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HPC

Packing Racer Reserves

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Hooknswoop

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i use the speedbag for my main for years. no issues at all.



How many unstable deployments in those years?

Derek V



Parachute Labs has a long history of coming up with solutions for non existent problems. Sometimes with questionable results. It often seems they are too clever by half.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Would you use a speed bag on your reserve?

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i would have absolutely no issues using the reserve speed bag. my rig is just old so does not have one.



Thank you for answering my question. I have one more;

How many unstable main deployments have you had in the years of using a speed bag with your main parachute?

Derek V

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But your concerned about people tightening the loops (which is tampering). How often does that really happen - especially if you make a point of letting the jumper know that if the pilot chute sits up then bring it back and i'll tighten it.

I have more concern with other riggers opening pack jobs that they didn't do to put in AAD's and then thinking its acceptable to reseal the pack job in direct violation of AC105.



Define it how you choose. I am concerned that an owner will tighten the reserve closing loop and increase the pull forces above the legal limit in an effort to fix a PC that has a gap. Then i am on the hook for a reserve with too-high pull forces and nothing to show I didn’t pack it that way.

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Not that I'm advocating it but just a thought (thinking out load) - is it possible to seal the free ends of the quickloop and then put them under the cap - that way they would likely be broken if otherwise used after the original pack job. Even paper seals could be used to seal the free ends together.



If the manual required some method of preventing someone other than the rigger that packed the reserve from tightening the closing loops without breaking the/a seal, that would address the issue. Tacking the excess does not do that.

Derek V

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Yes, I pack Racer reserves.
I had to develop a variation on Ghost Loops before I got the tool count within reason. Now my steel T-bodkins gather dust.

Holy thread-drift Batman!

Hint: the less we talk - about bumbling amateurs tightening reserve loops - the less likely they will hear about it. I suspect that is why Lodi Loops are banned in Canada.

I have repacked Racer reserves with 3 different types of freebag: rubber bands, Safety-Stow and Speed Bag. They all work. I suspect that Speed-Bags work best towards the high-speed edge of the envelope. The only risk is that rubber bands will rot out (after 2 years) in the California desert.
I suspect that Speed-Bags were developed to prevent line-dump (especially heavy Dacron suspension lines) on tandem mains. All the tandem manufacturers have experienced problems with line dump and they have all developed different solutions (e.g. Strong Anti Line Slump flap).

As for other rigger's opening a pack job (only replace AAD without a full inspection) then re-closing it with their seal ...... why worry. They just took responsibility. They just re-certified that reserve as airworthy. Now their licence is on the line if there is an accident.

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Will not. I agree totally with Hooknswoop. A million years ago I packed one or two. It was always this procedure: 1. tighten the loops. 2. turn the rig over to see of the pins are bending. 1. followed by 2. 1. followed by 2. over and over. Never knew if the pull was excessive.. and yes, I could detect a pin bending slightly. then...had to open it to release the tension and the pin was actually straight. Repack and go through 1., then 2. 1.. then 2. All to get the ridiculous exposed pilot chute cap to settle. And, really never actually knowing what the final pull force was. And...which pin was causing the problem. Two pins? Why? No, I wasn't good at packing them. Decided to stop. Not worth the aggravation. Should have charged double to pack because it took 3 times the time to do so.

And yes, I have watched others pack them and yes they do the same thing. They see if the pilot chute has settled on the top, then turn it over - sometimes 4 or 5 times to see if the pins are bending-flexing. (some riggers admit that is why they are checking, some do not admit it) One denied that was why he was tightening, then checking repeatedly. The other rigger admitted he was looking for pin bending and that was why he did the "tighten, turn over- tighten, turn over" to look at the condition of the pin- bent or not..." And even at packing demos at PIA it is the same. Tighten followed by turn over - tighten followed by turn over and a very long and close look at the pins to see if they are bending. Watch your rigger pack a racer. You will see this. Casually ask him why he is checking pins over and over. See if he will admit he is looking for pin bending. It is the procedure because of the bad design. Only have to do this on pop top designs. Why pop tops anyway? Why two pins? This design has nothing going for it and there is no reason for it in the first place. Not going to pack a bad design that leaves me with a question of the pull force.

