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chuckakers

Reserve handle - ring or pillow and why?

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I have seen and or know of two out of sequence reserve deployments where the jumper had both cut-away and reserve piloow handles. Both were on their first cut-away and both pulled in the srong order. One ended up with a broken pelvis as a result of a slight downplane on a two out just before impact. The other ended up spinning in on a ball of shit entangled main and reserve. Ended up with TBI, although the skydiver survived. I like the D ring because it removes the possible confusion in a stressful situation.
Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

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fencebuster

Both were on their first cut-away and both pulled in the srong order.



One local DZ rigger requires a newbie with new gear to get a D-ring reserve handle. If the rig already has a pillow, that handle can be saved for later, after a couple hundred jumps minimum.

I certainly wouldn't go as far as having a mandatory D-ring... but I have a grudging respect for his choice of a strong stand on the matter.


(What does the BPA in the UK say? They love to ban things for newbies.)

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When I am talking to our new A license grads, I suggest the D-ring. I can't force them to do anything, but I tell them the stories above and hopefuly they make the right decision. A spinning mal on your back on your first cut-away is not the time to have to figure out which pillow is which.
Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

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Ring for me on both of my rigs. I also recommend rings to all our newer jumpers at the DZ. On my 1st cutaway around jump #1000 I pulled a little lower than I like and was in line twists spinning on my back (1.7 wl). Even though I practice my ep's before every jump I was glad I had the D-ring on that one.

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sundevil777

I like the low profile handle that is the standard height, but sticks out from the webbing much less (see pic). I don't see the advantage to the mini hell wedge compared to this unless there isn't much vertical room on the rig as might be the case for a very short person.



I actually tried the low-profile D on the Infinity and found it to be *too* low for my taste, and I could imagine having to try a little harder than I would like to jam my fingers in there. I'm sure it'd be fine, but again in the worst of circumstances, easier is better. I don't have dainty little hands, either. :D:D
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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Definitely prefer low profile rings. Want to be able to get my hand in it and pull. Of my 22ish cutaways - I had a reserve pillow on one of them. It was very noticeably harder to locate and pull than the d-rings were. I replaced it with a d-ring before I repacked the reserve..

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As far as I know there's no requirement for a D ring for noobs with the BPA. I'll have a look at the Ops manual if I get time later today.

Edited to add: There's no mention of 'D' handle vs Pillow n the equipment section of the ops manual.

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I have two cutaways with different rigs. The first had a D-ring reserve handle and the second had a reserve pillow. I preferred the D-ring, because it was much easier to locate(even though I was spinning on my back and couldn't see it at all.) Also, the pillow was quite hard to peel from the velcro. I didn't have an RSL for both cutaways and for the second one (broken lines, spinning, but not that fast) it took quite a while to get the reserve out. Also, I want my reserve handle to look and feel different from my cutaway pillow. My next rig will have a metal D-ring handle.


Sorry for my bad English...

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sundevil777

Some even use a D-ring for the cutaway, but having the same look and feel is a drawback for dual D-ring handles.



Likewise, why is it not considered a drawback to have the same look and feel with two pillow handles? Has anyone ever in the excitement of a malfunction, accidentally pulled their reserve pillow first, when they meant to pull their cut-away pillow? (I saw message #26 after I posted this!)

Seems to me that having two completely different handles helps you identify the correct one. Isn't that why they alter the shape of different aircraft controls, so that pilots can identify the correct knob/handle by feel alone?

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Sanjak

Seems to me that having two completely different handles helps you identify the correct one. Isn't that why they alter the shape of different aircraft controls, so that pilots can identify the correct knob/handle by feel alone?



I would be hoping that I've drilled my EPs in so well that muscle memory would handle the load.. thinking, looking and figuring things out in a high stress situation takes valuable seconds.

You have a point though. I remember watching a documentary on the three mile island accident in which ambiguous controls led to confusion as to which instrument to adjust. Similarly operator difficulties interpreting instrumentation under stress led to a plane crashing at East Midlands Airport a number of years ago.. The point being there's a lot of history of people making mistakes in high-stress situations due to either changes in the kit they were operating or ambiguities in what equipment to operate. :)

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dragon2

***I very often have to climb out and around the door onto the camera step and I didn't fancy snagging a D handle on the airframe dumping my reserve over the tail of the aircraft, so I opted for a pillow.



Ring. Although I like the loop type too. All I ever do is climb around on camera steps, no reason at all to change to a pillow IMO

Same here. 90% of my last 1500 jumps have been camera, and that involves climbing about on several different kinds of aircraft. I use a D-handle and no problems.

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this is great discussion - lots to think about.

I have a pillow on my current rig, and that's what I visualize and practice for. As a rigger, I have lots of opportunities to pull handles, albeit on the ground, and I have found that because the pillow is what's in *my* mind, that's easiest for *me* to locate and pull. When I am puling handles on rigs that have metal d-rings, my hand tends to slip off it, because I'm not in the habit of hooking a thumb. The very-low-profile d-rings are even worse, and in one case, though I don't have particularly fat fingers, there was barely enough space between the harness and the edge of the handle to get a finger through the space. I recommended that customer practice gripping that handle a LOT before his next jump, and consider replacing it with one that's a little easier to grab.

