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thetreehugger

Wrist mount cam for tandem PASSENGER?? +funny cutaway tandem video

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thetreehugger

This whole video, from the description, to the look on the guy's face, is hilarious to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSB9yZp7mUM


But it makes me wonder, where are you allowed to have a wrist mount camera as a tandem? I didn't think that was allowed. (at least not here in Canada.. maybe elsewhere it is?)




Most DZs don't allow it. We simply tell them about the 200 jump rule. Personally I don't allow it for two completely different reasons. The first is the same reason you can't bring your own popcorn to the theatre. The second is that I don't want the customer to be so distracted. Most people would probably reverse that order.

I don't think there is a real "rule" against it. Even if there is it is like the rule about helmets. Ignored. All students are supposed to wear "shock absorbing headgear" in Canada according to CSPA. But lots of DZs do bareheaded tandem. It makes the video look better.

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skydiverek

Plus, the Tandem Instructor did NOT pull the reserve handle...



I'm ok with him not pulling the handle. I'm not even a little ok with the fact that he did not have his hand on it. And he needs line twist training as well. He is probably a rookie, he definitely is poorly trained.

Videos of under performing TIs on YouTube. One more good reason to not let the passenger hold their own camera!

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gowlerk

***Plus, the Tandem Instructor did NOT pull the reserve handle...



I'm ok with him not pulling the handle. I'm not even a little ok with the fact that he did not have his hand on it. And he needs line twist training as well. He is probably a rookie, he definitely is poorly trained.

Videos of under performing TIs on YouTube. One more good reason to not let the passenger hold their own camera!

So your ok with tandem instructors not executing the correct procedures. ie. Not pulling the reserve handle. Simply take a look at a recent SB from a non-tandem gear manufacturer about some RSL shackles - they can become disconnected. If he's missing the obvious and not pulling the reserve handle on a cutaway - what else is he deviating from.

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skytribe

******Plus, the Tandem Instructor did NOT pull the reserve handle...



I'm ok with him not pulling the handle. I'm not even a little ok with the fact that he did not have his hand on it. And he needs line twist training as well. He is probably a rookie, he definitely is poorly trained.

Videos of under performing TIs on YouTube. One more good reason to not let the passenger hold their own camera!

So your ok with tandem instructors not executing the correct procedures. ie. Not pulling the reserve handle. Simply take a look at a recent SB from a non-tandem gear manufacturer about some RSL shackles - they can become disconnected. If he's missing the obvious and not pulling the reserve handle on a cutaway - what else is he deviating from.

Yes, my plan for tandem cutaways is too observe the result first before pulling the other handle. Most times the reserve will be open before I have confirmed a successful cutaway. My hand would be ready to either deploy or to deal with another potential problem.

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Quote

I'm ok with him not pulling the handle.



I presume this statement was a typing error and the the word NOT is missing?

When Executing the Hands should be on the handles.

I do agree that this might be an inexperienced Tandem master and should get some retrain done.

It is not a very good idea to hold the riser you are trying to cut away!!!!

Blue Skies

Rodger

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I'm wondering about the liability angle.

So if there is an injury or a fatality and the DZ shoots video of it, would the DZ own it? In a civil suit would the family have access to it? And could they use it as evidence in the trial. Who would own it? The student may have commissioned it but if the drop zone doesn't deposit the check who owns it?

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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Like any other pictures commissioned by a customer. They belong to the photographer. Who may or may not have an agreement with the DZ that says they belong to the DZ. Even if they supply a copy to the paying customer, they still own the footage. If the customer shoots the footage, he owns the rights to it. In the USA.

As far as evidence goes it is possible to subpoena any evidence. And it is illegal to destroy evidence. It doesn't matter who owns it.

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gowlerk

Like any other pictures commissioned by a customer. They belong to the photographer.

Yes but if the customer is paying for a copy then he legally owns the copy while the photographer retains rights to the original. It's like if I buy a movie on Amazon. I dont own the original, but the physical copy I have in hand is my property.

RiggerLee

The student may have commissioned it but if the drop zone doesn't deposit the check who owns it?

Lee



It doesn't matter if the DZ doesn't cash the check. First, no one pays by check anymore so I am not sure that's even relevant but if they did pay by check and the funds were present in the account, then a DZ failing to deposit the check does not change the fact that the transaction is considered complete and payment in full made. If you sell me something and a day later I decide I want it back so I call you up and say I never spent the money you gave me, that has no relevance on the fact that the exchange is done and I paid for the product. What you do or dont do with the money is irrelevant.

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Yes, all that is true. The photographer retains the rights to commercial use, but the customer owns the right to display the work. None of that affects its value or use as evidence. No one has the right to deny its use in court.

