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baronn

BOD Meeting July 2018

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USPA can't win. Punish people for flagrant violations and they get jumped on. Don't hand out enough punishments and they get jumped on.

I think they usually do an okay job. Sometimes they fuck up, but they're only human and they don't have the resources to be everywhere at once.

- Dan G

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Nobody is perfect and nobody is expecting that. However, Bill has been thumbing his nose to the USPA for years and he still has operated 1 of the most successful DZ's on the planet. BTW, I have never been there but, ya can't argue with history. The USPA had options here. Instead of punishing it's members that had already been screwed over, why didn't they send Jay Stokes or Tom Noonan out there to remedyy this fuckup. If nuthin more it wude have been a good PR move. Wude have definitely been a win win.....

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This is something I've been wondering about for years. Has anyone ever figured out the average number of jumps for when someone switches from worrying about everyone else and seeing the importance of just working on their own skills and procedures? The "why yes, I am my brother's keeper" phase seems to kick in somewhere about fifty jumps but I've never figured out when it stops, but have observed it happening over and over again. Maybe 300 jumps? Or is it even jump numbers, maybe its some other factors.

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So Bill Dause should have been given a pass because, why?

And if you didn't read Yuri's missive on facebook, here's a summary: Sure, I let an unrated guy teach tandem certification courses, but only when I was around. I never said he could do it when I was out of the country. I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, that he somehow got his hands on a stack of blank ratings forms with my signature on them.

Yeah, if you think all the parties were innocent in that debacle I have some nice oceanfront property to sell you right next to the DZ in Eloy.

- Dan G

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Sooo, by your definition here, then every DZO that has ever had an incident at their place shude be given the same treatment? We'd run outta DZ's mighty fast. I don't see how Bill had anything to do with this. I am not privy to all the info but, if what you are saying is true, then yeah, this guy deserved the treatment he got. From what I have read, he didn't sign a bunch of blank forms. Personally I can't see why anyone wude do that but, we've seen stranger shit before. Lodi isn't the only DZ to have a tandem incident. If you get nothing more from my posts, just understand that fair and equal treatment shude be fair and equal treatment. This, just like the action directed at Skydive Atlanta reeks of retaliation. That should NOT be the BOD's job.

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Bob_Church

Has anyone ever figured out the average number of jumps for when someone switches from worrying about everyone else and seeing the importance of just working on their own skills and procedures?



I guess the answer would be whenever they become complacent? Other people's mistakes can harm you on the plane, in the sky, under canopy and on the ground. Maybe one should worry about what other people do since their actions can harm you.

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>The "why yes, I am my brother's keeper" phase seems to kick in somewhere about fifty
>jumps but I've never figured out when it stops . . .

Sometimes never. Once you start losing friends to the sport, it's hard to go back to the "who cares about what happens in skydiving, as long as it doesn't happen to me?" approach.

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>Sooo, by your definition here, then every DZO that has ever had an incident at their
>place shude be given the same treatment?

Depends on why it happened and what the reaction to it was.

Was it due to bad luck and/or an oversight, and the response is new procedures/new training for staff/new equipment to try to prevent it in the future? Then no; they've solved their own problem.

Was it due to negligence or bad judgment, and the response is "fucking FAA/USPA doesn't know what they are talking about?" Then perhaps yes; the problem is not going to get fixed on its own.

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skyfox2007

... No, I won't go to a non-member DZ. I'm a paying customer and I want my money's worth. -JD-



Wow, that is a rather radical decision. I suggest that you are possibly eliminating some dropzones where you might jump and have fun in a safe situation.

It just depends on the individual dropzones, which you must judge individually.

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Quote

Sooo, by your definition here, then every DZO that has ever had an incident at their place shude be given the same treatment?



If by "an incident" you mean knowingly allowing an unrated person to teach multiple ratings courses at his DZ and then employing those improperly trained jumpers? Yes, every DZO who has that kind of "incident" should be chucked out of USPA.

- Dan G

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Westerly

*** Has anyone ever figured out the average number of jumps for when someone switches from worrying about everyone else and seeing the importance of just working on their own skills and procedures?



I guess the answer would be whenever they become complacent? Other people's mistakes can harm you on the plane, in the sky, under canopy and on the ground. Maybe one should worry about what other people do since their actions can harm you.

We watch out for each other, we scan each others chest straps and do whatever we can to support and keep each other alive. But that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. The sport gets a lot safer when we start spending more time worrying about our own attitudes and practices than trying to find some way to judge others. In that case, safety becomes an excuse, not a reason.

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DanG

Quote

Sooo, by your definition here, then every DZO that has ever had an incident at their place should be given the same treatment?



If by "an incident" you mean knowingly allowing an unrated person to teach multiple ratings courses at his DZ and then employing those improperly trained jumpers? Yes, every DZO who has that kind of "incident" should be chucked out of USPA.



Never been to Lodi, never met Bill or anything.

But...

After all the info about inadequate training and faked credentials came out, a few "Lodi Alumni" told me flat out that Lodi is Bill's kingdom, and that there is absolutely zero chance that this could have gone on without his knowledge. It was strongly suggested that Bill would have been the one who wanted the course 'shortened' to save time.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Well Chuck, we had to go the a board meeting, many years ago, to GET a rating course at out DZ because several Board members said it would never happen because we were not a GM DZ. Don Yarling said there was no reason, what so ever, we should have had to show up for a meeting to fight for it, it should have just happened if we had the people to attend.

