Tailgates

[fcajump 157]

Wanted to break this out to fish for feedback...

Background (for those reading along, like me...)

pchapman

Basically a tailgate holds the brake lines together temporarily, for a better controlled opening with less lineover potential, holding them up near the canopy, by using an elastic band and a dacron tab mounted to a line. Normally used without a slider but can be used with one, and can be mounted on the slider too (hence the connection to to the 'holding the slider in place' stuff in this thread). One video that shows some of the variations fairly clearly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz_2hjEyUGM

I would be interested in adding one of these to my main attached to the slider, but having never used one and not connected to the BASE community, I'm curious to know what unintended consequences users might be aware of...

Do they add to the snivel?
Has anyone gotten one that didn't release?
If you were looking over my shoulder when I'm stowing one where you'd say "wait a sec... you really don't want to do that... here, lemme show ya"
When would you never think of using it? (planned low hop-n-pop?)
What question did I miss?

Tell me your stories please...

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[BurbleBoi 11]

There are some (tandem) canopies that require stowing a bight of excess brake line above the slider on rubber bands attached to the inside rear suspension lines.

If your fear is a lineover, consider that when a certain video of intentionally packed malfunctions was being produced, they had an incredibly difficult time trying to force a lineover malfunction because they clear themselves pretty much always. They wound up actually sewing the brake line to the nose to achieve the mal for the video.

As a packer for several seasons, I had exactly one customer come to me with a band on their slider asking me to stow brake line on it. It was a Sabre1. I didn’t argue, but I also jump one and take other steps to ensure a soft opening...I don’t feel like adding complexity to a system makes it any safer or less prone to malfunction.

Slider down/off BASE is a different environment than skydiving.

Just ignore me.

[LeeroyJenkins 2]

fcajump

Wanted to break this out to fish for feedback...

Background (for those reading along, like me...)
*** Basically a tailgate holds the brake lines together temporarily, for a better controlled opening with less lineover potential, holding them up near the canopy, by using an elastic band and a dacron tab mounted to a line. Normally used without a slider but can be used with one, and can be mounted on the slider too (hence the connection to to the 'holding the slider in place' stuff in this thread). One video that shows some of the variations fairly clearly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz_2hjEyUGM

I would be interested in adding one of these to my main attached to the slider, but having never used one and not connected to the BASE community, I'm curious to know what unintended consequences users might be aware of...

1. Do they add to the snivel?
2. Has anyone gotten one that didn't release?
3. If you were looking over my shoulder when I'm stowing one where you'd say "wait a sec... you really don't want to do that... here, lemme show ya"
4. When would you never think of using it? (planned low hop-n-pop?)
5. What question did I miss?

Tell me your stories please...

JW

I numbered your questions to make it easier.

1. No not really. Snappy openings are part of BASE.

2. People have gotten them that didn't release/took too long to release. This has only really been seen on slider off objects with static line or pilot chute assist.

3. No, unless you were rapping the rubber band 1,000,000 times.

4. I use mine on hop and pops when I take my BASE canopy out of the plane.

5. umm, how you would install it on a slider? I dono, ask your rigger.


Tailgates are designed to control your control lines. The inner C-D lines and the break lines go inside the tailgate. I suggested it in the other thread as a way to prevent the slider from coming out before the canopy is expanding. In my opinion snaps would work better and be more simple.

[fcajump 157]

LeeroyJenkins

1. Do they add to the snivel?
2. Has anyone gotten one that didn't release?
3. If you were looking over my shoulder when I'm stowing one where you'd say "wait a sec... you really don't want to do that... here, lemme show ya"
4. When would you never think of using it? (planned low hop-n-pop?)
5. What question did I miss?

Tell me your stories please...

JW

I numbered your questions to make it easier.

1. No not really. Snappy openings are part of BASE.

2. People have gotten them that didn't release/took too long to release. This has only really been seen on slider off objects with static line or pilot chute assist.

3. No, unless you were rapping the rubber band 1,000,000 times.

4. I use mine on hop and pops when I take my BASE canopy out of the plane.

5. umm, how you would install it on a slider? I dono, ask your rigger.