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masterrigger1

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Like you, I'd love to hear from someone who won't pack them, and their reason why (other than the Canadian rigger who posted that 2-pin reserves are a separate rating that he doesn't have, and wouldn't be worth getting).



If it has a speed bag instead of a standard freebag...No I will not pack it.

The Speed Bag uses rubberbands instead of a stow pouch. This means that is is more prone to a freebag lock than the standard freebag simply because it has more locking stows.

It was not long after the release of the Speed bag that a girl died using one in NJ which attributed to the death according to the investigator on site.

If you end up with a mess like this, the last thing you want is a bunch of locking stows to have to pull out before you can get the canopy out of the bag.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FJp0Ku-6gg

or this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFSivezl80E



...or this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZADyz4tD9I



.

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mel with all due respect, and i agree with your other 'no goes' (Optimum reserves and Wings containers) but if you are going to dump a reserve into a spinning main you cannot blame the reserve bag line stow configuration. you are simply rolling the dice.

keep in mind john lebanc at PD recommends large rubber bands and double stowing ALL main stows. how many very experienced people have you heard telling new jumpers not to do this out of fear of bag lock. the bag lock thing is a myth. overall, it is more important to control the lines until line stretch.

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Thanks for your reply and detailed explanation. One other concern I have regarding 2-pins is that with an AAD both closing loops have to be cut before the pilot chute will launch, seemingly a disadvantage. If for some reason one cutter fails (missing blade from factory, faulty circuit from controller to that cutting unit, pyrotechnic charge not fully igniting, closing loop not fully cut, etc.) then you have a total. If it could be engineered to have a single, continuous closing loop then only one cutter need work for the PC to launch, thus changing a disadvantage to an advantage and one I wouldn't mind paying extra for due to the redundancy.
Riggers - your thoughts?
What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

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mel with all due respect, and i agree with your other 'no goes' (Optimum reserves and Wings containers)...


I must have missed something even though I read Mel's post but could you elaborate on Optimums and Wings?
What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

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Yes

This is kinda a weird thread so I will try to keep it on topic.

I am a Master rigger who Jumps a 2017 2K3. I also am a dealer for them. There are 2k3s all over the place around here. Sport rigs, Trainers and Tandems. One DZ I help rig for has beautiful 2017 Racer 2k3 Trainers. Very few 'old' Racers, lots of new. Suffice it to say being competent on this platform is important to me.

Last month 4 riggers at a local DZ came to my loft and we did a Racer packing lesson. Good times were had. I'll do those for free for any rigger who would like to become more comfortable with the system.

Did this answer your question?


*Please forgive any typos. I am on mobile so spelling doesnt count.
=========Shaun ==========


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Yes, and thanks for your reply.
If you have extra time sometime soon, I'd like to hear your take on the problem with the reserve PC gap that sometimes forms that needs to be closed by tightening the closing loops (during and after the repack), and also my concern regarding 2-pin reserve as it relates to dual AAD cutters.
What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

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HPC

Thanks for your reply and detailed explanation. One other concern I have regarding 2-pins is that with an AAD both closing loops have to be cut before the pilot chute will launch, seemingly a disadvantage. If for some reason one cutter fails (missing blade from factory, faulty circuit from controller to that cutting unit, pyrotechnic charge not fully igniting, closing loop not fully cut, etc.) then you have a total. If it could be engineered to have a single, continuous closing loop then only one cutter need work for the PC to launch, thus changing a disadvantage to an advantage and one I wouldn't mind paying extra for due to the redundancy.
Riggers - your thoughts?




Ok, I'm back in. The Racer loop IS a continuous loop. Cutting one side will allow the p/c to launch. However, it will be impeded to some degree by having to be pulled through the packed reserve and the p/c cap. A Lodi loop is a similar finger trapped loop that is easily adjustable by pulling the tail end tighter. It is not a generally accepted method because it is contrary to every manufacture's instructions.