Cost us plane tickets, hotel, and time off work. Watched Danny Page play solitare on his computer during most meetings and at the end, the Chairman at the time, sat there and read the Sunday paper during the voting.

What happened at the next meeting? The BOD decided they would charge an fee (extortion) to non-GM DZ's to hold a rating's course. A fee that would be passed on to those attending the course and making it so expensive, it wouldn't be worth it. A course that benefits individual due paying members. The "right thing" should have been to never charge that fee to non-GM DZ's.

Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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wolfriverjoe

***

Quote

Sooo, by your definition here, then every DZO that has ever had an incident at their place should be given the same treatment?



If by "an incident" you mean knowingly allowing an unrated person to teach multiple ratings courses at his DZ and then employing those improperly trained jumpers? Yes, every DZO who has that kind of "incident" should be chucked out of USPA.



Never been to Lodi, never met Bill or anything.

But...

After all the info about inadequate training and faked credentials came out, a few "Lodi Alumni" told me flat out that Lodi is Bill's kingdom, and that there is absolutely zero chance that this could have gone on without his knowledge. It was strongly suggested that Bill would have been the one who wanted the course 'shortened' to save time.

Ten years ago I would have whole-heartedly agreed with that statement, but Bill is a little older and a little slower and may not have realized exactly what was going on.

Bill didn't "need" more TI's at that time, he had plenty.

And I hear we had another DZ in the area recently with an unrated AFFI jumping and signing students off.... The offending instructor was hammered by USPA, but not the DZO/GM. Way to be consistent!

Ron has a point. He may be a little enthusiastic about how he is talking about it, but we all have seen over the years shenanigans at a DZ that just go completely without any rebuke to the DZO or GM status. The real issue is that such a program of inspections and citations just doesn't carry any weight. The most baddest thing USPA can do to someone is kick them out of the organization and inform the FAA of any violations. As much as we want to self govern our sport, the job of enforcing the FAR's falls to the FAA, not USPA.

Personally, I wish USPA would drop the GM program, or splinter out another organization to do it. Trying to represent both the consumer and seller of a product is impossible, as they have competing interests. Ultimately, the organization has to make compromises to please both sides which means neither side feels truly represented.

People on this thread (especially Mike Mullins and Gary Peek) have been amazingly patient. And bonus points everyone for the thread drift!

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Jump more, post less!

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And You have knowledge of this? Bill says he didn't know. He had other examiners . Can't understand why he would use this unrated guy if they knew his rating was yanked. Again, what's the truth? We may never know. IMO it doesn't make any sense to use an examiner that had his rating taken away. Was this instructor not properly trained? Maybe. A newbie without a lot of jumps under his belt may have reacted the same way. Unlucky? Definitely. I will never defend an undefendable situation. What makes sense is this examiner had his rating yanked, USPA never told anyone but him. He kept going, forging another examiners name without his knowledge and kept collecting for doing it. Clearly none of his students knew. At this point and until I see different, that scenario makes the most sense. Had this incident not happened, it could still be going.

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The facts ar well known about what happened on the incident. Pete Swan viewed the video and gave (what I believe) an honest assessment. Clearly a mishandling of a simple malfunction In tree work, I learned to recognize early when things were going the wrong way. Whenever you got to 3 things working against you, it was time to stop before you broke something or got hurt. Same here. Low time jumper, simple mispacking mistake and finally not the correct action that couldn't be undone. The last 1 was unlucky.
As far as gear goes, plenty of video showing Bill's huge stockpile of brand new Sigma rigs. He retires them early and I'm sure Pete keeps them in top shape. So, it was a simple procedure mistake, a cascading set of unfortunate circumstances and finally some really bad luck. RIP

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normiss

Was there any discussion on membership cards?
Still haven't received mine after being told there was an issue with them this year, nor my PRO sticker.
I miss my PRO sticker, I'm building a layer of them on the card!
:D:D



From what I recall the source of the blank cards was delayed until recently. Make sure you have indicated in the database that you want a card.

No more Pro card with picture. No more stickers. Pro is going to be on the membership card.

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peek

***Was there any discussion on membership cards?
Still haven't received mine after being told there was an issue with them this year, nor my PRO sticker.
I miss my PRO sticker, I'm building a layer of them on the card!
:D:D



From what I recall the source of the blank cards was delayed until recently. Make sure you have indicated in the database that you want a card.


You can always print your card from the uspa site as well if you are dying to have one like me :) (No idea about the pro rating sticker though)

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peek

***Was there any discussion on membership cards?
Still haven't received mine after being told there was an issue with them this year, nor my PRO sticker.
I miss my PRO sticker, I'm building a layer of them on the card!
:D:D



From what I recall the source of the blank cards was delayed until recently. Make sure you have indicated in the database that you want a card.

No more Pro card with picture. No more stickers. Pro is going to be on the membership card.

Something that's handy is that most member DZs have a computer that's online and can check directly with USPA. I showed up once and realized that I still had last year's card but it wasn't a problem and wouldn't have been if I hadn't had any card. They just verified my membership online. Most of the places I jump don't check so I forget to replace it.

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Bob_Church

... Something that's handy is that most member DZs have a computer that's online and can check directly with USPA.



Even better is that, for quite some time now, individual members have been able to create their own personal account (login) at the USPA member database online, and accesss/display their credentials. It no longer requires that the DZ do this as a Group Member. (It also does not require accessing a third-party web site, although you may want to do that.)

So wherever you are, if there is access to the internet you can prove who you are.

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