Tailgates are designed to control your control lines. The inner C-D lines and the break lines go inside the tailgate. I suggested it in the other thread as a way to prevent the slider from coming out before the canopy is expanding. In my opinion snaps would work better and be more simple.

1. understood... my main is a spectre (800' snivel is normal) my motivation is rooted in thinking of how to minimize the chance of a slider induced hard opening (whether you argue that they get loose/lower during packing, or due to the random chaos of opening) Spectres, despite their normal opening reputation are included in the canopies that have hurt jumpers on opening.

2-4 OK, thanks for that.
5 For me, not a problem after refering to the video provided above. For readers who are not riggers, consult a rigger.

Anyone else work with these things want to add more data-points?

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[fcajump 157]

Quote

There are some (tandem) canopies that require stowing a bight of excess brake line above the slider on rubber bands attached to the inside rear suspension lines.

Yep, my Set400 did that, but I think it was only to ensure the excess brakeline on the inner line didn't do anything of concern during the chaos of deployment. Though maybe a tailgate would have helped ensure that both sides released at the same time. (not that I ever noted an issue with that, just noted the potential)

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[LeeroyJenkins 2]

I've been slammed by a specter on a H&P, it happens.

I've thought about putting a different slider on my specter since I use it mostly for wing suiting. Maybe ill stick my base one on there with a tailgate and see how it works.

[base283 0]

fcajump

but having never used one and not connected to the BASE community, I'm curious to know what unintended consequences users might be aware of...

Do they add to the snivel?
Has anyone gotten one that didn't release?
If you were looking over my shoulder when I'm stowing one where you'd say "wait a sec... you really don't want to do that... here, lemme show ya"
When would you never think of using it? (planned low hop-n-pop?)
What question did I miss?
Tell me your stories please...
JW

I am a long time BASEr, BASE Instructor, Mentor and Rigger.

In the context of your question, I think the knowledge that you are seeking is about "slider control". Check out this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nciajWdFd9c about "Direct slider control" and "Indirect slider control".

Tailgates and the different versions of the slidergate are for reducing steeringlineovers. This is not a common problem slider up.
I personally would not jump the slidergate shown in the OP video. There is a possibility of the modification getting caught in the cascades.
I see that a common myth is reposted on this thread. That BASE canopies/pack jobs open faster (Snappy openings are part of BASE). A good packer can control the opening speed to a large extent. If one wants snappy openings, That is achievable. Same for comfortable openings or snivels. Getting to that level of packing skills can be a challenge but it is doable.
If anyone wants to carry the discussion of Slider control or/and tailgates, I would be glad to impart my knowledge.
Take care,
space

[fcajump 157]

Thanks for that... Yes its slider control (concept not necessarily industry term... yet...) we're after.

For me (having not used either technique) of a slider attached tail gate is it would seem less likely prone to hangup on subterm h&p.
Also concerned about wear on the slider fabric of constant rubberband stowage....

Any problems w either of these issues using slider control bands?

Jw

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[base283 0]

"For me (having not used either technique) of a slider attached tail gate is it would seem less likely prone to hangup on subterm h&p."

Though a hangup is a hang up, which hang up do you mean? The tailgate on the descending slider hanging up in the cascades (an added possibililty), or not releasing due to subterm deployments (highly unlikely)?

Remember that gates are for lineover risk reduction.
Slider Controls are for keeping the slider up against the slider stops during extraction of the canopy in the deployment sequence reducing the chance of an incapacitating opening shock.

The rubberbands wear out way faster than the material. I have never seen or heard of the slider being damaged by repeated use of the Direct Control Method.
The prioritization of risks places this scenario way down from the scenario of an incapacitating opening.
Take care,
space

[LeeroyJenkins 2]

base283

***
but having never used one and not connected to the BASE community, I'm curious to know what unintended consequences users might be aware of...