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Camera on student, not telling the student to arch while dealing with line twist and improper emergency procedures while pulling handles or handle in this case.

If it smells like a Lodi and it sounds like a Lodi. It must be a Lodi. Lol

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20_kN

Yes but if the customer is paying for a copy then he legally owns the copy while the photographer retains rights to the original. It's like if I buy a movie on Amazon. I don't own the original, but the physical copy I have in hand is my property.



Well, you own the piece of plastic that the information is embedded into (presuming a movie on DVD), but you don't own the information (the movie itself). You simply have a license to use that info.
And it's a pretty limited and specific license.

It's called "Intellectual property" and there's a lot of law/legalities on it.

The same applies to a tandem video. There is usually a license agreement (somewhere) that states that the DZ still holds all rights to the video, prohibits commercial use or duplication, ect.

Most places don't make a big deal of customers posting/sharing on social media, but any commercial use is often stopped if the DZ becomes aware of it.

For example, I have heard (no direct personal knowledge) of a used car lot owner who did a tandem, and then used part of the video in a commercial for his business.
Part of the waiver included the video license, which clearly stated this wasn't allowed.
It was stopped.

But, to a question posted above, none of this applies in a court of law. If a judge issues an order for the DZ (or other owner of the video rights) to produce it, it must be given to the court.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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this talk of evidence and video got me thinking, and I wish one of the lawyers was still around to give 2c on this HYPOTHETICAL:

Steve is fun jumping at a boogie. He chats up a tandem pax, sees that she has no video, and decides after landing to get a shot of her landing. He is not in a great position, but gets the approach and landing. The landing is bad, the pax is seriously injured. No one noticed Steve shooting. He puts the camera away and heads to the packing tent.

Now as I understand it, Steve can't delete the video, even as a disinterested person, because he reasonably would think he has evidence that may be required in a lawsuit. Is this true?

Does he need to volunteer that he has it? How long would he have to keep it? Would a lawyer get the entire list of boogie attendees and depose them all to see if any one saw / recorded anything?
It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

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I have never allowed a student to video his own jump because:
I feared he would bash me in the face with his camera.
I feared that he would take $&@?! ..... er ..... poor quality video.
I feared that he would be distracted by the camera.
I feared that he would drop the camera ...... and injure someone on the ground.

As for the TI's not putting his thumb though the reserve ripcord: poor form. OTOH - if he wore a camera on his left hand - He would have missed great footage of the reserve deploying.

As for copyright ....... better DZs offer refunds for "camera failure" and refund the student.
Similarly, if outside video shows potentially litigious behaviour, the student gets a refund, but the outside videographer still gets paid. The vidiot gets paid on the condition that video never a goes public.

As for whether $&@"?! lawyers can subpoena video evidence? Yes, $&@"?! lawyers can convince a judge to subpoena any type of evidence.

There are slimy ways to avoid or delay providing evidence. For example: the last time lawyer suggested subpoenaing me to testify against a DZO, I counter-offered with "dumb insolence." He never asked me to testify.

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A few things make more since now. There was... I think this was the double fatality, canopy collision. The camera helmet was knocked off one of the jumpers heads. DZ was like, Oh well. One of the jumpers went out and searched through the field all day till he found it so we could know what happened. The DZ was pissed. They gave him so much shit over that he was almost band from the drop zone. At the time I didn't understand why?

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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riggerrob

I have never allowed a student to video his own jump because:
I feared he would bash me in the face with his camera.
I feared that he would take $&@?! ..... er ..... poor quality video.
I feared that he would be distracted by the camera.
I feared that he would drop the camera ...... and injure someone on the ground.



Exactly what I was thinking when I saw this video. I wonder who or why on earth anyone would ever let a student tandem wear their own camera.

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thetreehugger

***I have never allowed a student to video his own jump because:
I feared he would bash me in the face with his camera.
I feared that he would take $&@?! ..... er ..... poor quality video.
I feared that he would be distracted by the camera.
I feared that he would drop the camera ...... and injure someone on the ground.



Exactly what I was thinking when I saw this video. I wonder who or why on earth anyone would ever let a student tandem wear their own camera.

The big argument by students wanting to wear one is that they'll turn it on then forget it. Watching the student in this one shows what really happens. I'm not even talking about the malfunction but before that. He's busy geeking his camera.

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SethInMI

this talk of evidence and video got me thinking, and I wish one of the lawyers was still around to give 2c on this HYPOTHETICAL:

Steve is fun jumping at a boogie. He chats up a tandem pax, sees that she has no video, and decides after landing to get a shot of her landing. He is not in a great position, but gets the approach and landing. The landing is bad, the pax is seriously injured. No one noticed Steve shooting. He puts the camera away and heads to the packing tent.

