is easy for the skydiver to prove he paid the DZO, it is next to impossible for the DZO to prove the skydiver was on the plane as unlike Southwest Airlines there is no TSA to verify your boarding pass + boarding pass scan at the gate.

So if I was a DZO, I would be much more concerned about refunding credit card transactions due to the possibility of fraud, than cash.

Perhaps a refund request form could resolve the liability that is a printout of the transactions on the account with a signature "I agree". But, if that credit card was stolen, the signature is useless.

All that being said, I think it is reasonable for a DZO to say, "Jump tickets purchased by credit card will be refunded up to 5 days after purchase, with a 5% restocking fee, to the same credit card that was originally charged, full priced jump tickets purchased by cash are refundable indefinitely, discounted jump tickets are non-refundable."




Regarding credit card refunds, as a DZO I have refunded many credit cards over many years. I do agree that credit card purchases should not be refunded in cash but there is really no problem with refunding the card. The DZ cc provider may or may not still charge the original transaction fee to the DZ after a refund is made but if you call them, they will also refund the fee to the DZ. Since the fee is usually quite small on the usual size transaction that is made, I do not bother to ask about it. If the refund is substantial, then I will.

You aslo say "And there is another issue - if the bank sees a credit for a refund, where that card was never run at the merchant, often the bank will reject the transaction"....
Actually, if you try to run a refund on a card that was never charged, it will not go through. This is an important safety feature and if it were otherwise you could be having your employees refund their and their friends cards at will at your expens.

There is really no excuse for not giving refunds and it is terrible customer service to not do so.

Mike Mullins

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Let's not forget when a certain manifesting software does an update Friday night, now it's Saturday AM and the system is down, you have 20 tandems checking in, and that asshole 4-way team is wanting to put different amounts of money on their account then transfer $X to the coach's account and $Y to the video guy's.

FWIW, TK isn't exaggerating. I wish my team had just made a team account as it would've saved us, and manifest, at least 30 minutes a weekend

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So again, we already do all this and we do it willingly, however, poopoo-ing the overhead and frustration with it is equally as frustrating as wondering why it is no problem for the DZ....


Yes!
Again, I don't run a DZ but a business that is in many ways similar and I was cracking up at your examples, as I recognize them, as well as the attitude: "well what's the problem: this should be simple for you!" :S

I think running a business is in some way like being an experienced skydiver: You shake your head at some of the suggestions whuffos give, that they think are totally reasonable. Experienced skydivers on this site often marvel at the ridiculousness of people who have never done something thinking they can tell them what works better. Well: The same is true for running a business. If you haven't done it before you can't even imagine what it really takes and how easy or complicated something really is.

Again: I know this has nothing to do with the original post. Certainly there are practices that are generally unfair, no matter what. But: Putting money on an account and then wanting it back is additional work (more than you think!) for a business, and it's nice they allow you to do it. Transferring money between different customers accounts is even more so. They should ALWAYS refund you unused money, but the fact they allow you to prepay is an OPTIONAL and ADDITIONAL service. If it gets to be too much work for them they can say: "You have to pay for each individual jump" (and that might mean delays in you manifesting and maybe missing the next call)

I have plenty respect for anyone operating a DZ and always want to comply with their rules as much as possible.
(And I also shake my head at some businesses' practices!)

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....I think it's funny when a DZ increases jump ticket prices for a boogie and then says they will credit your account for any unused tickets but only at the regular jump ticket rate........and yes there was a boogie registration fee. I lost a lot of faith in humanity on that one

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DBCOOPER

I was at an SOS event at Sky's the Limit in Pa. One guy who drove a long way just for the event was refused a refund on his unused jump tickets after the weather went to shit with winds. We should probably make a list of these operation so at least people are aware.



That's some horrible customer service there. Having been to other dropzones in this area (Above the Poconos and Endless mountains) I can assure you that's not the norm around here. Most people will refund money for things that aren't your fault.