My only cutaway/reserve ride was on a rig with a big metal handle. I don't recall having any trouble at all finding and pulling that handle, but it was years ago, and not a violent malfunction. I will certainly add to my mental EP's, the possibility that my hand slips off the ripcord pillow after I chop, and I need to go hunting...

Stay safe, y'all!

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The very-low-profile d-rings are even worse, and in one case, though I don't have particularly fat fingers, there was barely enough space between the harness and the edge of the handle to get a finger through the space.



I'm surprised by this reaction. Was it for the type of handle I showed in post #7?

I've used mine and had no problem at all, had a grip on it instantly, without any need to hunt for it in general or trouble getting the thumb through. When you say getting a finger through, you do mean thumb, correct?
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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I'm a bit surprised (well, not really) about the poll results given that a quick glance around any of the larger DZs I've been to in my neck of the woods the visual evidence is flipped. 2/3 to 3/4 pillows. Interesting I suppose.

I have a pillow fwiw.

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chuckakers

I've had many conversations about this one with responses ranging from thoughtful to ridiculous.

Why did you choose the type of reserve handle you use, and why?

Safety, peer pressure, cool factor, fashion - nothing is off limits.

Go.



I say bring back the Blast Handle.
Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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I had double pillows on all my rigs so far.
This was recommended by the experienced freeflyers at my DZ (D ring being too much of a snag hazard for freeflying in their opinion), so I went with it and trained my EPs extensively.
I now realize that a D handle would certainly work as well, but since I had two good reserve rides with a pillow handle, I don't see a reason to go back.

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We all understand you like to be a tool here.
Please please please do not take that approach to safety, gear, and advice.
Being safe in our sport is not a joke.
People die.
Hopefully not because you told them they needed a "cool" handle.
That's just not cool.
>:(

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normiss

We all understand you like to be a tool here.
Please please please do not take that approach to safety, gear, and advice.
Being safe in our sport is not a joke.
People die.
Hopefully not because you told them they needed a "cool" handle.
That's just not cool.
>:(



There are a lot of people in the sport who make choices based on a perceived cool factor. That will probably never change, but there is a way to combat it. I call it the fullface factor.

Remember when all the cool kids jumped without helmets or with leather frap hats at the most because all the hard helmets of the day were perceived as looking stupid? When I started in the mid 80's the hard-shell choices were pretty much pro-tecs, hockey helmets, or motorcycle helmets - none of which had a cool factor. The cool kids went without.

Then along came shit hot 4-way with booties and knee shots to the face and the fullface helmet was born out of necessity. As soon as folks saw the hottest skydivers on the DZ wearing them, they started flying off the shelf and now they are the standard in the sport - even among many freeflyers.

If we want to promote good choices, just get the badass skydivers to embrace the right stuff and the vain will follow - in theory, anyway.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Was it for the type of handle I showed in post #7?



That's hard to say without seeing it in its pocket. There's one manufacturer who is making super-mini d-rings, or something like that, I'm pretty sure it's one of those. Can't remember, and I'm not at that DZ anymore, SOOO....

my larger point was that it's a highly individual choice.

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betzilla

Quote

Was it for the type of handle I showed in post #7?



That's hard to say without seeing it in its pocket. There's one manufacturer who is making super-mini d-rings, or something like that, I'm pretty sure it's one of those. Can't remember, and I'm not at that DZ anymore, SOOO....

my larger point was that it's a highly individual choice.



Picture of mine in the pocket. Plenty of room to get hold of it, I think and as I've found from use.

[inline handle_in_pocket2.jpg]
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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Ring.
Many reasons for the ring, and not even a single one for the pillow. ( except the cool factor, but I don't really care about that )

The reasons for my choice.
1. Easier to grab and pull.
2. Once the pillow is made, it's impossible to inspect the swage at the end of the reserve cable.
3. Just by touching you can determine whether you have cutaway or reserve handle in your hand. ( for those 1:1 000 000 occasion when your buddy's canopy is all around you, your harness is twisted and all you have left is to pull your reserve to add more fabric to the mess)
4. A well made pocket for the ring handle doesn't depend on the quality of the Velcro to keep the handle in place( not saying that you should jump with bad Velcro)
5. Almost all CReW dogs I've seen have ring reserve handles. It's for a reason. If it was a "snag" potential, they would've gone for pillows.
6. I've pulled more than 4000 reserve handles in my life- check again my reason #1
7. Grabbing a pillow handle with broken fingers will be challenging.
8. One of the big gear manufacturers will not make you a pillow handle, even if you especially ask for it.
9. My boss doesn't like pillow reserve handles B|

The following is not meant to be criticism to anyone.

Have you ever tried to pull your reserve handle with the right hand?
Have you ever tried to pull your reserve handle without using your fingers?

If NOT, you should ;)

ETA: #9

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

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Chuck I now jump a fabric covered ring system from Parachute de France and I like it. I've also previously jumped pillows. I have 6 cutaways with pillows and 3 with rings.........

I went for the ring because I like the ability to hook into it.

And by the way my cutaway is the same type of handle. Suits me.

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