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Diezel

Potential total mal?

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Hi All, my reserve was due so I decided to pull the handle and see how it works with main packed in. Photos show what I ended up with.
Looks like the skirt of the reserve pc was tucked tight under the flaps and was preventing the pc from deploying. Am I overdramatizing things saying that Cypress fire would probably not save me with this setup? I tried to buck and shake it and all and was able to dislodge the pc but it still got stuck under the bottom flap and was hanging from the container. I managed to grab it with my hand and was NOT able to pull in out with the reasonable amount of force. I have a video of that which I will add later. What do you guys think? Happy Birthday to me? I'm wondering how many other clients of the same rigger are currently jumping this.

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You're not overdramatizing things.

That's one crazy, scary pack job. Definite total. Who knows, might might well have come loose in the air if one struggled and elbowed the container or rolled onto one's back to expose it to air. If one had a bunch of spare time...

Even if someone packed it without every having seen a Mirage manual, it shouldn't have packed like that, as a basic principle of rigging is that pilot chute fabric doesn't get so far away from the pilot chute that it jams between flaps and bag.

Maybe there's some senior rigger in the area who could be trusted to help deal with this? (I mean senior in the sense of knowledgeable & respected, not FAA Senior vs Master.) That is if you're not sure about wanting to confront the rigger.

While there might be some explanation why your rig is the only one like this, the packing appears so bizarre that (without further info), one would want all rigs packed by the rigger examined...

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Holy crap.

I just looked at the current Mirage manual.
(EDIT: I checked, the manual of 4-2016 is still current)

While the text is all in line with what I'm used to for a Mirage G4 for years and years, there are a few pictures where the pilot chute fabric spreads all over and covers the whole bag -- even while the flaps are being closed.


So yes, a newbie rigger could see that and end up with pilot chute fabric right out to the corners of the freebag, following the manual!!

Then when the flaps are closed and everything tightened down, edges of fabric become trapped.

I have to say, those pictures in the manual are pretty weird ...
and dangerous looking.

EDIT:
The 'old manual' that was around since the early 2000's or so, it had pictures that weren't as big or clear. The pilot chute fabric also ballooned out away from the PC cap a lot there, but there was just one photo like that, before side flaps closed, and it didn't seem to cover the whole freebag.

Thus the photos weren't nearly as deceptive in luring someone to pack pilot chute fabric to corners.

EDIT 2:
The 2016 manual, one of the pics:

[inline G4.jpg]

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piisfish

WAS it stuck “mechanically “ by the fabric caught under the flaps or was the fabric of the PC stuck to the reserve flaps by sticky cordura?



Mirage flaps are lined with parapack inside.
"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

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piisfish

WAS it stuck “mechanically “ by the fabric caught under the flaps or was the fabric of the PC stuck to the reserve flaps by sticky cordura?


It was stuck mechanically. I was able to release it only when I put it on the floor and pulled pc towards the top of the container

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Just my non-rigger opinion but had your AAD fired at 750' you would have had a total, followed about 4 seconds later with a fatality.
These are the kinds of posts that DZ.com users really benefit from.
Please follow up once Mirage Systems and you have figured out exactly what happened.
What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

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HPC

Just my non-rigger opinion but had your AAD fired at 750' you would have had a total, followed about 4 seconds later with a fatality.
These are the kinds of posts that DZ.com users really benefit from.
Please follow up once Mirage Systems and you have figured out exactly what happened.


-- Rigger felt like they were confused by the photo in the Mirage manual. They acknowledged the error and notified other clients with Mirage rig.
-- Mirage Sys is going to amend their manual with specific instructions not to tuck reserve PC fabric around the bag and under the flaps or something else to that effect.

That's what I have for now. Hope this post is useful and shows how important it is to actually read the instructions and not only look at the pictures. Shows value of applying common sense as well.

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Diezel

Rigger felt like they were confused by the photo in the Mirage manual.



I don't understand this mindset... Not only should it be obvious that wrapping RPC fabric around the free bag is a really bad idea (and I'm assuming that this rigger didn't do it for other containers), but if you're confused about something, how do you not seek the advice of another rigger or the manufacturer?!?

Just to clarify something, you said that you wanted to test reserve deployment with the main still packed in. Have you previously deployed this rigger's pack jobs successfully without the main, or did you have another rigger pack your reserve before?

Anyway, for all non-riggers who are now wondering whether their reserve contains a fatal packing error, Dave DeWolf's course is only one-and-a-half months away. :)

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HPC

Just my non-rigger opinion but had your AAD fired at 750' you would have had a total, followed about 4 seconds later with a fatality.
These are the kinds of posts that DZ.com users really benefit from.
Please follow up once Mirage Systems and you have figured out exactly what happened.



Yes, yes and yes.

Scary shit.

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Quote

These are the types of incidents that definitely score points for the Jumpshack Racer rig and its fully external reserve PC.



I'm petty confident that an incompetent, creative rigger could fuck one of those up very badly too. Stupidity + confidence = a broadly frightening combination.

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Someone that stupid or incompetent should not be packing reserves. But yes, even the simplest of systems can be f*cked up; however, by having the simplest, most idiot-proof system available you reduce the areas, and thus odds, of having yours screwed up. Skydiving is a sport of odds, and anything that you can do to put the odds in your favor is to your benefit. Skydiving is one of the few sports that has a high potential danger level, unlike say, tennis.
It's cases like this one that should have a jumper wanting to watch their rigger pack their reserve instead of just dropping it off. Two brains exercising common sense are better than one, and you don't have to be a rigger to see that tucking PC material around/under/behind the D-bag or reserve container flaps is a bad idea. And if your rigger feels uncomfortable being watched, then you should find another one. Just my two cents worth...
What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

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Was just wondering, I have one now that was packed twice (once after a save). An M5 which is listed for approx 330 cu. In. And had a 475 cu. In. 210 in it. I balked on that.
The owner sold the 210 and purchased an appropriate sized reserve for it after we discussed.
Glad your ok and your Rigger has checked his past customers.
Stay safe.
"You don't get many warnings in this sport before you get damaged"

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It is a total!...HOLY CRAP...that's when you elbow the shit out of the reserve container. I wonder if that would've released the PC but at 750' not enough time.
I'm not a rigger but have 12 of my own reserve packs logged under a riggers supervision and one save...by the way...the main was still in the container. I would never pack the PC like that.

Holy Shit!

hangdiver

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

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HPC

Someone that stupid or incompetent should not be packing reserves. But yes, even the simplest of systems can be f*cked up; however, by having the simplest, most idiot-proof system available you reduce the areas, and thus odds, of having yours screwed up. Skydiving is a sport of odds, and anything that you can do to put the odds in your favor is to your benefit. Skydiving is one of the few sports that has a high potential danger level, unlike say, tennis.
It's cases like this one that should have a jumper wanting to watch their rigger pack their reserve instead of just dropping it off. Two brains exercising common sense are better than one, and you don't have to be a rigger to see that tucking PC material around/under/behind the D-bag or reserve container flaps is a bad idea. And if your rigger feels uncomfortable being watched, then you should find another one. Just my two cents worth...

i think that if you feel the need to supervise à certificated rigger without having earned the title yourself, you are a control freak. If you don’t trust your rigger, find another one, or become a rigger yourself.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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You're missing the point.
Watching your rigger pack your reserve teaches you exactly how the reserve system works, from the time the pin clears the closing loop (or AAD cuts it) until the time the reserve inflates. Knowing the entire reserve deployment sequence can only help you in an emergency situation in which your reserve has an issue. You'd be surprised how many younger jumpers know so little about how their equipment is put together and how it works. One can never have too much knowledge about their equipment in this sport. It has nothing to do with paranoia or rigger trust.
However, having said that, even the best rigger can have an off day and screw up. It happens to the best, just as sometimes the best surgeons screw up, or the most experienced commercial pilots forget to perform a basic function and crash their flight. Case in point, I can think of four pilots (actually eight when you include the FOs) who forgot to set their flaps for takeoff and crashed, killing hundreds. Another example, the worst airline disaster in history was caused by an airline's check pilot (their most experienced 747 pilot) that killed 583 people.
It never hurts to have a second set of eyes. I did it with my gear, and my rigger welcomed my presence.
What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

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I am aware of the general lack of knowledge. Just organised a Gear knowledge/ maintenance and packing tips seminar. Most attendees weren’t even aware that gear manuals existed.
If a customer would like to watch ( and learn) how I inspect and repack his reserve, i gladly show him. If he wants to be there every time i will gladly send him to another rigger.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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flexiblefloor

Hello, This is Mirage Systems. Please contact us.



Have you been able to re-create this at the factory? This just boggles my mind how anyone could tuck or wrap enough of the pilot chute fabric around the reserve bag to cause this. The pilot chute spring is powerful, and once released, the flaps are not exerting that much pressure to the sides of the bag (are they?)

By the way, I think the rig's manual is clear enough on how to properly pack the reserve. When I pack a reserve that requires the pilot chute fabric be outside the spring and rolled up, it looks like the picture, and it works quite well.

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