I was out in Iowa a few months ago and went jumping with some friends. They signed up for tandems at Quad City Skydiving and they said up front they would refund deposits if the weather was bad since people weren't local. Thankfully the weather was good.

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As far as i know, it is mostly common for drop zone to have money on your account, maybe even jump tickets, be transferrable from person to person. I would assume there would be a local at the drop zone in question that you transfer to and have them give you the cash so you aren't screwed if you can't get a refund

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DBCOOPER

I was at an SOS event at Sky's the Limit in Pa. One guy who drove a long way just for the event was refused a refund on his unused jump tickets after the weather went to shit with winds. We should probably make a list of these operation so at least people are aware.



I jump at Sky's The Limit. It's closest to me. And yeah, they have some weird policies.

No Refunds, I thought, was the norm. When I took a trip to DeLand, I was pretty shocked that they can actually cash you out at the end of the day. Same thing at The Ranch. Weather turned shitty, I had about $100 on the account, got it back no questions asked.

Another STL thing that was kind of crappy, is the "$50 administration fee if you cancel tandem" but I am not sure if it's norm anywhere else.

Had friends call on Friday afternoon to find out if they can just show up on Sat and do tandems. They were told that yeah, sure, but they highly recommend to reserve, which they did. One person chickened out. On Saturday, with barely any tandems on a list, and were charged $50 for cancelled person only because they reserved and didn't walk in. I wish I was getting paid $50 to put a name on a sheet.

Also, happened to a friend. STL has "bring two tandems, get a free ticket" punchcard. Friend brought two tandems, got card punched, but they refused to trade it in for a ticket.

So, while I like the people at STL, the way they do business is shady.

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obelixtim



Most of these transactions would just be a couple of clicks of a mouse. Minus an amount from one account and adding it to another. They'd be doing this for normal transactions anyway.
.



Not knowing what software they're using you're making a big assumption there.
There are definitely some accounting programs (I'm thinking SAGE) where crediting refunds (particularly if it's after a monthly reporting cycle) is a real pain in the arse and can play havoc with the reporting of a P&L. It's possible some DZ software is similar.


Regarding the jump ticket refund I think it's simple to use the airline ticket model - at least that's the way I'd do it:

Full price tickets should be refunded at will upto a certain expiry date (several years).

Block tickets which include a discount are refundable at the discounted rate, less a small administrative fee.

Special-rate / holiday tickets are non-refundable as the income may be needed against special aircraft or entertainment for that event.

Money on account should be transferable, less any bank fees that may apply. I'm not sure if VISA, for example, would charge the DZ for issuing refunds the way they charge for small purchases. It's not fair that a DZ should suck up those costs.

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yoink

***

Most of these transactions would just be a couple of clicks of a mouse. Minus an amount from one account and adding it to another. They'd be doing this for normal transactions anyway.
.



Not knowing what software they're using you're making a big assumption there.
There are definitely some accounting programs (I'm thinking SAGE) where crediting refunds (particularly if it's after a monthly reporting cycle) is a real pain in the arse and can play havoc with the reporting of a P&L. It's possible some DZ software is similar.


Regarding the jump ticket refund I think it's simple to use the airline ticket model - at least that's the way I'd do it:

Full price tickets should be refunded at will upto a certain expiry date (several years).

Block tickets which include a discount are refundable at the discounted rate, less a small administrative fee.

Special-rate / holiday tickets are non-refundable as the income may be needed against special aircraft or entertainment for that event.

Money on account should be transferable, less any bank fees that may apply. I'm not sure if VISA, for example, would charge the DZ for issuing refunds the way they charge for small purchases. It's not fair that a DZ should suck up those costs.

Actually, the cc clearing house that the DZ does business with will refund any service fees if asked.

However, to avoid any hassles or possible service charges, the DZ can simply put a hold on the card for an amount greater than the person will probably charge, just like a hotel:

"Some hotels place a hold amount on your card when you make your reservation or check in. This reduces the amount of available credit on your card, but it’s not a charge. The hold amount might equal one night’s stay or a daily incidental fee equal to the number of days you’ll stay. The hold is released after you check out and pay."