There is still a disadvantage to needing two cutters. The cost of the second cutter. The decline in the popularity of Racers began at about the same time as the increase in the popularity of CYPRES loop cutting AADs. The extra cost was a large part of the reason. Racers were very popular before then.

Another factor was the increase in RSL use. The Racer RSL has been beat to death in another thread.....
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Thanks for your input. I talked to someone at P-Labs who said both loops had to be cut, but she could have been misinformed. I wouldn't argue with someone who has packed a Racer reserve.
Now I'm wondering if anyone, especially the manufacturer, has done deployment speed tests to see how much slower deployment takes in the event only one loop is cut or one pin clears its loop. If it's not appreciably slower then I wouldn't mind paying extra to have two cutters.
Has anyone packed a Reflex reserve and if so how does it compare to the racer? I believe it's a single pin external PC. Supposedly P-Labs designed the single-pin system that they ultimately rejected by Fliteline decided to use.
What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

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mel with all due respect, and i agree with your other 'no goes' (Optimum reserves and Wings containers) but if you are going to dump a reserve into a spinning main you cannot blame the reserve bag line stow configuration. you are simply rolling the dice.



Rob,

First let me say I respect your opinion and thanks for the comments.

You are absolutely correct with regards to rolling the dice.But here is the difference when you roll that dice.

The normal two stow freebag has a bungee that has a 50% greater chance of NOT having a bag lock. If one stow is captured and locked down and the second one is released, the bungee will pull out with the locked down stow and you will have canopy out of the bag.

With a Speed Bag you have to remove all of the locking stows to get the canopy out of the bag, If the bag is spinning around up in the mess, I think you would agree that mathematically it is less likely to happen. All it takes is one stow to get caught up and its over.

If you look at the videos I posted, both jumpers hand pulled the lines out of the freebag along with the two locking stows. This is what got the reserve out of the bag and into the air stream.

To simple things up a bit, let's say you have a cutaway, tumbled and got the reserve P/C wrapped around your foot. The system is now in a horseshoed configuration. Which system would you rather have; a standard freebag with two stows and a line free stow pouch or one with 10-12 rubber bands???

I personally am going to rest my chances with the standard 2 stow freebag every time.


MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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***
Another factor was the increase in RSL use. The Racer RSL has been beat to death in another thread.....
***
I've read a lot of that thread some time ago, but my understanding is that a single-sided RSL can be used on a Racer just like any other rig, even though John Sherman still supports the dual RSL.
What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

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Ok, I'm back in. The Racer loop IS a continuous loop. Cutting one side will allow the p/c to launch.



Incorrect. Attached is an image of a standard 6" Racer loop. It is tacked to the reserve pilot chute under the hat. Notice how the loop is tacked to the type 4 backing. Releasing 1 side will not allow it to 'slide through'. Both sides must be released. What the manufacturer told this gentleman is correct.
=========Shaun ==========


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I talked to someone at P-Labs who said both loops had to be cut, but she could have been misinformed. I wouldn't argue with someone who has packed a Racer reserve.




You probably talked to Nancy, and she IS NOT wrong. Both ends of the loop must be cut. Just because the thing would eventually launch does not mean cutting one end is enough. I was only explaining to you that it is a continuous loop.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Unstable

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Ok, I'm back in. The Racer loop IS a continuous loop. Cutting one side will allow the p/c to launch.



Incorrect. Attached is an image of a standard 6" Racer loop. It is tacked to the reserve pilot chute under the hat. Notice how the loop is tacked to the type 4 backing. Releasing 1 side will not allow it to 'slide through'. Both sides must be released. What the manufacturer told this gentleman is correct.