Now as I understand it, Steve can't delete the video, even as a disinterested person, because he reasonably would think he has evidence that may be required in a lawsuit. Is this true?

Does he need to volunteer that he has it? How long would he have to keep it? Would a lawyer get the entire list of boogie attendees and depose them all to see if any one saw / recorded anything?



Not a lawyer, but in the circumstances you described, I doubt he is under any obligation to keep or report anything. Accidents happen. If he recorded something a reasonable person would construe as evidence to a CRIME, then I think he could be prosecuted for destroying evidence if he deleted the recording. For a CIVIL matter, if he deleted what he saw as nothing of importance, or viewed it as simply a shit happens thing vs gross negligence, you would never get anything punitive imposed on him. Now if a lawyer subpeonas the video for a civil trial, and THEN he destroys it, he would be guilty of destroying evidence. IMO.

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thetreehugger

This whole video, from the description, to the look on the guy's face, is hilarious to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSB9yZp7mUM


But it makes me wonder, where are you allowed to have a wrist mount camera as a tandem? I didn't think that was allowed. (at least not here in Canada.. maybe elsewhere it is?)



Some places put the camera on the student's hand and get a mix of good and bad video. It's argued that it's no less safe than a TI with a hand cam and may even be an improvement over a possible entanglement around the TI's arm which makes him/her unable to deploy the reserve. As far as it being allowed the USPA is very aware of it.

Edit: I personally would be happy to have the student wearing the handcam rather than me so I can focus on flying and safety.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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DJL

***This whole video, from the description, to the look on the guy's face, is hilarious to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSB9yZp7mUM


But it makes me wonder, where are you allowed to have a wrist mount camera as a tandem? I didn't think that was allowed. (at least not here in Canada.. maybe elsewhere it is?)



Some places put the camera on the student's hand and get a mix of good and bad video. It's argued that it's no less safe than a TI with a hand cam and may even be an improvement over a possible entanglement around the TI's arm which makes him/her unable to deploy the reserve. As far as it being allowed the USPA is very aware of it.

Edit: I personally would be happy to have the student wearing the handcam rather than me so I can focus on flying and safety.

Do they still charge tandems for video ? - ie. you can wear a camera but your still paying us for the privilege. You can wear it and get crappy video or let us wear it and get a much better quality result.

I can go into McDonalds and have a burger but bring my own bun. It doesnt stop them charging me full price for the burger (without the bun) that they sell me. Video is a service that the DZ offer.

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skytribe

******This whole video, from the description, to the look on the guy's face, is hilarious to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSB9yZp7mUM


But it makes me wonder, where are you allowed to have a wrist mount camera as a tandem? I didn't think that was allowed. (at least not here in Canada.. maybe elsewhere it is?)



Some places put the camera on the student's hand and get a mix of good and bad video. It's argued that it's no less safe than a TI with a hand cam and may even be an improvement over a possible entanglement around the TI's arm which makes him/her unable to deploy the reserve. As far as it being allowed the USPA is very aware of it.

Edit: I personally would be happy to have the student wearing the handcam rather than me so I can focus on flying and safety.

Do they still charge tandems for video ? - ie. you can wear a camera but your still paying us for the privilege. You can wear it and get crappy video or let us wear it and get a much better quality result.

I can go into McDonalds and have a burger but bring my own bun. It doesnt stop them charging me full price for the burger (without the bun) that they sell me. Video is a service that the DZ offer.

Plus this wasn't the usual tandem one off. This was his third jump which makes it likely that he wants to become an actual skydiver, but he seemed to concentrate on the camera during the entire jump.

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skytribe

******This whole video, from the description, to the look on the guy's face, is hilarious to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSB9yZp7mUM


But it makes me wonder, where are you allowed to have a wrist mount camera as a tandem? I didn't think that was allowed. (at least not here in Canada.. maybe elsewhere it is?)



Some places put the camera on the student's hand and get a mix of good and bad video. It's argued that it's no less safe than a TI with a hand cam and may even be an improvement over a possible entanglement around the TI's arm which makes him/her unable to deploy the reserve. As far as it being allowed the USPA is very aware of it.

Edit: I personally would be happy to have the student wearing the handcam rather than me so I can focus on flying and safety.

Do they still charge tandems for video ? - ie. you can wear a camera but your still paying us for the privilege. You can wear it and get crappy video or let us wear it and get a much better quality result.

I can go into McDonalds and have a burger but bring my own bun. It doesnt stop them charging me full price for the burger (without the bun) that they sell me. Video is a service that the DZ offer.

The DZ provides the camera.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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Shuda had his hand on it but, I can say from personal experience (and this video proves it) that the skyhook is much faster at getting the reserve out than using the reserve handle. Not making any excuses here, just stating a fact.

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