There is really no excuse for any DZ not to refund full price jump tickets. To ensure this never happens to you, make all your charges American Express. If the DZ will not refund, explain it to AMEX, they will immediately remove the disputed amount and the DZ has 10 days to prove that you actually incurred the expense. Same with some MC or Visa but AMEX is much better in these situations. Never, ever, pay with a debit card.

Mike Mullins

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DB Cooper. "Guy went to an SOS event, ...weather went bad- guy refused a refund" Most readers would agree that is a bad practice/policy. However, not enough facts there to indict the DZ for bad policy and name them as a bad actor..

If he paid in cash, then he should be outraged and go to this forum to complain about it and name the DZ. Fair enough.

But, if he paid with a credit card, he has to deal with the consequences and all of the stuff outlined in the T dog response.

Any jumper who goes to an event and uses a credit card will have to deal with the consequences, once again, outlined by Tdog.
Discounts for admin fees, refund procedures from the provider, etc etc. /Delay in the processing, etc. Live with it. That's the penalty for using a credit card. There are no details of how this was eventually handled, whether the expected refund was made (ever) and what hassles the DZ operator had and whether it began as a credit card deposit. In short, before naming a DZ as "bad", there should be more info of how this started and more importantly, how it ended.

Anyone who goes to an event and pays cash (I'll wager) will instantly get any refund, that he asks for if the event is cancelled by weather. If not, then using the forum to complain is legit. Bad actor for sure.

Use a credit card? Want a refund? Deal with the problems and consequences of using a credit card and don't complain too early and don't complain about charges for the hassle and can of worms problems caused by it. It was your choice to use it. The eventual outcome should be reasonable for the jumper and the DZ; but expecting it be done on the spot/instantly depends on how sophisticated the DZ's system is set up. Instant refunds may be unreasonable to a small business operating as a Drop Zone.

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I don't care if he paid in bitcoins. The guy had to walk away with 75 dollars worth of quick fading thermal paper. Is a sucky policy. If you use a card, they charge you extra. That's fair. Charge for the refund also,that's fair, if that's what what it cost them to run the transaction. But to just say no refunds to a traveling jumper just sucks.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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Skydive Spain and Skydive Algarve (both run by British people) also have a no-refund policy.
Annoying, to say the least.
They are not close to where I live, so I'm not interested in "you can use those tickets when you return". I may never go back there, and in the mean time I have money on manifests all over the world :-(

About a year ago I went to Algarve for a week. Shitty weather most of the week, and not a lot of jumping due to wind, rain and clouds. Manifest was NOT busy at all.

So the result of this policy: we bought 5 tickets at the beginning of the week, after that we got scared that we might not even make another 5 jumps. So we bought 1 ticket at a time after that. How is that for extra work for manifest?

At the last day we wanted to make a last jump, bought a ticket because you can't manifest otherwise.... and then jumping got cancelled for the rest of the day. Still no refund for that last ticket. Really pisses me off, and I don't think I'll go back there soon, even tough I love the dropzone in every other respect.

By contrast: when I went to Empuria Brava I dumped a load of cash on my manifest and at the end of the week I got back what was left. So much easier! And so much less work for manifest!

IMO, the only reason for this policy is simply making money on jumps that are not made. Because most visiting jumpers will either never return, or they loose or forget their tickets.

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IMO, the only reason for this policy is simply making money on jumps that are not made. Because most visiting jumpers will either never return, or they loose or forget their tickets.



And so short sighted. Jumpers are far more likely to buy and then forget about tickets if they don't have to worry about greedy low life operators ripping them off. I've seen a few people over the years who think this way. They are not among the best DZOs, but some of them have been successful.

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dpreguy

DB Cooper. "Guy went to an SOS event, ...weather went bad- guy refused a refund" Most readers would agree that is a bad practice/policy. However, not enough facts there to indict the DZ for bad policy and name them as a bad actor..

If he paid in cash, then he should be outraged and go to this forum to complain about it and name the DZ. Fair enough.

