pchapman 275 #26 November 6, 2017 QuoteFor me it's a RTFM issue that I don't need to understand. If the manual for my rig includes this detail Which manual? Many people don't care which side the brake line goes up, and on many canopies it makes only a tiny difference in angle. The brake lines go through the slider grommets, so until the slider is at the risers or later pulled down there can't be that much angular difference. I'm always interested if someone has an idea that's new to me, but I'm having trouble seeing why keeping the line to the canopy on the outside side of the toggles makes thht much difference. Maybe if one has lousy, loose toggles in the first place, where the slightest disturbance could knock them off the risers?? I suppose under the force of opening the line will pull the brake ring taut, with the line trying to align with the center of the ring. This will be more or less along the line of the riser - with only a tiny offset as the brake line goes up through the slider grommet. On most rigs the brake ring and the toggle keeper for it's tip are aligned, so yeah there could be side force on the toggle and keeper during opening, stressing the keeper. But it won't change that much with the line to the inside or outside side of the keeper. The tension might also try to twist the brake eye a little around the toggle -- trying to center it in the ring. So, yeah, there are some undesired stresses and forces going on around set brakes that can cause wear. But choosing to route the brake line inside or outside shouldn't have much effect. Certainly some people (including myself) try to give their brake line a tug after setting the brakes, so that any slack is taken up, avoiding too much friction from the brake eye on the toggle during opening. Just to help visualize the situation, attached is a capture from after opening. The guide ring is pulled a bit left as the brake line is on the left. During opening forces there probably was some side force against toggle stowed in its keeper. Although the brake line is on the 'inside' side, it pretty much follows the riser to go up through the slider grommet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicsoew 0 #27 November 6, 2017 keithbar I really like the high tech mounting system your buddy is using for his GoPro Me too Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #28 November 6, 2017 QuoteThe force on the brake lines comes from the outside. Routing the line straight up from the guide ring to the outside edge of your canopy keeps all the tension in a straight line - so all the force goes where it is designed to go (up) without an angle that could cause the toggle to twist/shift and come unstowed. As an example, if people are ripping out their toggle keepers, its usually on only one side and it's because they set both brakes to one side (i.e. excess to the right side, not always to the inside)... Ugh. I'm having trouble explaining it. If people are ripping out their toggle keepers, it is because they are setting their brakes above the guide ring and not below. The angle from the riser to the outer, trailing edge of the canopy is very low, especially on smaller canopies. Setting the brakes with the control line to the inside and excess to the outside does 2 things; 1- Reduces wear on the control line near the guide ring since the warm slider grommet isn't resting on it immediately after deployment, and, 2- Puts the excess control line deeper into the riser channel, help in by the risers, helping to prevent the excess control line from coming out of the container in freefall. QuoteLowers the risk of snagging the excess or sticking you hand through when grabbing the brakes. This would result in a knotted steering line If the excess is properly stowed (to the outside or inside), snagging or putting your hand through it shouldn't be an issue. Derek V Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #29 November 6, 2017 Quote1- Reduces wear on the control line near the guide ring since the warm slider grommet isn't resting on it immediately after deployment, and, I believe this is a superior argument to the 'angle' theory. +1.=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicsoew 0 #30 November 7, 2017 My buddy cam: https://youtu.be/8KsNRu6XEUo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keithbar 1 #31 November 7, 2017 Ahhhh no clicky i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keithbar 1 #32 November 7, 2017 Did he literally have that thing mounted with a rubber band around his forehead and a frap hat on top? That's some og don't give a fuck shit right there i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicsoew 0 #33 November 7, 2017 keithbar Ahhhh no clicky Copy - paste :D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicsoew 0 #34 November 7, 2017 keithbar Did he literally have that thing mounted with a rubber band around his forehead and a frap hat on top? That's some og don't give a fuck shit right there Literally...yes :D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 136 #35 November 7, 2017 nicsoewMy buddy cam: https://youtu.be/8KsNRu6XEUohttps://youtu.be/8KsNRu6XEUoscissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicsoew 0 #36 November 7, 2017 piisfish***My buddy cam: https://youtu.be/8KsNRu6XEUohttps://youtu.be/8KsNRu6XEUo Oh thnx :D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytribe 16 #37 November 7, 2017 QuoteIf people are ripping out their toggle keepers, it is because they are setting their brakes above the guide ring and not below. Not always - I've seen them ripped out on a reserve that uses elastic toggle keepers and from the video and instructor comments it opened on-heading without any brake firing or turning. I will say that the most common cause of blown keepers is incorrectly set brakes though and have seen this often with low experience jumpers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #38 November 7, 2017 QuoteNot always - I've seen them ripped out on a reserve that uses elastic toggle keepers and from the video and instructor comments it opened on-heading without any brake firing or turning. What caused them to rip? Derek V Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicsoew 0 #39 November 7, 2017 skytribeQuoteIf people are ripping out their toggle keepers, it is because they are setting their brakes above the guide ring and not below. Not always - I've seen them ripped out on a reserve that uses elastic toggle keepers and from the video and instructor comments it opened on-heading without any brake firing or turning. I will say that the most common cause of blown keepers is incorrectly set brakes though and have seen this often with low experience jumpers. I never experienced this kind of problem until I got this rig! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytribe 16 #40 November 7, 2017 QuoteWhat caused them to rip? I'm not exactly sure but they were double brake lined on the reserve, with additional loop through the cat eyes on brake lines. The elastics were in good shape and this was a subterminal cutaway, no spinning or high speed drama. The toggles were held with velcro and this was in great shape at last inspection/repack. The container was not old / worn out. This was the instructors first cutaway and not used to large velcro toggles so releasing the brakes was a little different from normal rig. But either way the net result was the elastics were torn on one side and the partially torn on other. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #41 November 7, 2017 QuoteI'm not exactly sure but they were double brake lined on the reserve, with additional loop through the cat eyes on brake lines. The elastics were in good shape and this was a subterminal cutaway, no spinning or high speed drama. The toggles were held with velcro and this was in great shape at last inspection/repack. The container was not old / worn out. This was the instructors first cutaway and not used to large velcro toggles so releasing the brakes was a little different from normal rig. But either way the net result was the elastics were torn on one side and the partially torn on other. I don;t understand what you mean by "double brake lined on the reserve, with additional loop through the cat eyes on brake lines." I suspect the brakes were set incorrectly on this reserve, causing the torn elastic toggle keepers. It is possible the control line was routed under the toggle tab between the guide ring and elastic or the brakes were set about the guide rings. Derek V Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytribe 16 #42 November 7, 2017 Absolutely guarantee brakes were set correctly as per the manual. The reserve has double brake lines connected to a single toggle. There aren’t that many reserves that have double brake lines. The cloth loop was intact meaning it didn’t break also. If it wasn’t on the correct side of guide ring I may think that incorrect stowage may have been an issue. On mains with no brakes set for opening the elastics still break. These still go through a guide ring. So there is not a single answer. I simply am saying there are possible other causes however small this may occur. In the case of the double brake line setup the manual clearly states how the toggle / line should be stowed. I’m guessing there is a reason why the manufacturer specifically states this, if only to avoid potential problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #43 November 7, 2017 I'm not understanding how the force on the control line is getting to the elastic keeper. Derek V Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicsoew 0 #44 November 7, 2017 Redy for the jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicsoew 0 #45 November 15, 2017 Tested it on the ground - result - unstowing on opening. Left brake unstows as it goes by the reserve - friction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 136 #46 November 15, 2017 Did you get your toggle keepers tightened by your rigger ?scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicsoew 0 #47 November 16, 2017 piisfishDid you get your toggle keepers tightened by your rigger ? In progress! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites