First rig purchase - too big?

[benlangfeld 1]

Hello all! I'm looking for a little advice on my first rig purchase after having just received my A license.

I weigh approximately 75kg / 165lbs out of the shower. Through AFF and up to jump #20 I jumped a typical 260sqft student rig. Obviously I was desperate to get good enough to move off this, mostly because it was heavy and uncomfortable in the aircraft. Jumps #21-#25 I used a 230sqft main though I'm not sure what model; the container was slightly smaller, but the main difference was my landings immediately got better with the more powerful flare, so I enjoyed this change. Jumps #26 and #27 were with a 210sqft main, which I think was a Sabre2, but I won't know for sure until I check this weekend; this was in a much more modern Wings Classic articulated container with boat-loads of leg padding and I sort of fell in love with it, though I made mistakes with my concern that the smaller canopy would sink more, coming in for landing on a tighter pattern and had trouble landing in the area on both jumps, but I figure it just takes some getting used to and more careful observation of ground speed higher up to adjust the pattern properly.

At these numbers, this last rig is at approximately a 0.88 wing loading. My instructor is convinced that eventually I'll want to get down to 135 or 150, and that by B-license time I'll be looking for a 170 (1.09). I hear most people talking about wanting to downsize as much as possible.

My last landing scared me a little because I flared a little too hard (being used to flying a jumbo for 20 jumps) and almost stalled the canopy at about 10ft, let the toggles up just a little and flared again for a graceless but painless landing, which I realise was more about luck than skill. I have previously broken my femur skiing when I failed to recognise the effects of getting tired at the end of the day without letting up on speed and I have no interest in repeating the experience. I know that mistakes happen regardless of skill, generally in a very short time, and I would like to fly a canopy that is just fun enough while tolerating these mistakes and injuring at most my ego, which I can cope with. I also figure the photography maxim (a good photographer can make a masterpiece with a disposable camera, a novice can make a mess with a 5D) applies similarly, and that piloting skill is probably a bigger factor in performance than the canopy itself.

All that said, my question is this: is my instructor right? If I were to buy this rig, or one like it, would I hate it after 20 more jumps and regret the purchase, on the fast track to a 150sqft canopy like everyone else, or is it a good medium term investment? Compared to renting, I think I would break even in approximately 180 jumps, and I believe the container would tolerate downsizing from the 210 to a 190. My hope is that this strategy would last me through to ~300-400 jumps, at which point I could consider buying a brand new rig and maybe downsizing a little further to a 170/150. I figure in terms of container size/weight I can make up for this size by eventually buying a Pulse.

What do you think? Am I being too conservative? What are the downsides to flying a canopy more lightly loaded than most people seem to want? What will I miss out on by flying something relatively large?

[wmw999 2,121]

First thing to consider is that you can generally downsize one size in the same container. Lightly-loaded canopies are lighter, less bulky, and easier to pack. A bigger container accommodates a larger reserve; one rarely regrets having a larger canopy on reserve rides.

I just upsized from a 135 to a 150; I'm getting older, so it seemed smart. I don't have to run nearly as hard on no and low-wind days, which I like. I'm not awesome at pinpoint depth perception, so always felt free to PLF anyway.

You'll have some people tell you it's unsafe to jump something big. Bullshit, outside some fairly specific circumstances. Many people (BASE, accuracy, older jumpers) jump lower wingloadings. All canopies were bigger relative to the jumpers 30+ years ago. They were different planforms, too, so equivalence isn't exact, but it's not apples and oranges, either.

However, you'll have to pay a little more attention to where you are in the landing stack, because you sink slower. But a larger canopy will forgive more mistakes, which means you can explore the outside of your canopy's performance envelope more safely. If you want to.

Just some thoughts.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[SethInMI 145]

I think your instructor is right with what a jumper like you will probably be flying in the future. I weigh about what you do, and the progression he outlined is about what I did.