But, if he paid with a credit card, he has to deal with the consequences and all of the stuff outlined in the T dog response.

Any jumper who goes to an event and uses a credit card will have to deal with the consequences, once again, outlined by Tdog.
Discounts for admin fees, refund procedures from the provider, etc etc. /Delay in the processing, etc. Live with it. That's the penalty for using a credit card. There are no details of how this was eventually handled, whether the expected refund was made (ever) and what hassles the DZ operator had and whether it began as a credit card deposit. In short, before naming a DZ as "bad", there should be more info of how this started and more importantly, how it ended.

Anyone who goes to an event and pays cash (I'll wager) will instantly get any refund, that he asks for if the event is cancelled by weather. If not, then using the forum to complain is legit. Bad actor for sure.

Use a credit card? Want a refund? Deal with the problems and consequences of using a credit card and don't complain too early and don't complain about charges for the hassle and can of worms problems caused by it. It was your choice to use it. The eventual outcome should be reasonable for the jumper and the DZ; but expecting it be done on the spot/instantly depends on how sophisticated the DZ's system is set up. Instant refunds may be unreasonable to a small business operating as a Drop Zone.



In the US, surcharges are illegal in California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Kansas, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, Oklahoma, Texas, and Puerto Rico. However, a merchant can still have a "discounted cash price" and a "credit card price", so it ends up the same.

Also, surcharges and convenience charges are two different things. Convenience fees are those fees that are charged for non face-to-face transactions, such as buying on the internet. The CC providers allow convenience charges, they discourage or do not allow surcharges. Again, merchants get around surcharges by posting a cash discount price.

As for the "time and trouble" a merchant (DZ) goes through to refund a card, that is absolute crap. I can refund a card in about 5 seconds.

So here is how is should happen when someone requests a refund for jumps charged on his card:

1. DZ looks on the computer and sees what your total charges are and what you have paid. If they don't use a computer, they have to have recorded the information somewhere, somehow, or you could simply get on loads without paying.
2. DZ takes your card, swipes it, and punches in the difference.

The merchant could also add on the surcharge that the DZ paid originally to run the card, typically 3%, if they did not charge a fee upfront. Of course if they charged a surcharge upfront then it is unfair to charge a surcharge on the refund. The DZ can actually get this surcharge back from the cc company, anyway, on the amount refunded.

Again, if a DZ keeps your money for services not rendered, contact your cc company and, depending on the company, you will probably get your money back immediately. Very true for AMEX, vaires with other cc companies, your are out of luck if you used a debit card.

My advice when planning a trip to a DZ, call and ask them what their refund policy is and make it clear that you will go elsewhere if they plan on keeping any unused money on your account or refuse to refund tickets. I know that due to circumstances you may have to go there but then just pay for one jump at a time.









Mike Mullins

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agreed - not only are not issuing refunds probably illegal - the CC Company option is often the best course of action for consumers.

Maybe 5 CC disputes in 22 years at Skydive City - I have never won any of them, even when I was 100% right. The companies will invariably go with the customer rather than the merchant, and all the consumer has to do is continue to say "I am not satisfied"

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The companies will invariably go with the customer rather than the merchant, and all the consumer has to do is continue to say "I am not satisfied"



Good to know, TK. I'll be by Sunday.:P
Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

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While this might not add much to the overall conversation:

Quote

As for the "time and trouble" a merchant (DZ) goes through to refund a card, that is absolute crap. I can refund a card in about 5 seconds.