Do they add to the snivel?
Has anyone gotten one that didn't release?
If you were looking over my shoulder when I'm stowing one where you'd say "wait a sec... you really don't want to do that... here, lemme show ya"
When would you never think of using it? (planned low hop-n-pop?)
What question did I miss?
Tell me your stories please...
JW

I am a long time BASEr, BASE Instructor, Mentor and Rigger.

In the context of your question, I think the knowledge that you are seeking is about "slider control". Check out this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nciajWdFd9c about "Direct slider control" and "Indirect slider control".

Tailgates and the different versions of the slidergate are for reducing steeringlineovers. This is not a common problem slider up.
I personally would not jump the slidergate shown in the OP video. There is a possibility of the modification getting caught in the cascades.
I see that a common myth is reposted on this thread. That BASE canopies/pack jobs open faster (Snappy openings are part of BASE). A good packer can control the opening speed to a large extent. If one wants snappy openings, That is achievable. Same for comfortable openings or snivels. Getting to that level of packing skills can be a challenge but it is doable.
If anyone wants to carry the discussion of Slider control or/and tailgates, I would be glad to impart my knowledge.
Take care,
space


Great point. Direct slider control would be easier and work better in the skydiving environment.

[base283 0]

Not @ fcajump,
Tailgates are to reduce the chances of lineovers and to promote a nose first opening. This implementation has only a small effect on opening speed. Slider control, has a much bigger effect on opening speed. Here is a BASE video discussing Slider control. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nciajWdFd9c.
Take care,
space

[fcajump 157]

base283

Though a hangup is a hang up, which hang up do you mean?
The rubberbands wear out way faster than the material. I have never seen or heard of the slider being damaged by repeated use of the Direct Control Method.
The prioritization of risks places this scenario way down from the scenario of an incapacitating opening.

The hangups to which I refer would be non-release or slow release. 1/2 my jumps are H&P's and usually below 3'k (nothing on BASE folks, but then I've always be a chickin-sh!t skydiver)

In (mentally) comparing banding the slider to a 'C' attach point vs banding it (by use of an tacked-on tailgate) to the C/D/brake lines, it seems to me that either method would act to keep the slider up but that the canopy/lines spread would ensure that the tailgate disengages at that point.

As to banding to the C attach point (Slider Control), has your experience been only with mesh sliders, or with solid (skydiving) sliders?

Several have mentioned snaps, not familiar with where they're used... Can someone post video/manual/pics/links pointing to examples?

Thanks,
JW

PS - I'm NOT set on one method or another, mostly trying to get/keep the discussion going for this off-label use.

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[LeeroyJenkins 2]

fcajump

***
Though a hangup is a hang up, which hang up do you mean?
The rubberbands wear out way faster than the material. I have never seen or heard of the slider being damaged by repeated use of the Direct Control Method.
The prioritization of risks places this scenario way down from the scenario of an incapacitating opening.

The hangups to which I refer would be non-release or slow release. 1/2 my jumps are H&P's and usually below 3'k (nothing on BASE folks, but then I've always be a chickin-sh!t skydiver)

In (mentally) comparing banding the slider to a 'C' attach point vs banding it (by use of an tacked-on tailgate) to the C/D/brake lines, it seems to me that either method would act to keep the slider up but that the canopy/lines spread would ensure that the tailgate disengages at that point.

As to banding to the C attach point (Slider Control), has your experience been only with mesh sliders, or with solid (skydiving) sliders?

Several have mentioned snaps, not familiar with where they're used... Can someone post video/manual/pics/links pointing to examples?

Thanks,
JW

PS - I'm NOT set on one method or another, mostly trying to get/keep the discussion going for this off-label use.

Found a nice video of the late Jessica Edgeington packing her comp vilo. it shows the snaps. https://youtu.be/wShSFIHa_LU?t=4m55s

[base283 0]

"PS - I'm NOT set on one method or another, mostly trying to get/keep the discussion going for this off-label use."
A method for what exactly? What are you trying to address?
I saw a video before, of a pilot chute assist from a low jump (slider down) normal tailgate, hang up. Of the 4 reported, they were all pilot chute assist deployment. No freefall reports of a hang up.
As for slider types, I have done it on all types.
A tailgate is used to promote a nose first opening and linover risk reduction. A valuable tool if jumping slider down for some. Slider up, you introduce the possibility of the tailgate on the slider getting hung up in the cascades. I would not jump that setup on a BASE rig.
The slider tailgate doesn't hold the slider in place because canopy slump (aka, centercell extraction). The relationship of the slider to sliderstops is not as static and the lines still can travel through the slider and tailgate. I hope this helps. Let me know if what I write is unclear please.
Take care,
space

[LeeroyJenkins 2]

base283

"PS - I'm NOT set on one method or another, mostly trying to get/keep the discussion going for this off-label use."
A method for what exactly? What are you trying to address?
I saw a video before, of a pilot chute assist from a low jump (slider down) normal tailgate, hang up. Of the 4 reported, they were all pilot chute assist deployment. No freefall reports of a hang up.
As for slider types, I have done it on all types.
A tailgate is used to promote a nose first opening and linover risk reduction. A valuable tool if jumping slider down for some. Slider up, you introduce the possibility of the tailgate on the slider getting hung up in the cascades. I would not jump that setup on a BASE rig.
The slider tailgate doesn't hold the slider in place because canopy slump (aka, centercell extraction). The relationship of the slider to sliderstops is not as static and the lines still can travel through the slider and tailgate. I hope this helps. Let me know if what I write is unclear please.
Take care,
space

I take it you are against canopies coming with tailgates attached to the slider?


As for the person you replied to he is talking about controlling the slider, and which method would work best. I personally believe the snap method would be the best for skydiving.

[fcajump 157]

base283

"PS - I'm NOT set on one method or another, mostly trying to get/keep the discussion going for this off-label use."
A method for what exactly? What are you trying to address?

Space,

Thanks for your input.

The question at hand is:
Is there a simple, reliable method to help ensure that the slider will remain high and in place to restrict the opening both during packing and the chaos of opening (including the reported occurance of a slider dropping through the burble of the jumper), that would be applicable/effective in both terminal and sub-terminal deployments on a skydiving main canopy?

BASE jumpers suggested that there might be solutions from that side of the world that could improve the freefall equipment. (all of which is new to me... so I'm askin...)

Some suggested that a slider attached tailgate might work, others mentioned stowing the slider on the center 'C' lines and others brought snaps to my attention (OK, the comp velo is not BASE, but still outside my toolbox and I don't know if BASE uses anything similar or not.) Someone also suggested magnets at the slider stops and slider, but personally I'm not sure that more magnets on the rig (in addition to some people having them on riser covers, post-deployment slider stowage, D-bags and for all I know holding the jockstrap on) in the chaos of opening couldn't cause more issues, so I'm personally discounting that option...

I have been told that BASE jumpers use the tailgate to avoid lineovers during slider down deployments (not what we're addressing here), but I've also been introduced to some that attach it to their slider which implies using it slider up... which lead to the question of their applicability here...

I get your notion that as a slider attached tailgate wrapped around the lines would be able to slide down the lines too easilly to avoid the problem being considered... though it seems to me the friction between the tailgate and suspension lines would keep it up until canopy expansion clears it... dunno.

I wouldn't mind trying the bite of slider in a stowe band at the center 'C' lines, just wasn't sure if that would wear holes in the slider as the rubber can be abrasive over time.

As to snaps, I'm willing to think on that too, but have only seen the one video on the comp velo.

And of course, anything that would be designed to retard the slider might have the unintended consequence of keeping it up there too long for a low H&P.

While the occurance of exceptionally hard openings is rare and often the cause is hard to prove, the impact on the jumper is very bad (fatal in some cases) and it seems to me that collectively we should be able to reduce the chances.

Hence my desire to get y'alls opinions, experiences, etc.

Just my $.02
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[base283 0]

I am against tailgates being installed on the slider. I have seen quite a few skydiving mals due to the drawstring of the slider getting hung up in the cascades. The tailgate installed on a slider would be apt to the same malfunction.
Take care,
space

[fcajump 157]

base283

I am against tailgates being installed on the slider. I have seen quite a few skydiving mals due to the drawstring of the slider getting hung up in the cascades. The tailgate installed on a slider would be apt to the same malfunction.
Take care,
space

Fair enough.