There you go. That's why you don't want me to pack your Racer. Even though I knew it was a continuous loop I did not know it was tacked to the cap.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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I talked to Suzie. Had it been Nancy, then I would have believed her as I'm well aware of her stature at P-Labs, and her accomplishments outside of work and in the sport.
When I first spoke of a continuous loop, it was with the implication that being continuous it would only need one side cut to free the PC. I should have stipulated a "continuous loop in which only one side needs to be cut" from the get-go; my bad.
A continuous loop in which both sides need to be cut has no advantage in being continuous that I can see. It may as well be two separate loops, each of which needs to be cut. Semantics.
You stated "Just because the thing would eventually launch..." - does this mean that if only one side is cut, the PC could still launch, but perhaps take several seconds to do so? Or, is the loop set up such that it physically cannot launch unless both loops are cut? Just seeking clarification.
What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

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You stated "Just because the thing would eventually launch..." - does this mean that if only one side is cut, the PC could still launch, but perhaps take several seconds to do so? Or, is the loop set up such that it physically cannot launch unless both loops are cut? Just seeking clarification.



When my only knowledge was that it is continuous, I assumed that it would eventually launch. Being tied down changes that. But even if what I first thought was correct, it would still need two cutters. Because the maker says it needs two cutters. The fact that I misunderstood the reason is irrelevant. As far as if it would still launch goes, maybe it would after some time. That time could easily be the rest of someone's life though.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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HPC

It's a shame then that they don't offer the standard bag to those who want them. It should be an option.



(Disclaimer) Yes I do currently work for the manufacturer (Disclaimer)

We do not have the patterns for the original bags to produce. ;)

Yea I'm just now chiming in because I hadn't seen these until now.

Yes I'd pack them, I own many of them Tandems included.

As it stands there is no other rig I'd trust more. I used to work for another manufacturer but still owned a Racer while I worked there and owned 2 rigs from that manufacturer. My racers are the most comfortable, and to me safest rig that is on the market currently. I know of several (26 at last count) rigs that the AAD fired and the reserve didn't open in time to save the individual. Those rigs cover every manufacturer in the US and some from out of the country other than ours.

I will pack every Racer out there if it has a reasonably sized reserve in it and the system is deemed airworthy after an inspection.

I have many rides on our system both real and intentional. I know better than most how well the speed bag works. I do think having a controlled line dispersement will have more positive results every day of the week. Do I believe that the speed bag is the only way to accomplish this, no. Is it currently the option we choose to use because its the version that we have tested it not only as a reserve bag but made several tens of thousands of jumps with it as a main bag before implementing it, yes. Can it be a bit of a pain to pack? Yes. Because we use a one size fits most for our bags instead of building a bag for the 75ish different size reserve containers we build some might be a bit on the snug side.

I haven't completely read through the thread so I haven't probably answered all of the questions but here's a start. Oh and if you want to include videos of people dumping into a rats nest and expecting a great result thats probably the worst outcome for any manufacturer to try to get out of. I stand by our system and it would probably perform as well or better than most. But when you take the reserve pilot chute out of the the equation there's nothing but trouble going to happen no matter what the manufacturer of the equipment.

Now you might ask someone their opinion of our system. There's only a few that have knowledge of our current system and that will say anything bad about it. But there are MANY out there who have never put their hands on our system much less have been even close to educated about or system that have a very LARGE opinion about our system. So I appreciate the input from everyone in this forum and have heard from many of you as to your likes and dislikes about our system I just wish that people would educate themselves about something before they create an opinion based on the opinion of another un-informed individuals.
Blue SkiesBlack DeathFacebook
www.PLabsInc.com
www.SkydiveDeLand.com
www.FlyteSkool.ws

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Thanks for your input and for ID'ing yourself as being with the manufacturer.
I guess it's been established that both reserve closing loops must be cut by the AAD in order for the RPC to launch. But this would seem to double the chance of a reserve total in the event of a missing cutter, closing loop not completely cut, charge not igniting fully, or issue with the signal from the control unit to the cutting unit. Along with the higher initial AAD acquisition cost and replacement cost due to use or shelf life of cutter units, this puts the rig at a disadvantage in my opinion. However, this could be turned into an advantage if the reserve system could be re-engineered with a continuous loop that only requires one of the loops to be cut in order to deploy the RPC. Has P-Labs looked into the feasibility of making this change? If done successfully, it could be possible to certify the rig for just one cutter, with a second optional cutter to provide redundancy for those jumpers willing to pay for the second cutting unit. Personally, I would be willing.
What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

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