That is true only in ideal circumstances.
For example, if the CC was charged through our online booking system, it is possible to refund in that system, but only after CC charges have cleared (which takes 24 hours IF the initial charge was not on a weekend--otherwise longer). So to refund before that time, you have to log into the system of the payment processor that's behind the online software, search for the specific transaction (often not as easy to find as one would wish) and then cancel the transaction before it had gone through (generally that's not a system that the front desk person would have access to, so involves getting a manager/owner)

With in-person credit card transactions via physical terminals, you have to have the actual credit card to slide it again for a refund and if you don't, it's a major headache involving calls to the merchant provider with 30min+ hold times, or you can wait until the charge has gone through and use the online system for the refund--but that could be days later. (We've also heard of people wanting refunds, where the CC they initially used had expired between the charge and the refund, making a simple refund impossible)

Additionally, you have to make sure that the person who calls you and wants a refund has actually paid in the first place (sure, if it's the end of the same day and they want their deposit back, then it's not a big deal, but if they call at the end of the season and say they purchased a 20-jumps block back in April and used only 7 of them, you'll have to spend some time verifying that)

Still, those are not reasons not to give the refund, but the "this only takes 5 seconds" argument from people who are not running businesses and don't know the details of the processes involved, is a bit annoying.
(Lastly: If you call the CC company to invalidate the charge instead of the DZ/vendor himself, the CC company charges the business an extra fee--usually around $15--for the trouble of taking the money back. So call the DZ first--they'd be really stupid not to refund and then have to pay the extra fee. Of course the bank usually sides with the consumer and they love these refunds because they get a fee no matter who wins the dispute)

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mbohu

While this might not add much to the overall conversation:

Quote

As for the "time and trouble" a merchant (DZ) goes through to refund a card, that is absolute crap. I can refund a card in about 5 seconds.



That is true only in ideal circumstances.
For example, if the CC was charged through our online booking system, it is possible to refund in that system, but only after CC charges have cleared (which takes 24 hours IF the initial charge was not on a weekend--otherwise longer). So to refund before that time, you have to log into the system of the payment processor that's behind the online software, search for the specific transaction (often not as easy to find as one would wish) and then cancel the transaction before it had gone through (generally that's not a system that the front desk person would have access to, so involves getting a manager/owner)

With in-person credit card transactions via physical terminals, you have to have the actual credit card to slide it again for a refund and if you don't, it's a major headache involving calls to the merchant provider with 30min+ hold times, or you can wait until the charge has gone through and use the online system for the refund--but that could be days later. (We've also heard of people wanting refunds, where the CC they initially used had expired between the charge and the refund, making a simple refund impossible)

Additionally, you have to make sure that the person who calls you and wants a refund has actually paid in the first place (sure, if it's the end of the same day and they want their deposit back, then it's not a big deal, but if they call at the end of the season and say they purchased a 20-jumps block back in April and used only 7 of them, you'll have to spend some time verifying that)

Still, those are not reasons not to give the refund, but the "this only takes 5 seconds" argument from people who are not running businesses and don't know the details of the processes involved, is a bit annoying.
(Lastly: If you call the CC company to invalidate the charge instead of the DZ/vendor himself, the CC company charges the business an extra fee--usually around $15--for the trouble of taking the money back. So call the DZ first--they'd be really stupid not to refund and then have to pay the extra fee. Of course the bank usually sides with the consumer and they love these refunds because they get a fee no matter who wins the dispute)



You say:
"With in-person credit card transactions via physical terminals, you have to have the actual credit card to slide it again for a refund and if you don't, it's a major headache involving calls to the merchant provider with 30min+ hold times, or you can wait until the charge has gone through and use the online system for the refund--but that could be days later."

That is actually not true, I refund cc all the time with just the card number even if it was for a purchase made with the physical card, have never had a problem doing this.

Then you say: "Additionally, you have to make sure that the person who calls you and wants a refund has actually paid in the first place (sure, if it's the end of the same day and they want their deposit back, then it's not a big deal, but if they call at the end of the season and say they purchased a 20-jumps block back in April and used only 7 of them, you'll have to spend some time verifying that)."

The credit card will only refund to the card that made the original purchase. You look up how much the person is owed then you refund the card that is in that persons name, you have the last 4 digits of the card on file. Again, you can only refund a card that has been charged by you.

As far as 3rd party vendors, that was not in the scope of this discussion, we are simply talking about persons putting money on their account at the DZ or purchasing physical tickets.

Mike Mullins

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