1st canopy bought at 45 jumps: 7 cell 190
2nd canopy at ~100 jumps: Sabre 2 170.
3rd canopy at ~250 jumps: Sabre 2 150.
4th canopy at ~400 jumps: Sabre 2 135.
I have about 500 jumps now.
(note all these canopies I bought used, and sold for about the same price I bought them for. I also bought my 1st container used, and sold it for about what I bought it for too)

A lot of what you want from a parachute flight is your personality. You mention skiing, and skiing fast enough to break a leg. I ski, my style isl my skis don't leave the snow (no jumps) unless I crash, but I do like the speed, the wind in my face, the burn in the leg pushing hard in a turn.

Parachute flight is like that, each smaller canopy is just a bit faster, turns a bit more readily, lands more "fun". It also helps that they are smaller, making them easier to pack, and making your container lighter on your back.

You mention break even vs. renting at 180 jumps. Don't look at it that way. If you get a decent price on a used rig, it will be able to be sold for close to what you bought it for, so it is an investment that will immediately save you $ vs. renting. So if the system you are looking for is priced right and fits right, I say get it, but you may find in a year or two wanting a smaller rig. No problem, just sell the one you have and get another one.

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

[rjklein4470 23]

I would buy a used rig for your first. There are several complete systems in the classifieds. Jump the shit out of it, then get what you want.

[benlangfeld 1]

I absolutely intend to buy a used rig. The question is really whether I should buy this one now, or wait another 25-50 jumps and buy a smaller one.

[benlangfeld 1]

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but you may find in a year or two wanting a smaller rig. No problem, just sell the one you have and get another one.

I fully expect that, and my concern is really just it being a shorter period than that. If it's going to take only 6 months to be desperate to downsize, maybe hanging on and renting is better. If I'm still going to be enjoying it in a year or two, it's probably worth it.

[benlangfeld 1]

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You'll have some people tell you it's unsafe to jump something big. Bullshit, outside some fairly specific circumstances.

I'm curious, what circumstances would those be, and in what way would it be unsafe?

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But a larger canopy will forgive more mistakes, which means you can explore the outside of your canopy's performance envelope more safely.

That's attractive to me. Being able to play with it and still have a good chance of making it through the weekend sounds just about ideal. I don't want to be getting too close to the canopy's tolerance for foolishness.

[SethInMI 145]

benlangfeld

I'm curious, what circumstances would those be, and in what way would it be unsafe?

Commonly this would refer to the fact that a more lightly loaded canopy has a lower forward speed. If you end up "short" when there is a strong wind that is close to or higher than the speed of your canopy, you will not make the landing area. This would really be "unsafe" if you were at a DZ that did not have outs if you were short of the DZ (over a lake, dense woods, the ocean, etc).

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

[benlangfeld 1]

Ah, I see. I had one landing on the edge of a taxiway in these circumstances (the 260sqft student rig), almost completely vertical. I scratched the last jump of the day because Murphy says it would have been worse, not better.

[kat00 11]

benlangfeld

I absolutely intend to buy a used rig. The question is really whether I should buy this one now, or wait another 25-50 jumps and buy a smaller one.

Don't rush to downsize. I've only been in the sport 8 months and 175 jumps but I've already seen my fair share of incidents and heard stories about downsizing too fast. I would take a look at Brian Germain's downsize charts. You will likely go to a smaller parachute yes but take your time, it's not a race.

Also, look at what you want to do with skydiving. If you want to become a wingsuiter you might want to keep with a more docile and lower wingloading which means not downsizing so fast. If you want to become a swooper then start taking some canopy coaching. If you are just having fun then there is no rule that you have to downsize.

[benlangfeld 1]

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I've only been in the sport 8 months and 175 jumps but I've already seen my fair share of incidents and heard stories about downsizing too fast.

I've only been in the sport 2 months and already seen one leg injury including an ambulance ride and one "landing" into the side of a house.

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I would take a look at Brian Germain's downsize charts.

For anyone else reading, I found those at http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf. Very interesting, and seems to confirm that a 190 is reasonable around B license time.

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If you want to become a swooper then start taking some canopy coaching.

I'll rule out very little at this stage, but swooping is something that is almost certainly not on the cards. That's for people far bolder than I; I won't take my chances.

[wmw999 2,121]

You're in Brazil; the available gear might dictate what you get, since the market isn't as big there.

A used rig that you use for 50 jumps and sell for $500 less than you paid for it will have saved you money; gear rental is FAR more than $10/jump, and it's likely that you'll re-sell for closer to your purchase price than $500 if it was used.

New gear should be bought when you're going to be jumping the same thing for long enough to overcome the roughly $1500-$2000 devaluation of used vs. new (no one ever sells new gear that they bought and then quit skydiving for anything close to the original purchase price).

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[degeneration 5]

wmw999

(no one ever sells new gear that they bought and then quit skydiving for anything close to the original purchase price).

*ahem* not true.

I bought a brand new Wings/Smart/Pilot quite a few years ago, did approx 300 jumps on it, sold it 3 or so years later for £79.70 MORE than I paid for it.

I had rising gear prices and changing £/$ exchange rates to thank for that.

Of course, my next set of kit cost a lot more than that, but that's not the point!

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[HPC 7]

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(no one ever sells new gear that they bought and then quit skydiving for anything close to the original purchase price).

But it's not that they're not trying. Probably the biggest reason for all of the closet queens out there.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[HPC 7]

Leave it to a Brit to spoil things!😐

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[Deimian 43]

benlangfeld

What do you think? Am I being too conservative?

There is not such a thing as "too conservative". If you don't feel comfortable flying something small, don't do it. I have a friend with more than 500 jumps that is still jumping the canopy he bought with 40 jumps. And enjoying it. I respect the shit out of him because of his decision of not following the downsizing trend just to be cool. Think about what you want, not on what everyone else does.

benlangfeld

What are the downsides to flying a canopy more lightly loaded than most people seem to want?

Less forward speed on windy days. That's about it.

benlangfeld

What will I miss out on by flying something relatively large?

A tiny bit more work for packing, and if you like to go fast under canopy, well, you won't.

[Maddingo 21]

Use your gut, if you feel in control you are probably alright, couple that with opinions of people who saw you fly adn theese internet downsizing charts and the truth is somwhere in the middle.

I never jumped bellow 0.80, since I'm on the large side. The first real difference came when I went on a 1.1 wingload. from 0.7 to 1.0 it is pretty much the same. When you pass this mark things become faster, more responsive (more fun), dives get longer and flares get stronger but with smaller margin for error. I dialed in the "pop up" effect inside 4-5 jumps. For every new canopy I have jumped I use the same routine. I deploy around 1500m, go into full flight where I pay attention to angle of attack the canopy produces and the speed it gains, then I test the toggle turn capability, next I check the flare characteristics where I always use the 3 stage flare. This tells me where is the flare's sweet spot, next is the harness input responsiveness, then riser flare. At last I find the stall point of the canopy, so I get a rough idea how far can I push it during the final approach.

[ppolstra 0]

It's really a matter of wear you want to go. Don't feel like you have to get caught up in the downsizing game.

I have been jumping a 190 (loaded about 1.2) since jump 14. Occasionally, people will make comments about my "huge" canopy. I really don't care. It's my body that has to land under this canopy and I'm not itching to up my risk factors for injury. I think many people race to downsize without first fully exploring what they can do with their current canopies. Just my opinion.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

You don't have to downsize. Ever.
Many people do, some do it too fast. Some of those pay a high price for that choice.

I'm about your size, 160 lbs "stepping out of the shower", and I jumped a 190 from student status to about 200 jumps. Then to a 170, where I've been ever since. Little over 500 jumps now.

No plans to go any smaller. None.

I've spent my time on crutches (not skydiving related), I've seen too many people get hurt and I've had a couple close calls that could have been a hell of a lot worse had I been on something smaller.

I'm also over 50, and I don't heal as fast as I did when I was younger.

The 170 is "sporty" enough for me.

As was noted, "too conservative" is a lot, lot safer than "Not conservative enough."

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[danornan 64]

No one ever downsized to slowly, but many have downsize to fast. It's not a race and you have plenty of time. Use it to your advantage and learn how to fly safely, what you have. Get what you need, at the time, in your early career and fly it to the max. Listen to your instructor...

Dano