I'm not 100% comfortable with the older style drawstrings on my Spectre for exactly that potential (though I've not seen it happen) and note that PD has since changed the design to be less likely to hang up.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[base283 0]

"The question at hand is:
Is there a simple, reliable method to help ensure that the slider will remain high and in place to restrict the opening both during packing and the chaos of opening (including the reported occurance of a slider dropping through the burble of the jumper), that would be applicable/effective in both terminal and sub-terminal deployments on a skydiving main canopy?"

1. Direct Slider control is the best method I have seen to reduce the risk of the slider being out of position during deployment.

2. Tailgates are only to promote nose first openings and reduce the risk of lineovers. Which are rare slider up (we have the technology to clear lineovers, slider up or down). The slider will do a lot more to reduce lineovers than a tailgate.
A tailgate on the slider doesn't control the slider.
Many of us use the original "slidergate" concept. That is both center C-lines attachment points or tailgate ports with rubber bands that group the inner C and D lines all steering lines all together. The slider is held in the rubber bands and when the slider is released, it releases the grouped lines.
I could draw you diagram if you want.
Take care,
space
edited to add: A magnet or snap at the apex of the slider to the bottomskin would work but I am not sure of its lifespan. Magnets to be strong enough for this purpose would have to be pretty strong and could cause material damage when connecting them. Snaps could have similar problems when releasing. Maybe a tab system could work better for Direct slider control.

[LeeroyJenkins 2]

fcajump

*** I am against tailgates being installed on the slider. I have seen quite a few skydiving mals due to the drawstring of the slider getting hung up in the cascades. The tailgate installed on a slider would be apt to the same malfunction.
Take care,
space

Fair enough.

I'm not 100% comfortable with the older style drawstrings on my Spectre for exactly that potential (though I've not seen it happen) and note that PD has since changed the design to be less likely to hang up.

JW

The only time I have seen snaps in person was on a PD Peregrine, which is for sub-terminal openings only.

[fcajump 157]

base283

Many of us use the original "slidergate" concept. That is both center C-lines attachment points or tailgate ports with rubber bands that group the inner C and D lines all steering lines all together. The slider is held in the rubber bands and when the slider is released, it releases the grouped lines.
I could draw you diagram if you want.

If you could (or pics if they're clear), I'd like to see that.
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[fcajump 157]

LeeroyJenkins

The only time I have seen snaps in person was on a PD Peregrine, which is for sub-terminal openings only.

I'm kinda hoping that PD (and any other canopy mfgs) will jump in here... we'll see.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[Jaysus 1]

Quote

As for the person you replied to he is talking about controlling the slider, and which method would work best. I personally believe the snap method would be the best for skydiving.

In theory the snaps are for sure a good thing, because they force you to place the slider correctly during packing.
But in practice they won't avoid hard openings, at least not to a 100%. A friend of mine just had a hard opening like 1 week ago on a Velo with snaps ( and he used the snaps, normal Slider Setup, no RDS ).

Also here is a Tip Tuesday Video from PD about snaps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjHuCmeFyrM

[base283 0]

Working on it. It is the rainy season and I can´t repack inside my apartment.

[kleggo 143]

fcajump

***"

The question at hand is:
Is there a simple, reliable method to help ensure that the slider will remain high and in place to restrict the opening both during packing and the chaos of opening (including the reported occurance of a slider dropping through the burble of the jumper), that would be applicable/effective in both terminal and sub-terminal deployments on a skydiving main canopy?


others mentioned stowing the slider on the center 'C' lines
JW

I've had good luck with the slider constrained by a rubber band installed on a C line bottom skin attachment point.
Pull the slider "apex" to the rubber band, wrap it around a bit of fabric and you are good to go. Two - three wraps for Terminal, fewer wraps for H&P.
That is what we call Direct Slider Control

Cheers

Craig